Why the limitations?

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Hello,

First off I want to say that I absolutely love this game.  I purchased it on my ipad and it's brought back a whole lot of fond memories of when I played MTG in middle/high school about 10-15 years ago.

My only question here is the fact that we are limited to specific decks built with specific combos with a limited amount of unlocks, and why?  If WotC gave me the opportunity to purchase a different bundle/option to unlock all cards to the deck builder I would be so pleased.  I can understand the fact of playing against AI and what the AI is programmed to do and understand, but why are we limited by AI?  Why can't we take all of the cards together that we have unlocked and choose to build a deck with any card we have available?  The deck could only be available for Multiplayer use.  No spending time on programming AI but a TON of time spent on this game building fun and great decks.

It's not like we are able to trade these cards and everything would be fair considering everyone has the same cards/unlocks.  It just opens up so many more opportunities and builds.  I swear, I spent more of my time, hours of my time building a deck, than actually playing it.  The real thrill is seeing what you put together at play and everything coming together to win a game.  Not playing a deck that people will recognise and see what the playstyle is when the 2nd or 3rd play rolls around.

I would pay well for an addition such as this.  And I'm sure many people would.  That would be including more and more expansions.  I'm not in or near a community that has a get together for this, and my wife would kill me if I purchased enough playing cards to even do so.  I'm just thinking MTG is missing out on the biggest thing they have to offer.  Complete customization with a minor amount of cards they already offer.  I'm dieing to build 'my own' decks to play.  Playing pre-built decks with unlocks that further support it will just get tiring and old.  WotC has something special they could offer to the community if they would embrace the fact that it wouldn't hinder the physical sale of cards.
The devs have stated that duels is specifically tailored to new players, and they want to keep it "accessable" that way.  I've yet to play paper magic as I don't have the money for it but I personally like the balanced system that duels aims for and I think that there would be a lot of over-powered combos if you were able to swap cards around.  (Imagine Leliana with both demonic tutors) 
This comes up a lot on these forums, and the simple answer is this: DotP is a gateway drug to paper Magic and MtGO.

Here's the deal. They already have MtGO for the PC which is a complete digital experience for MtG. DotP is designed from the ground up as a mini DotP experience. Low cost investment for a relatively large dip into MtG. DotP will never be a full MtG experience for many reasons. Costs for production versus profit from a one time purchase model and the possibility that too much content in DotP will detract from sales in paper Magic and MtGO (Both being more profitable microtransaction models) being chief among them. I don't expect to ever see a console version of MtGO, as maintaining it would just not be fiscally possible.

TL;DR, DotP is Magic Lite. Just be happy WotC is finally recognizing the potential DotP has. We got a loooot of content this year.
Close your eyes. Fly away. In the land where dreams, all are true. IMAGE(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/distilledpoizn/StupidJefferson.jpg)
Limited card pool + free deck editing + internet = Playing against slight variations of the same uberdeck everytime
Hello,

First off I want to say that I absolutely love this game.  I purchased it on my ipad and it's brought back a whole lot of fond memories of when I played MTG in middle/high school about 10-15 years ago.

My only question here is the fact that we are limited to specific decks built with specific combos with a limited amount of unlocks, and why?  If WotC gave me the opportunity to purchase a different bundle/option to unlock all cards to the deck builder I would be so pleased.  I can understand the fact of playing against AI and what the AI is programmed to do and understand, but why are we limited by AI?  Why can't we take all of the cards together that we have unlocked and choose to build a deck with any card we have available?  The deck could only be available for Multiplayer use.  No spending time on programming AI but a TON of time spent on this game building fun and great decks.

It's not like we are able to trade these cards and everything would be fair considering everyone has the same cards/unlocks.  It just opens up so many more opportunities and builds.  I swear, I spent more of my time, hours of my time building a deck, than actually playing it.  The real thrill is seeing what you put together at play and everything coming together to win a game.  Not playing a deck that people will recognise and see what the playstyle is when the 2nd or 3rd play rolls around.

I would pay well for an addition such as this.  And I'm sure many people would.  That would be including more and more expansions.  I'm not in or near a community that has a get together for this, and my wife would kill me if I purchased enough playing cards to even do so.  I'm just thinking MTG is missing out on the biggest thing they have to offer.  Complete customization with a minor amount of cards they already offer.  I'm dieing to build 'my own' decks to play.  Playing pre-built decks with unlocks that further support it will just get tiring and old.  WotC has something special they could offer to the community if they would embrace the fact that it wouldn't hinder the physical sale of cards.



