Guide Color Standard workspace

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"We have 14 standards, and they are all junk. Let's make a new standard"
"Crap, now we have 15 standards, and they are all junk!"
 

I have been looking at the varying ways that people depict the quality of powers.

One of my favorites is in the Ranger Handbook:

"Red - Garbage, or completely overshadowed by another option.
Purple - Situationally useful, but overall pretty meh.
Black - OK. You could do worse than pick this.
Blue - Good stuff. You probably want this.
Sky Blue - You want this. Period.
Gold - Why haven't you taken this yet? A defining choice for a build, or even the whole class."



I wanted to figure out what kind of standard I would use in my guides. Here is what I have so far that I could use help with.


Best Eliminates multiple threats to your party. These powers either elminate at least two enemies outright or with support. 
Twin Strike, Flame Spiral, Thicket of Blades (by popular demand)
 
Almost Best Eliminates a threat to your party, or allows you to fight a threat uncontested through a means of extreme denial. 
Summon Succubus, Lead the Attack

Black These powers are not overshadowed, but they do not eliminate a threat. 

Red Overshadowed by another power


I am unsure how to sparse healing powers. 

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 



THICKET OF BLADES

If there's an established standard, why deviate from that?  Especially one that has more granularity than the one you're proposing?
THICKET OF BLADES

ToB isn't even on the chart. It's like a rainbow of awesome that shines down on all the other puny powers.



THICKET OF BLADES




You win this thread.
Guys, let's not fall into this trap. By constantly mocking him, he appears as the victim instead of the bully he is.


To the OP: each handbook comes with a short description of what the writer thinks is a good measure of the colors used. As is his or her right to do.

For any guide you write, you can come up with your own color scheme, though 4 seems not very precise. On top of which, from your description, it seems you already have a guide in mind. How about you stop trying to improve upon other peoples work, and try to impress us with yours? 
Forward-thinking cut is sky blue not gold.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Forward-thinking cut is colorless. It is somewhere around "doesn't work as intended" or "broken".

If there's an established standard, why deviate from that?  Especially one that has more granularity than the one you're proposing?



I am not aware of any established standard. Where is it?

When I look they are all just random, I grabbed this one to show the difference as an example:

Gold: Not taking this is wasting your potential
Sky blue: Likely better than any other Class Power
Blue: A Good power, worth the feat
Black: You could do worse
Violet: You need a very good reason for taking this
Red: No.  Just No.

But neither work really for my guides, yet. I mean I don't understand the differentiation between violet powers and black powers for example.

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

You're comparing a class guide to the spellscarred guide. Amusingly, they're ridiculously similar.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
And most handbooks use 6 colors with those descriptions. Perhaps deviate in the minute description, as per preference of each handbook writer, but it is 6 colors, and you suggest that for the guide you are about to write that 4 will suffice.


So I would suggest you start writing on that guide, and through the maasive amounts of powers and feats you will want to judge, as available from level 1 through 30, you might find that 4 categories just does not offer you the differentiation you seek.



However, since the original posters are unlikely to change their description or rating of powers on your suggestion, this entire idea has zero worth.
         
I am not really oppose to 6, I just don't know what to use for the other two or if these listed are going to give the dispersion I was hoping for. 

I am trying to get approx. 1% best color, 2% the second, and so on until the last.

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

As per Baldhermit: write the guide you want to write (I suggest offline, via a text editor of some sort), and then after rating a bazillion powers, see what ratings you need.  Then post it. 

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima




THICKET OF BLADES




Welp, thread over guys, lets go home.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Bajatmerc: if you write a guide, as I already said, feel free to use any color scheme you choose. Though so far most guides seem to go from gold, sky blue, blue, black, purple to red.


Any handbook already written is not going to be re-written, so this entire thread is a venture in uselesness.



As already stated: please start writing a guide, and then you will find 4 colors just does not offer enough, and the 1%, 2% and so on rule you mention will come down to either 6 or 7 different colors to be used, depending on the size of the last group.
And on that note, if you want us to change standards, do work for it. Gold didn't exist until I wrote Into The Breach: A Warlord's Handbook, at which point it became universal over time because people realized we could use a rating for options without compare. You're not gonna get a change unless you do work and show off how solid your idea is. Stop asking and start doing!
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Well I had complaints about the rating last time. So I wanted to get the rating first. But I haven't gotten one phrasing suggestion yet, so I guess I will do as kilpatds said. 

