Charms in Mana Mastery

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I think my general build of Mana Mastery is fairly solid. I don't actually think there's too many ways to go wrong with it IMO outside of removing too much ramp, or removal. My main point of contention is regarding the Charms. (Bant Charm, Naya Charm, Jund Charm).

I know there is a general MM Decklist and Strategies, But I wanted to start a separate thread dedicated to only a discussion on: 

1. Are the Charms are good?
2. Which Charms are better than others? 
3. Which are worth running and which are not (and in what amount each)?  
4. Why?

Or anything else "Charm" related you can think of. let me know what you all think, Peace... 
i run both naya charms...all abilities pretty useful.  bant charm is good for a sideboard.  Jund charm is good for mirror.  Since most games are just one game and not 2 out of 3, the Naya is good enough for me.  
I think all 3 Charms are auto-includes x2.

I'd rank them Naya > Bant > Jund

I mostly use Jund Charm as an instant-speed sweeper. The other modes are very situational, but can be useful against some decks.
Naya Charm is indispensible; 80% of the time I use it for the graveyard recursion, but the 3rd mode can buy you an extra turn or remove all blockers.
Bant Charm is amazing removal (gets rid of regeneration and indestructible creatures), but can also be artifact removal or protect one of your creatures from an instant-speed removal.
Just like every single card MM gets they are all extrodinary.  Bant charm is good against people who think they have any chance to counter you with a burn deck or discard deck, naya further smears on that strat with graveyard fetch, and jund is yet another cheap board sweaper with a situational ability attached that's perfect against a select few decks you may come across.
i run both naya charms...all abilities pretty useful.  bant charm is good for a sideboard.  Jund charm is good for mirror.  Since most games are just one game and not 2 out of 3, the Naya is good enough for me.  



WHAT?  -.-
2 damage on all creatures or put target creature on the bottom of the library for instant speed is sideboard for you?
Pyroclasm or a removal that kills everything and gets rid of it is sideboard?
I think my general build of Mana Mastery is fairly solid. I don't actually think there's too many ways to go wrong with it IMO outside of removing too much ramp, or removal. My main point of contention is regarding the Charms. (Bant Charm, Naya Charm, Jund Charm).

I know there is a general MM Decklist and Strategies, But I wanted to start a separate thread dedicated to only a discussion on: 

1. Are the Charms are good?
2. Which Charms are better than others? 
3. Which are worth running and which are not (and in what amount each)?  
4. Why?

Or anything else "Charm" related you can think of. let me know what you all think, Peace... 



1. Absolutely.

2. Bant > Naya > Jund, but they're all good.

3. All of them if you can find room. My current build only has one Jund charm, simply because I couldn't find anything else to cut.

4. Bant Charm: Because it's an absolute All-Star.
Artifact destruction is always handy, especially at instant speed. There's nothing quite like blowing up a Panoptic Mirror in response to someone tapping out to imprint Time Warp.
Putting a creature on the bottom of it's owner's deck is usually more effective than simply killing it; It's easily the best instant-speed removal that MM has.
It's also the only counter that MM has access to. That alone should be reason enough to run it.

Naya Charm, while not as good, still provides excellent utility.
3 damage is enough to deal with some annoying creatures. Not as effective as putting it back in the deck, but sometimes just killing them is good enough.
The ability to return any card from your graveyard to your hand at instant speed is the real winner here. If all of your creatures get milled, this and All Suns' Dawn are the only ways to get them back. If all of your Islands get blown up, this and Charnelhoard Wurm are the only ways to get them back. If you need to get rid of a creature quickly, Naya Charm can even get Bant Charm back.
And tapping all of an opponent's creatures, while certainly not as good as blowing them all up, still has its applications. The fact that it's instant speed means you can shut down pesky hasted creatures like Demigod of Revenge long enough to play an actual sweeper.

And speaking of Demigod, I find Jund Charm is worthwhile just for the graveyard exiling, which also shuts down Body Double, Memory Plunder, Sewer Nemesis and friends, the Phoenixes, and slows down Chancellor of the Spires, and so on and so forth.
Two damage to each creature isn't amazing, but against goblins, PK, ED, Dimir, Selesnya, Azorius, some builds for CW or AW, and any number of other utility creatures, sometimes two damage is enough.
And if you have nothing better to do with it, two +1/+1 counters can sometimes shave a turn off your opponent's clock.