What you're proposing has been discussed by players before and is a regular topic especially for Duels players that have a history with Magic the Gathering. That just isn't what the Duels experience is meant to be... at least for the time being. For those who want to experience the full range of cards that Magic has to offer, there are two options (as DistilledPoison said) - 1) Play paper MtG or 2) Create a Magic Online account

Magic Online does pretty much everything you're describing in your post. You build a collection of cards by trading, playing tournaments, or purchasing them from the store. Various card formats are available. There's a full deck editor with the ability to browse, search, and filter through every Magic card in the game. There's no AI in MTGO, so every game is against another human. 

Admittedly, there's a higher learning curve for new players when it comes to MTGO (which Wizards plans to improve). If you want to check it out and want some help, feel free to either send me a direct message or post your questions in the MTGO New Player forum


Sean Gibbons

Associate Community Manager

Official MTG Twitter: @Wizards_Magic Official MTGO Twitter: @MagicOnline

What you're proposing has been discussed by players before and is a regular topic especially for Duels players that have a history with Magic the Gathering. That just isn't what the Duels experience is meant to be... at least for the time being. For those who want to experience the full range of cards that Magic has to offer, there are two options (as DistilledPoison said) - 1) Play paper MtG or 2) Create a Magic Online account.



What about for the people who want more than what Duels offers, but don't want to experience the full range of cards that Magic has to offer?

An analogy I've used before: DotP is similar to a paper magic intro deck, which is fine for casual play with friends around the kitchen table.
MTGO is like the full catalogue, which can be very intimidating for inexperienced players, and very expensive for anyone. To say nothing about the issues many people take with its interface.

But, where is the digital-space equivalent of buying a handful of event decks and playing them semi-competitively at FNM?
DotP certainly doesn't offer this. MTGO can offer this if you know how to get it, but it doesn't offer the smoother, more visually-appealing interface of DotP.

There's room for a middle ground that offers an extended DotP-style experience, and many people who aren't interested in MTGO but would be willing to pay a premium for such an experience.


It just seems very strange to me that Wizards is completly ignoring this potential market because of some absurd belief that everyone should be satisfied with either Duels or MTGO, when there are clearly people asking - frequently - for something that's more than one but less than the other.
What about for the people who want more than what Duels offers, but don't want to experience the full range of cards that Magic has to offer?


Harsh reality response? Too bad.

Sorry I have to do that but this is no different than any other game that has ever been released wherein players say "too bad you couldn't--" or "wouldn't it be nice if--" or "I'd totally pay for--".

As for ignoring a potential market, I have no evidence either way, but it's not unreasonable to think that they've explored this idea and found it not to their liking. They are a pretty huge company and I imagine they have people that do that kind of marketing research, projections and number crunching.
It just seems very strange to me that Wizards is completly ignoring this potential market because of some absurd belief that everyone should be satisfied with either Duels or MTGO, when there are clearly people asking - frequently - for something that's more than one but less than the other.



I think there's more to it than just that.  On one hand you have a customer base who sees cards like Pernicious Deed and wants to play decks with cards like that, but doesn't want to pay $25 for 1 card.  On the other hand you have a company who indirectly profits from cards like Pernicious Deed and doesn't just want to "give away" those cards in a program that they can be used without discretion.

Imagine if you could build your own deck and Natural Order ($30) a Child of Alara ($3) and then search for a Progenitous ($20).  Now that's about as flashy a play you could make.  Wipe every permanent off the board at once, followed by a 10/10 Protection from Everything.  How many people are going to actually dole out the money to make a deck where that's possible?  That deck would be in the $300-400 range.  Even if Wizards of the Coast doesn't directly profit from the sale of individual cards on the secondary market, you know they made a killing in Booster Pack sales so that someone could get those cards to sell you in the first place.  Why would they cut off that profit line by giving us everything we want in a $15 game?

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

It just seems very strange to me that Wizards is completly ignoring this potential market because of some absurd belief that everyone should be satisfied with either Duels or MTGO, when there are clearly people asking - frequently - for something that's more than one but less than the other.



I think there's more to it than just that.  On one hand you have a customer base who sees cards like Pernicious Deed and wants to play decks with cards like that, but doesn't want to pay $25 for 1 card.  On the other hand you have a company who indirectly profits from cards like Pernicious Deed and doesn't just want to "give away" those cards in a program that they can be used without discretion.