Thanks Armisael for developing the color scheme.  

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

But neither work really for my guides, yet. I mean I don't understand the differentiation between violet powers and black powers for example.



Gold are the best of the best - you get one of these at say 3rd level, you very well might keep it to 30th. Sky Blue are the best. Dark Blue are significantly better than average. Black are average. Red suck.

Purple are the powers that aren't easily classified because they might have some option that really makes them tick for the right build. Sidhe Lord theme as an example is generally not all that great. But...if you're an action point enabler who can spend 2 action points per combat? Wow, just wow.

That's really all there is to know... 
I had said that, but then there was some debating of which was which. Then a call for quantitative came. 

I appreciate the help, I am really really really bad at making guides so far. Check this one out community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

I tried to make a fighter that didn't use powers with the melee keyword.
Every at-will they have uses that keyword lol. Couldn't find a way around it. 

Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.

( I can't believe what they did to the forums. The sterile lack or color is rather depressing. )

 

I think that is one of the reasons kilpatds suggested you write something offline first, make sure it works, before you start annoying other people with something they have long known does not.

And if you want to disabuse people of a notion they hold dear, and you know to be wrong, you have to be absolutely sure, and be able to prove it. 


In other words, if you want to mean anything to this forum, stop posting, and start writing.  
In addition to the standard gold/sky blue/dark blue/black/purple/red, many of the guides also use green for 'unrateable' or 'campaign dependent'.  It might go on powers that have no quantifiable combat use, like a diplomacy booster or scrying power, or those that are written so oddly that massive table variation is the norm (like something that is obviously a typo, but not corrected by official errata; a power that dealt "2d87" damage or the like).
Fer what it's worth, there any many plausible rating systems.  You could go Roy G Biv (so Purple (aka violet) is better than Blue).  You could go Red/Purple/Black/Blue/Sky Blue like LDB originally did.  You could add Green and Gold as per current conconsus.

Whatever.  That's an irrelevant detail.

The important part is a document that helps people understand the game, and how to use it to accomplish their goals.  And if it's to be posted in this forum, we're gonna assume that those goals are mechanical.  Everything else is just gravy.

Now, something like 60% of handbooks that are started are not finished... which is the real reason for my "offline" suggestion.  You look like less of an idiot posting a partial handbook than posting 10 reserved posts and only ever partially filling in the first.  It is an INSANE amount of work to do a decent handbook.  Nuts.  Something like a full time job for a month to get a good document started.  So make sure you'll actually do it by not posting anything until you're at a good stopping point... where the document is already useful.

And once you've done that, you'll have a really good feel for what you want for ratings.  It's an almost irrelevant implementation detail, in the grand scheme of things.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

And how the ruleset keeps changing.  I know the Hunter handbook is hideously out-of-date, mostly because relevant support hasn't really changed, there's just a whole bunch more stuff to rate as 'pretty much useless' (with the exception of Tidal Spirit Shot).

And yes, Baja: if you write a guide, feel free to use whatever colours you see fit.  Expecting the rest of the forum to change based on your ideas when you've consistently shown a: no desire to change based on ours, and b: limited and almost invariably incorrect understanding of the game rules... just isn't going to work.

So you do what you want (ideally elsewhere), and we'll do what we want, and we can live and let live.  K?

E: Also, Baja, do you genuinely believe that there's popular demand for Thicket of Blades to be involved?  Can you not tell that when people mention that, it's a joke?
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
I have not noticed any significant inconsistencies within each handbook so I find this discussion pointless, unhelpful and a poor attempt at criticising the quality of work within each handbook.

To question the integrity of the people who have posted such valuable contributions is offensive.

To nitpick for sake of pretending to know better is patronising. 
Apr 15, 2012 -- 10:54AM, Bohrdumb wrote:

Baja threads are now my favorite threads to read! It's like he's trolling himself.

Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here

Apr 15, 2012 -- 10:54AM, Bohrdumb wrote:

Baja threads are now my favorite threads to read! It's like he's trolling himself.