Charms have typically never been amazing in terms of their individual abilities (though there are some exceptions). It's the flexibility they offer that makes them good. And in this deck, where the only other instant is Prophetic Bolt, they really shine.
Alright, lots of love for the charms. But I know there are people out there who think the Charms are a waste of space. Don't be shy. I heard you people in other threads. Which charms suck, and why? Need to get some balanced feedback...
Alright, lots of love for the charms. But I know there are people out there who think the Charms are a waste of space. Don't be shy. I heard you people in other threads. Which charms suck, and why? Need to get some balanced feedback...


Where did you hear this?

More importantly, was it said before the decks were released?
The charms are all very good, but I don't classify all of them as auto includes, because this deck has so many good cards, and it's difficult to adjust the land/ramp/creature/removal ratios just right. I believe most people play this deck with too few creatures, and I personally only run the 2 bants charms unless I know I'm against goblins, peacekeepers, or selesnya. (In which case I would sideboard in 2 jund charms for 2 vindicates)

Naya charm is very very good, but I just couldn't find room for it in my build. Bant is by far the most useful in my opinion. All three of its abilities are extremely valuable. Jund only has 1 good use, the sweeper ability, and Naya's best ability is the recursion, with the semi-sleep ability as a distant second. I dunno, I think Bant is auto include and the others are good, but not required. I'd rather throw in a few more creatures.
i run both naya charms...all abilities pretty useful.  bant charm is good for a sideboard.  Jund charm is good for mirror.  Since most games are just one game and not 2 out of 3, the Naya is good enough for me.  



WHAT?  -.-
2 damage on all creatures or put target creature on the bottom of the library for instant speed is sideboard for you?
Pyroclasm or a removal that kills everything and gets rid of it is sideboard?



think about it...what would you need to use jund for.  those who know how to play against MM don't drop all their creatures and balls out attack...MM has too many sweepers for them already.  they would lose card advantage big time and probably never recover quick enough.  as for bant, putting a creature on the bottom of a library is ok, but i never had to use it.  between sweepers, pulses and vindicates, plus the ability to recur them with naya charm or all sun's dawn, you don't need it.  

like i said, all you need is naya charm...3 dmg to any early creature, pulling something good out of the graveyard, or buying yourself an extra turn by creature death or swinging for the win by tapping their creatures
i run both naya charms...all abilities pretty useful.  bant charm is good for a sideboard.  Jund charm is good for mirror.  Since most games are just one game and not 2 out of 3, the Naya is good enough for me.  



WHAT?  -.-
2 damage on all creatures or put target creature on the bottom of the library for instant speed is sideboard for you?
Pyroclasm or a removal that kills everything and gets rid of it is sideboard?



think about it...what would you need to use jund for.  those who know how to play against MM don't drop all their creatures and balls out attack...MM has too many sweepers for them already.  they would lose card advantage big time and probably never recover quick enough.  as for bant, putting a creature on the bottom of a library is ok, but i never had to use it.  between sweepers, pulses and vindicates, plus the ability to recur them with naya charm or all sun's dawn, you don't need it.  

like i said, all you need is naya charm...3 dmg to any early creature, pulling something good out of the graveyard, or buying yourself an extra turn by creature death or swinging for the win by tapping their creatures




Naya charm is the worst from all 3 imo.
I actually don't like the Charms: all effects are ridiculously overpriced, just to balance out that you get to choose between effects. Just imagine if all Charms were split in 9 cards instead (1 effect each), but with the same mana cost: those cards would become the new Chimney Imp. Would anyone run a 3CMC spell without any colorless cost just to counter an Instant only? Or to deal 3 damage? Etcetera... And that's even ignoring the harsh color requirements going even further than just simply no colorless cost.

I don't care about flexibility, I care about effectiveness. I add cards because I already have a plan for them, not for "Well, I'll just see later in the duel what I want to do with that card". Give me something like Sprouting Thrinax instead (same cost as Jund Charm): instead of flexibility, it gives effectiveness.

Still, they're good in Mana Mastery, simply because the deck lacks low-CMC cards, and you can't say "I remove Jund Charm and add Pyroclasm", to name an example.