Imagine if you could build your own deck and Natural Order ($30) a Child of Alara ($3) and then search for a Progenitous ($20).  Now that's about as flashy a play you could make.  Wipe every permanent off the board at once, followed by a 10/10 Protection from Everything.  How many people are going to actually dole out the money to make a deck where that's possible?  That deck would be in the $300-400 range.  Even if Wizards of the Coast doesn't directly profit from the sale of individual cards on the secondary market, you know they made a killing in Booster Pack sales so that someone could get those cards to sell you in the first place.  Why would they cut off that profit line by giving us everything we want in a $15 game?


I'm actually a bit embarrassed that I haven't hit this point myself in all the times I've tried to answer this question.

Nicely done Sixty.
mbarrassed that I haven't hit this point myself in all the times I've tried to answer this question.

Nicely done Sixty.



Thank you.  I just wanted to make a statement that might finally put this discussion to rest.  Maybe we should bookmark this and just redirect people to it in the future.


The autocard just tipped me off to something.  The play I described above doesn't work with the old wording of Natural Order.  I'm glad they erratad it.

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

At some point they will add monthly DLC cards that everone can buy and deck editing. Maybe not now or even a year from now but at some point. They would make so much money if they did.
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What I'm trying to get at here is that the amount of cards they released is great.  However no players will be able to trade these cards for others, or sell them for a profit.  This is a small portion of what all of MTG is.  Why not allow us to use all of these cards as we see fit and any possible DLC they sell down the line if we are willing to pay a premium for it?  I don' thave the 100's of dollars to throw into MTG to get a decent deck which would be required if I wanted to play MTGO.  I'm sure most others don't either.

It was said that this DotP was more of an introduction to MTG and I agree with that.  But it doesn't take long to get passed that and want just a bit more.  That bit more is where MTG really takes place.  The time spent making a deck of your own and playing it is where the true addiction comes from.  Winning with that deck is what builds your pride and confidence.  I'm not asking for every card in the MTG realm to be usable after paying $15.  I am asking to be able to use what I've unlocked in DotP across the board for a premium.  Whether it is a small monthly fee or if it is a one time purchase.

Many new comers may be ok with what decks are offered.  But once they experience the full ability to build a deck, they won't understand what MTG is and how truly fun it can be.  If WotC really wanted to get people into paper MTG or MTGO, they would offer that essential part of the game.  And please don't tell me the 30 card unlock is anything close to building a deck from ground up.

If you all think the possible card combos with the current deck's cards are OP then maybe they could release a "build your own deck" content patch for a fee that allows us to go through a few hundred commons/uncommons/rares to put together our own decks.

Big problem is now days is that people are too easily satisfied and bring down the others who ask for something that's not improbable.  Why not ask for more?  It not only gives the company ideas to throw around, but it shows that their consumer base is hungry and willing to pay for their content.  Too many people take 'asking' as whining, and that only prevents companies from stepping up and offering that much more of a service.  That extra service is what brings companies to the top and eventually brings them that profit they are reaching for.
Big problem is now days is that people are too easily satisfied and bring down the others who ask for something that's not improbable.  Why not ask for more?


We do. And we're told it's not going to happen. You were told in this very thread by a Wizards of the Coast representative that it's not going to happen.

It's not about being satisfied with what we have, it's that this question was asked the day Duels of the Planeswalkers was released in 2009 and it has been asked every day since. You're simply asking it for the first time.

Tell me, since there have been upwards to half a million DotP players at any given time, and this topic has come up frequently over the last three and a half years,  how much of this concept do you think they've not heard yet?
@Dazone - I agree with you, and I bet we'll see more options with each DotP release.  It won't be anything drastic, but over time it will add up (like manual land selection in 2013).  Wizards is in it for the money, and sooner or later they'll realize they stand to make more by increasing their console player base.
The Planeswalker that introduce full deck editing will be the last planeswalker i will buy. If i find out that it has full deckediting,they one before will be the last planeswalker i will buy.
I am VERY happy with the limitations in Duels.  I am that casual player who probably benefits the most from the game.  I have no interest in getting into either version of regular Magic (sorry WOTC but my bank account and time limitations are against me).  I do enjoy the mechanics and get just enough deck contstuction to keep me happy.