We use the colors because they work, and because they've become universal.  To anyone that's spent any time in this forum, I can say "look at xxxx's class guide and check out the sky blue powers for that level" and they'll know what I'm talking about.  The current colors work.  To change them, you'll have to present an argument that they don't and that something else will work better.
The current colors work.  To change them, you'll have to present an argument that they don't and that something else will work better.



+1. Unless the idea that you have is so brilliant that we all basically go, "Wow, that's the color arrangement we want to use. In fact, the players no longer posting to CharOps are inclined to go through all their posts, just to change all the colors, that's how brilliant it is!"

It isn't likely to add clarity at all, just confusion. You can drive on the left hand side of the road or the right hand side of the road, but unless you convince everyone to drive on the same side, there's going to be a lot of accidents...
Well I had complaints about the rating last time. So I wanted to get the rating first. But I haven't gotten one phrasing suggestion yet, so I guess I will do as kilpatds said.

As erachima noted, I very much doubt it was your rating system people were complaining about. Your example handbook of the no-melee fighter simply is not CharOp material because it's not optimizing anything, it's just trying to implement a wierd character concept. That kind of thing really belongs in CharDev.

Your previous threads have indicated that you don't really have the system mastery to make a guide that would be of much use here, but your ideas might be much better received in a different forum.  Furthermore, there are just very few (if any) exploits left to document. New 4e content has slowed to a trickle and most things are already covered. Some existing handbooks could certainly do with some upgrading, but - no offense - you're not the person to do it. Neither am I, for that matter.
Well I had complaints about the rating last time. So I wanted to get the rating first. But I haven't gotten one phrasing suggestion yet, so I guess I will do as kilpatds said.


The complaints weren't about what colors you picked.  The complaints were because you were trying to make a comparsion between things that can't be compared.  I mean, I suppose you could, but it's almost by definition not helpful to anyone, ever.

The point behind the class guides in general, and the ratings in particular, is to help people with the choices involved in creating a character build.  They answer specific questions.  "Which level 3 Swordmage encounter power should I choose?" as an example.  Your 'guides' are nothing more than your personal opinions about general effectiveness of things absent any context.  It doesn't actually do anything.  The word itself, "guide," matters in this case.  You're not guiding anyone, because nobody actually travels the path that you're writing about.

Until you understand what I mean by this, your guides will never get a good reception here.  Because they're just simply not useful, to anyone.  I don't mean to be mean or rude when saying this, but I have to be blunt because you really need to understand.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

I believe in you Scatterbrained

*hugs*
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
This reminds me of the first episode of the Dilbert cartoon, where the incompetent boss hands out the task to come up with a new product and the first thing they are supposed to do is figure out a name. 
If there's an established standard, why deviate from that?  Especially one that has more granularity than the one you're proposing?



I am not aware of any established standard. Where is it?
...



Yeah so , the 3e C.O. board started using something
similar to this , in say mid 2007.  The poster and guide
writer "lordduskblade" crystalized the format over here.
Sheer volume + absolute quality = win.

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 


I believe in you Scatterbrained

*hugs*

But oh, Zelink, my one true wish is for you to believe in yourself.

/release white doves

I believe in you Scatterbrained

*hugs*

But oh, Zelink, my one true wish is for you to believe in yourself.



ROFL I think Zelink already has that adequately covered.
Yeah I'm a huge badass
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Yeah I'm a huge badass

Well, your avatar is someone that took genocidal space-cuttlefish 2 tries to kill.

Hey, Shepard is still alive THANK YOU VERY MUCH
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Hey, Shepard is still alive THANK YOU VERY MUCH

In one ending.

Guess his Epic Destiny has a good self-rezz feature.

Bargle wrote:
This is CharOp. We not only assume block-of-tofu monsters, but also block-of-tofu DMs.
 

Zelink wrote:
You're already refluffing, why not refluff to something that doesn't suck?
Hey, Shepard is still alive THANK YOU VERY MUCH


Yes because Sheppard is Chuck Norris in space and he is so tough that not even death can defeat himSurprisedLaughing
Hey, Shepard is still alive THANK YOU VERY MUCH

In one ending.



Even that is a plothole, they said you'd die anyway.