Anyway, my prefered order:
1. Bant Charm: This actually has the good kind of flexibility to me: get rid of a certain selection of cards, simple as that. I also like it doesn't dump a destroyed creature in the grave (in fact: doesn't destroy it at all), but dumps it on the bottom of the deck instead.
2. Jund Charm: Its effect don't work together like Bant Charm's effects do, but it still has a focus: it has multiple ways to deal with creatures: either by burning the whole field, dropping it on your attacker/blocker as a surprise, or by clearing the grave when your opponent uses cards that revive from the grave. They're all quite situational though, as the damage/boost is low (though the burn does hit everything, of course), and not many cards revive from the grave.
3. Naya Charm: Meh. It has the highest CMC-for-effect ratio and is the most random one, that should say enough.

Which to run: Bant Charm and Jund Charm x2, because of earlier mentioned reasons of Mana Mastery. Naya Charm depends completely on your build.
I run one of each charm, because I like how versatile they are.
I think Naya Charm is the weakest of them though, and if I were to remove one of them, this would be the one.

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I actually like naya charm the best. In 2hg i run all of them as the games go long and the flexibility is amazing. In 1v1, bant charm is ok, jund charm is not too good but naya charm basically reads put my best card or whatever i need back into my hand. I would pay 3 for that alone but you also get the tap effect and removal spell if needed.
All charms are auto-inclusion. First of all, they are INSTANT, which have built-in card advantages. Of course they are not the best charms ever printed in Magic history but they are the only instant spells you can use in this deck other than prophetic bolts.  You cannot soley rely on sorcery speed removals to sustain the board, especially for a deck with only 1 life-gain card. Pyroclasm cannot deal with haste goblin swarms but Jund Charm/Naya Charm can.
All the Charms are good because of their flexibility. Card compression can be quite the sought after attribute to help open up other deck slots. That flexibility comes at the cost of color intensity though. This normally isn't a problem, but can delay casting opportunities potentially reducing their overall effectiveness.

I actually like Naya Charm the best. Regrowth feels extremely important to the deck, and that'll stay relevant until pretty much the end of the game. Otherwise, three creature damage is a solid amount for the early and mid parts of the game and still useful in the end game against some decks. If that doesn't work, you always have the option to tap down creatures to Fog as a desperate measure, or added bonus of setting up an alpha strike to get past some blockers. It just feels like this Charm has the most useful options throughout all parts of the game.

Bant Charm is my next favorite, but I feel it has a sense of redundancy in effects next to other cards. The instant card counter is the most unique option that isn't available anywhere else, but the first two modes are generally covered by Maelstrom Pulse and Vindicate. Still, there is that bonus of bottom of library creature tucking, which is super important in the right situations. So that can make running one or both copies of this card a very strong addition to your deck, while having the added bonus of instant protection.

Jund Charm feels like the biggest sideboard card of the three, which makes it the most situational and potentially the weakest. Sweeping is the "main" mode, but such low damage is mostly relevant in the early game or against select few aggressive match ups. That's when the color intensity can be the biggest hurdle in casting though. The other two options are also extremely niche, as graveyard exile only matters a small amount of the time (but will rock when it does) and the perm +2/+2 tends to be a situational game closer by helping you finish a game one turn earlier. This isn't something I go into most games thinking I'll use effectively, so I run only one of these at the moment.

Just my thoughts from the 1v1 perspective. I could see myself running all of them in 2HG though. You'll generally play the support role, so having all options available looks useful.
Brodo and Steve pretty much spell it out correctly.  Run both Bants and both Nayas and drop the Junds. 

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

I agree, basically its naya = yes, bant = maybe (meta call, i am not running right now), Jund = no
Those late game tricks are just the icing on the cake. You can do whatever you want to win at that stage, which is not that important. Against most decks, you will win anyway if you could make it to late game.  The crucial moment is usually when you clear the board and try to resolve your first allied stragety. If you are allowed to do it without any pressure, you could just snowball to victory. Jund charm is perfect as an early sweepers, which allows you to wipe the board at the end of your opponents turn and resolve your big spells the next turn. I am running all of them but I prefer seeing the Jund one in my hand rather than the other two. It is always good against aggro decks like CL, PK, GM, GG, ED, SaS, CM, OD, AS(did I mention it could kill a stalker/saint when they try to enchant him with an indestructibility?),  . And its graveyard hate ability is invaluable facing CW, GM, BoF, AW,  MM.
The problems with Naya are:

1. Its "return 1 card from the grave" ability is grossly overpriced, more so than the effects of other Charms (and yet it's the best ability of Naya Charm)
2. By the time Naya Charm does its thing, you're already steamrolling. A card that just overkills is useless. Mana Mastery has tons of other cards to replace what just got killed or used. And the Conflux strategy is ridiculously mana-intensive.
A 3cc regrowth at instant speed is not overpriced in this deck.  Even if it was, it wouldn't really matter because MM needs regrowth.  Think of the weaknesses of MM and Naya addresses a lot of them.