I greatly appreciate the low barrier to entry, high barrier to master.  I think that full customization would be a greatly reduce the ammount of new players as that is a pretty intimidating thing.  It would also giving people willing to pay for this feature a great advantage, especially against new players.

I can sympathize with your situation.  You want more, but not the more to the extent/cost that MTG offers.  I guess that makes me part of your problem.
I suggested a compromise on a different thread that, while it would never happen, would be an interesting idea:

imagine being able to combine 2 decks and only 2 decks together, combining the card pools of those two decks to add versatility and adventure to deck building in DotP. It could be a separate game mode, with saveable decks, for a premium, or perhaps a monthly fee. It would afford the player 420 different deck options instead of 21 and create some seriously cool, strong, and diverse decks without offering DotP players too much "equity" that WotC would be losing money through other MTG mediums by offering this mode (in theory). It would bring some artistry to the deck building in DotP that is missing in the current iteration. An added aspect of MTG that is missing in DotP currently. Because, for me, the biggest fear in jumping from DotP to paper magic is the aspect of deck building which I feel I still know next to nothing about in such an open sort of format. And I will never be the kind of person that net-decks as it just ruins the whole thing for me...

Again, more of a musing really than a realistic suggestion as I don't believe that this suggestion or anything like it would come to fruition in the future, but it's fun to dream... 
The whole "customization would kill the game for new players" problem is actually really easy to solve, you just have to add a few restrictions to it.

1. Accessible only when you beat the Revenge camplain on Planeswalker difficulty.
2. Customized decks can not be used in ranked or unranked matches, only against the AI and people on your friends list.

There, done. New players can learn in peace without having to worry about getting stomped on by a vastly superior deck made up of like 5 different ones, and the people that want to customize their decks can do so without bothering anyone. I know it's not everything the customization people want but more then close enough imo.

I know that it's very unlikely to happen, nor do I expect it to, I just wanted to point out that hurting new players won't be a problem with some simple thinking.

To the OP: I think they have exactly what you are looking for in MTGO. As part of the new player packet for $10, you get a bundle of Planeswalker cards (200 or more) which are copies of cards released in DotP. There are additional bundles of these cards (with different content) that can be bought for a minimal amount (no more that $5-$10 each). These are special cards that can't be traded and can't be used with normal MTGO cards that you can buy or trade for.

But what you can do is build any constructed deck you want from all of the Planeswalker cards you have and play against other MTGO online players that have done the same. It is a special constructed mode so that the duel can only be Planeswalker deck against Planeswalker deck.

It sounds like exactly everything you wanted. You can build the deck anyway you want and play against others who have done the same.

The whole concept was designed to ease the transition from DotP to MTGO.
To the OP: I think they have exactly what you are looking for in MTGO. As part of the new player packet for $10, you get a bundle of Planeswalker cards (200 or more) which are copies of cards released in DotP. There are additional bundles of these cards (with different content) that can be bought for a minimal amount (no more that $5-$10 each). These are special cards that can't be traded and can't be used with normal MTGO cards that you can buy or trade for.

But what you can do is build any constructed deck you want from all of the Planeswalker cards you have and play against other MTGO online players that have done the same. It is a special constructed mode so that the duel can only be Planeswalker deck against Planeswalker deck.

It sounds like exactly everything you wanted. You can build the deck anyway you want and play against others who have done the same.

The whole concept was designed to ease the transition from DotP to MTGO.


Exactly.

And if you ask ANYONE at Wizards of the Coast, that's exactly what they'll tell you:

Your comments and ideas will be passed along to make sure they are considered for future implementation, but for now, you should really check out Magic: Online. It has all the features you're looking for already.



To the OP: I think they have exactly what you are looking for in MTGO. As part of the new player packet for $10, you get a bundle of Planeswalker cards (200 or more) which are copies of cards released in DotP. There are additional bundles of these cards (with different content) that can be bought for a minimal amount (no more that $5-$10 each). These are special cards that can't be traded and can't be used with normal MTGO cards that you can buy or trade for.

But what you can do is build any constructed deck you want from all of the Planeswalker cards you have and play against other MTGO online players that have done the same. It is a special constructed mode so that the duel can only be Planeswalker deck against Planeswalker deck.

It sounds like exactly everything you wanted. You can build the deck anyway you want and play against others who have done the same.

The whole concept was designed to ease the transition from DotP to MTGO.



Thank you for explaining that so well, Rollerdog, I should've mentioned it myself. 