1) low creature count - "I win" cards like Progenitus and Empyrial Archangel can be countered with a diabolic edict.  Naya gives you the chance to cast them again.
2) haste creatures - Naya gives you an ability to counter haste creatures.  For example, let's say they cast Demigod of Revenge and it brings up a second Demigod of Revenge. Naya will let you tap on their turn and sweep on your turn.  Being able to do 3 damage at instant speed also gives you some options for outright removal of cards like blazing specter or lightning elemental.
3) land destruction - You only have 3 islands in the deck.  If your land gets milled or destroyed for whatever reason, you can retrieve them again.  If you're just short of casting that fatty, you can regrow cultivate.

MM is a control deck that wins late.  That means that whatever you choose to regrow will likely be an awesome card and you get the flexibility of choosing which awesome card it is.  How is that bad?

The main reason to play Bant is to deal with regenerators.  The artifact removal ability is highly overrated, as you have access to 3 vindicates, 2 maelstrom pulse, and pernicious deed.  I've never found myself in a situation thinking I need to cast it for the artifact removal.  Being able to counter an instant is OK, but which instant are you really concerned about?  My main concern would be direct damage X spells which mostly come in the form of sorceries anyway.  In most situations countering an instant creature removal spell isn't going to net you a whole lot, as they likely have other creature removal that they are holding onto.  

For me, Jund is the worst one by far.  The only real ability that I like is that you can potentially sweep goblins a turn earlier.  Graveyard removal might be good against a couple of decks, but against most decks it will be a garbage ability.   
 
 
 
The best use of Naya IMO is;

Recurring Vindicate in the early game to screw people's lands up. Especially important in the mirror.
Recurring Bant Charm for an emergency counterspell.
Recurring Lavalanche to essentially win the game. Not many can survive two in a row, let alone three!
Recurring Conflux to pull All Suns' Dawn which can recurr Conflux and your Naya Charms, which can recurr Conflux. You'll essentially never lack the cards you want when you get on that train.



Stevo, did you post your MM build in the MM deck list thread? I couldn't find it, but I'm interested to see what you're running.
The problems with Naya are:

1. Its "return 1 card from the grave" ability is grossly overpriced, more so than the effects of other Charms (and yet it's the best ability of Naya Charm)


Regrowth is a 1 Sorcery. Making it an instant would cost minimum 1 more. That's not at all overcost, much less grossly. 
Not to mention  "Tap all creatures target player controls". 3cmc is very reasonable for that effect. In Mana Mastery it means your opponent can't attack or can't block (occasionally both). Enter Maelstrom Archangel or Vorosh, the Hunter for example.

Same with Jund by the way, Pyroclasm is a 2cmc Sorcery. To make that an instant would be a minimum 1 more mana.

With Bant, the only type of removal that's worse than putting a creature on the bottom of it's owner's library is exiling it. Considering Unmake is 3cmc I don't see Bant being "Grossly overpriced" either.  

if you're talking mana intensity, by the time you will be using it you'll have one or more of each colour anyhow. Mana Mastery makes them easy to play.
2. By the time Naya Charm does its thing, you're already steamrolling. A card that just overkills is useless. Mana Mastery has tons of other cards to replace what just got killed or used. And the Conflux strategy is ridiculously mana-intensive.


Other decks have removal too.
See. This is the discussion I needed... Thanks fellas. Gives me some food for thought. Keep it up if you wish...
 
Stevo, did you post your MM build in the MM deck list thread? I couldn't find it, but I'm interested to see what you're running.


I hadn't, but here it is if you're interested. (61 cards)



I should state I use this mainly in 3/4FFA. I never play 1v1, and when I do use this in 2HG I tend to replace the Day of Judgment with Jund Charm as I don't want to kill my ally's creatures (which can normally survive a Jund Charm) and the graveyard removal is vital against Talrand, who is always a presence and a threat there.

Not hugely different form most builds I'd wager, except I prefer the Prophetic Bolts to Broodmate Dragons. The damage is incidental, I just use them to grab the cards I need. If I was the put the Broodmates back, they'd no doubt replace the Defiler and the Charnelhoard. Both nice creatures, but not essential to what I do.

The all-stars are actually Kaervek and Lavalanche - they win me most games. Progenitus is nice, but is harder and later to cast and needs a turn to attack, and usually a second to finish them. Much better when partnered with the Sphinx for a one-shot kill. Prince of Thralls barely ever gets to live very long, but if he does, he'll win you the game outright too.



I suppose this may be less of an issue when playing multi-way as opposed to 1v1, but do you find you ever encounter "creature-screw" In your games?
Stevo, did you post your MM build in the MM deck list thread? I couldn't find it, but I'm interested to see what you're running.


I hadn't, but here it is if you're interested. (61 cards)



I should state I use this mainly in 3/4FFA. I never play 1v1, and when I do use this in 2HG I tend to replace the Day of Judgment with Jund Charm as I don't want to kill my ally's creatures (which can normally survive a Jund Charm) and the graveyard removal is vital against Talrand, who is always a presence and a threat there.

Not hugely different form most builds I'd wager, except I prefer the Prophetic Bolts to Broodmate Dragons. The damage is incidental, I just use them to grab the cards I need. If I was the put the Broodmates back, they'd no doubt replace the Defiler and the Charnelhoard. Both nice creatures, but not essential to what I do.

The all-stars are actually Kaervek and Lavalanche - they win me most games. Progenitus is nice, but is harder and later to cast and needs a turn to attack, and usually a second to finish them. Much better when partnered with the Sphinx for a one-shot kill. Prince of Thralls barely ever gets to live very long, but if he does, he'll win you the game outright too.



I'm surprised to see that you don't run all of the Rampant Growths. I was running only 4 Terramorphics and no Evolving Wilds, with all 8 ramp cards and 2 Pale Recluses. I recently removed the Recluses because I kept running in to the bug where you can't cycle them at all, and now I'm a little wary of getting mana screwed. You never have problems ramping with only 6 ramp cards?
I found 6 was the sweet spot. Any less and the deck became too unstable. More, and I ended up getting them as dead draws in crucial situations.

Can't afford to skimp on the fetchlands IMO as you need that early forest, and Cultivates are just that more valuable than Rampants IMO. Ideally I'd like no Rampants, but the deck became way to unreliable without them.

6 ramp and 6 fetch works for me. Fixing is more important than ramping for me. You have enough control to last a long time against everyone but Mill. The ramp will come eventually, but you need fixing early.



Yeah, I think you are right. I've been in a few games now where I've had cards in my hand early on that I just couldn't play due to incorrect mana fixing. So if I make that change, now I'm running this:


erdana; font-size:12px; border-collapse:collapse" cellspacing="0" border="0">


"kAzE MM"


61 Cards. 26 Lands (20 basic; 6 other).


A library for Mana Mastery (Rainbow)


erdana; font-size:9px">Library code: ((((((((~~ATzVfH~~kAzE MM~~1=ocVh4~~3?=f=2r~~2Bob1X9~~4=4muC2~~3B28G3W~~1?eLMbr~~2BeKc=w~~1BHPAHe~~1AYbc44~~1?1Omr1~~2A6qsez~~1=qe3qO~~3==WM18~~2?JDdWS~~4?2vriJ~~1BEoJ0C~~2?5l705~~1BeAZzN~~1?gJ1y0~~1=bsgK2~~2AY10xV~~1=hIuBJ~~1=vhBhE~~))))))))



erdana; font-size:12px; border:1px solid #40ae44; border-collapse:collapse; text-align:left" cellspacing="0" border="0">


 Creatures 




   cost  
■■
 Fusion Elemental 
 8/8 
  




 Maelstrom Archangel 
 5/5 
  




   cost  
■■
 Broodmate Dragon 
 4/4 
  




 Defiler of Souls 
 5/5 
  




 Vorosh, the Hunter 
 6/6 
  




   cost  

 Empyrial Archangel 
 5/8 
  




 Sphinx of the Steel Wind 
 6/6 
  




   cost  

 Progenitus 
 10/10 
 ...
... 