Sean Gibbons

Associate Community Manager

Official MTG Twitter: @Wizards_Magic Official MTGO Twitter: @MagicOnline

I can understand the fact of playing against AI and what the AI is programmed to do and understand, but why are we limited by AI?


Who says we're limited by the AI?
With cards like Reanimate, Rise from the Grave, Bribery and Mind Control it's more or less possible to create any combination situation you would want - especially if you factor in 2HG and FFA games - never mind any deck in the game taking control of a creature with Glen Elendra.  Plenty of ways to cast an opponent's Sorcery or Instant, too.  The AI seems to handle all such combinations just fine.  Likewise, the AI is capable of handling them just fine on its own when using those cards itself.
I can understand the fact of playing against AI and what the AI is programmed to do and understand, but why are we limited by AI?


Who says we're limited by the AI?
With cards like Reanimate, Rise from the Grave, Bribery and Mind Control it's more or less possible to create any combination situation you would want - especially if you factor in 2HG and FFA games - never mind any deck in the game taking control of a creature with Glen Elendra.  Plenty of ways to cast an opponent's Sorcery or Instant, too.  The AI seems to handle all such combinations just fine.  Likewise, the AI is capable of handling them just fine on its own when using those cards itself.



Speaking of GY shenanigans with the AI.  I've seen the AI play a Repluse on an Archaomancer just so it could play the Archeomancer to get the Repluse back into his hand.  I'm not that confident in the AI being able to handle ANY situation.

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

Maybe it just needs the draw. I've seen the AI do strange things with Griselbrand
I'm baffled that no one said that MTGO has the worst interface ever. I'll never play that game again.

It's a card game. WOTC can keep the database and just change the engine.
I'm baffled that no one said that MTGO has the worst interface ever. I'll never play that game again.

It's a card game. WOTC can keep the database and just change the engine.



We are.

Sean Gibbons

Associate Community Manager

Official MTG Twitter: @Wizards_Magic Official MTGO Twitter: @MagicOnline

Just out of curiousity, for those people who play either Magic Online or IRL, how much do you spend on it (monthly, yearly, per occasion)? I used to play a long time ago (4th edition time frame) and just could bring myself to spend the money it seemed to take without making a serious part of your life (and drive cost down using trades, etc.). I just happened to see some comments about cards costing $25, so it feels to me it hasn't gotten much better, but maybe some more casual forms are easier on the wallet? Any comments?
I've played Magic Online a fair amount over the last month and spent around 100 dollars on it.  Which is a lot, and I've significantly scaled down my participation since, and I will probably only do 1-2 drafts per month.  The only thing I've done is play in draft events, which are very fun.  They have an entry fee of 3 booster packs and 2 event tickets, which is 14 dollars total.  It isn't that difficult to win at least 2 packs back (I've done it in the vast majority of my drafts, and sometimes I've actually come out ahead) so that offsets the cost, plus you keep all the cards.  So I have a significant Return to Ravnica library and if I chose, I could probably trade most of the cards for a substantial number of event tickets and keep on playing a bit for free, but I have it my mind that my Sphinx's Revelation that I got in the last draft will someday help me create a good constructed deck so for now I'm keeping all of the cards.
Just out of curiousity, for those people who play either Magic Online or IRL, how much do you spend on it (monthly, yearly, per occasion)? I used to play a long time ago (4th edition time frame) and just could bring myself to spend the money it seemed to take without making a serious part of your life (and drive cost down using trades, etc.). I just happened to see some comments about cards costing $25, so it feels to me it hasn't gotten much better, but maybe some more casual forms are easier on the wallet? Any comments?



I have actually been thinking of starting out in paper MTG, much the same way you have and am actually thinking of starting today... What my plan is, is to take part in drafts first as a cheap way to get started and gain some cards in my library. The draft I am going to tonight is at a local comic book shop and it costs $16. you get to keep (essentially) 3 booster packs worth of cards that you use to make your deck in the draft, so you arent paying for nothing, and you can pull some good cards that might even pay for the draft for you. (like a shock land which would be worth around $10). I think there are also prizes for a few top finishers... Anyway, thats what I am planning on doing. After a few drafts you will have some cards to work with for other formats without spending too much, and you can recoup some cash from reselling money cards that you don't necessarily need.

Check out IzDaisho on Youtube to see some live drafts he recorded which gives you a good idea of what to expect, both of drafting in general, and the current RTR landscape.