 Direct damage 




   cost  

 Kaervek the Merciless 
 5/4 
  




 Removal 




   cost  

 Maelstrom Pulse 

  



■■■
 Vindicate 

  




 Sweeper 




   cost  

 Pernicious Deed 

  




   cost  
■■■
 Day of Judgment 

  




 [/m]m="hp://ommny.zad.om/e/all/modle/om/foe_e/mley/zad/_mana.pn" al="" />[m]  cost  

 Lavalanche 

 [/m]m="hp://ommny.zad.om/e/all/modle/om/foe_e/mley/zad/_mana.pn" al="" />[m] 




 Savage Twister 

 [/m]m="hp://ommny.zad.om/e/all/modle/om/foe_e/mley/zad/_mana.pn" al="" />[m] 




 Card gain 




   cost  

 All Suns' Dawn 

  



■■■
 Allied Strategies 

  




 Land fetch 




 Land 
■■
 Evolving Wilds 

 [/m]Land[m



■■■■
 Terramorphic Expanse 

 [/m]Land[m




   cost  
■■
 Rampant Growth 

  




   cost  
■■■■
 Cultivate 

  




 Utility 




   cost  
■■
 Bant Charm 

  



■■
 Naya Charm 

  






erdana; font-size:9px">Get the deck planner used to make this table.>>>





 

I've been trying to find room for the prophetic bolts, but just can't bring myself to take out any more creatures. The Naya charms were a recent inclusion for me after I playtested it a bit more, and I think I'm keeping them in. Not sure how I'm going to make the bolts work. I like having more creatures, and it was hard enough to take out the recluses.

I really just need to play this deck more, it's a lot of fun, but not nearly as OP as people make it out to be, imo. It's not nearly as strong as Golgari was before the 2nd deck pack came out, and not as strong as Liliana was before the expansion. Goblins and Mill are pretty horrible matchups alot of the time, and Rakdos/Chandra can both force enough dmg through to ruin your day.
Thread is getting derailed a bit I think... Partly my fault. Anyway, check out the MM deck list and strategy thread for discussions broader than the charms in the MM deck please...
A 3cc regrowth at instant speed is not overpriced in this deck.  Even if it was, it wouldn't really matter because MM needs regrowth.  Think of the weaknesses of MM and Naya addresses a lot of them.

1) low creature count - "I win" cards like Progenitus and Empyrial Archangel can be countered with a diabolic edict.  Naya gives you the chance to cast them again.


 



Progenitus always gets shuffled back but the Archangel is important to get back if it somehow dies
Not to make it a MM discussion thread but this deck thrives on card draw and graveyard recur.  If you aren't running all 4 Allied Strategies, All Sun's Dawn and both Naya Charms, you're doing it wrong IMO
Not to make it a MM discussion thread but this deck thrives on card draw and graveyard recur.  If you aren't running all 4 Allied Strategies, All Sun's Dawn and both Naya Charms, you're doing it wrong IMO


ALL 4?

Screw that, 2 Allied and 1 Conflux are better than 4 Allied.  Add the Prophetic Bolts and they allow you to draw 1 of your next 4 cards.  More valuable than most people think.

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

Not to make it a MM discussion thread but this deck thrives on card draw and graveyard recur.  If you aren't running all 4 Allied Strategies, All Sun's Dawn and both Naya Charms, you're doing it wrong IMO



I almost totally agree.
Graveyard recursion is this decks greatest feature and you should run every source.
But as far as draw goes, I think 3 Allied Strategies+1 Conflux is enough.

Just my opinion....

As far as charms go I run all of them because I love flexibility. The nayas are a must run because of the grave fetch. The bants are a must run because of the counter ability and putting a creature on the bottom of the library has so many applications. I've even used the tap effect to win a game or two. The jund charm is far more useful than people are giving it credit for. In the mirror its awesome. Your opponent wants cards back from his yard? NOPE! He wants to trade creatures? NOPE! Also think of all the counter decks to MM. GG, GM, PK, BF all have plenty of 1 and 2 toughness creatures to wipe with the 2 damage. Why wouldn't you want to run 2 of a card that helps you in your worst matchups. Yeah its less effective in your better matchups but who cares, you already have the advantage there! Lastly on the jund chrarm, I've done the +2+2 on the worm trick many times and its awesome! It almost becomes like a sudo naya charm in that case!

  
When dj_btrue enters the forum exile all bad attitudes.
I don't use Bant Charm because of the blue in the casting cost. I almost never have islands on the board early in the game, so it decreases the usefulness of the charm for me.

The Naya Charms were auto-include. I was initially on the fence about Jund Charms. I ended up taking out the Savage Twisters and replaced them with the Jund Charms. They only do the fixed 2 damage to each creature, but they are more versatile w/ the situationally great graveyard exile ability and it is instant speed.
Not to make it a MM discussion thread but this deck thrives on card draw and graveyard recur.  If you aren't running all 4 Allied Strategies, All Sun's Dawn and both Naya Charms, you're doing it wrong IMO

ALL 4?

Screw that, 2 Allied and 1 Conflux are better than 4 Allied.  Add the Prophetic Bolts and they allow you to draw 1 of your next 4 cards.  More valuable than most people think.

I swapped over to a 2/2 split a couple days ago between Allied Strat and P.Bolt (always ran the Conflux too). I'm liking the change so far.
After many games using this amazing deck, my personal opinion is that the Naya are essential, the Jund are very useful, and the Bant are neglegable if you run all sweepers and Vindicates. It doesn't matter that Talrand may ROR your creature when you have sweepers. It doesn't matter if it gets stolen either as Maelstrom or Vindicate will take care of this. The times when you have an indestructable out and a Bant is the only thing that will take care of them is minimal and again you can just use a Vin or MP on the indestructable card and sweep. Why do I keep Jund in? Well, instant 2 damage board sweep for one, exile Talrands or Orzhov's graveyard for two.
i run both naya charms...all abilities pretty useful.  bant charm is good for a sideboard.  Jund charm is good for mirror.  Since most games are just one game and not 2 out of 3, the Naya is good enough for me.  



WHAT?  -.-
2 damage on all creatures or put target creature on the bottom of the library for instant speed is sideboard for you?
Pyroclasm or a removal that kills everything and gets rid of it is sideboard?



think about it...what would you need to use jund for.  those who know how to play against MM don't drop all their creatures and balls out attack...MM has too many sweepers for them already.  they would lose card advantage big time and probably never recover quick enough.  as for bant, putting a creature on the bottom of a library is ok, but i never had to use it.  between sweepers, pulses and vindicates, plus the ability to recur them with naya charm or all sun's dawn, you don't need it.  

like i said, all you need is naya charm...3 dmg to any early creature, pulling something good out of the graveyard, or buying yourself an extra turn by creature death or swinging for the win by tapping their creatures



+1
Not to make it a MM discussion thread but this deck thrives on card draw and graveyard recur.  If you aren't running all 4 Allied Strategies, All Sun's Dawn and both Naya Charms, you're doing it wrong IMO



+1 again.
I play conflux over the 4th allied strategies.
Let's continue this train in the MM thread.....
I think the problem with this discussion is that people are evaluating the charms outside of the context of the deck in which they're located; Jund Charm and Bant Charm are great cards, but when you consider what MM is trying to do, they don't quite fit. Consistency is King, and Naya Charm is great in every matchup; the others are too situational to include, especially considering the pile of awesome cards you could be running instead.
I think the problem with this discussion is that people are evaluating the charms outside of the context of the deck in which they're located; Jund Charm and Bant Charm are great cards, but when you consider what MM is trying to do, they don't quite fit. Consistency is King, and Naya Charm is great in every matchup; the others are too situational to include, especially considering the pile of awesome cards you could be running instead.

You also need to consider the matchups. Jund charm really excels in MM worst matchups, like GG, PK, basicly any rush style deck. Also i've used its graveyard removal countless times against OD trying to Rise from the Grave something, another of MM bad matchups. Anytime I can include 2 of a card that helps me win my worst matchups more consistantly I run them. And lets face it, this deck stomps its better matchups so weakening it by 2 cards to help be more consistant against the harder matches is worth it IMO. You could make the same case for the bant I guess. SS built with all the regen in it can be really tough so putting creatures on the bottom of the library is big there, also the artifact hate can be real nice too. This deck tends to be so powerful that you could probably run no charms and have success but I think because its so strong I have the luxury of adding a few cards to add to my decks flexibility. I'm not gonna mention the nayas because they are just awesome!
When dj_btrue enters the forum exile all bad attitudes.