MDD maneuver competes with [W]

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Something which bothers me... MDD have to have results which compete with the damage dice rolled... how do you do that when/if the value of a damage die may vary greatly, like for a big weapon d12  and d4 for dagger. So the two handed weapon user is less likely to do a martial take down?

I know I am jumping the gun a little as we havent seen the exact implementation. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

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At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
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Weapon damage dice should be constrained to a narrower range. d6, d8 or d10 - anything that needs to be special beyond that should be handled with properties.
The conversation is easier if we use median values:
d4=2.5
d6=3.5
d8=4.5
d10=5.5
d12=6.5

Let's make "6" the target median.

The d12 weapon and d10 weapon are pretty close to the target.  Perhaps d12 weapons should be restricted to weapons you can use while mounted (like the lance) or weapons that require reach and gain a negative for attacking adjacent creatures (like a halberd).  d10 weapons may get properties like brutal (reroll natural 1's on damage) or keen (increased crit range) to give them a .5 boost.

If we assume that d4 and d6 weapons will be wielded in conjunction (short sword and dagger).  That's a median of 6 compared to the 5.5 of the d10 weapons.  In this case your "[w]" is the sum of the two individual weapon dice (i.e., your [w] = d6+d4).  If you weild two d4 weapons (like daggers) perhaps you get a +1 to your [w] value (i.e., your [w] = 2d4+1).  

The d8 weapon (like longsword) can get the same .5-valued properties as the d10 weapons like keen and brutal.  It also either allows you to weild a shield (whose benefits should equal a +1 to your [w] value) or gives you a +1 to your [w] when weilded with two hands (i.e. [w] = 1d8+1).  If shields gave you the chance to negate a melee attack against you as a reaction, that would be a scaling benefit possibly sufficient to make up for the loss in offense (possibly too potent depending on the mechanic used).

There are definite ways to keep the damage somewhat balanced on a strict numerical basis.
 
There are definite ways to keep the damage somewhat balanced on a strict numerical basis.


Maybe not as bad as I was thinking, but any variations once they become Nx[W] as part of MDD intensify it considerably.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

any variations once they become Nx[W] as part of MDD intensify it considerably.


As long as the benefits scale with level, it should be comparable.  

So on my hastily proposed solution we have:
[w] = 2d4+1 = 6
[w] = d6+d4 = 6
[w] = d8+1+.5 = 6
[w] = d10 + .5 = 6
[w] = d12 - .5 = 6

The trick then is just whether brutal and keen (and any other properties) are in fact worth .5 to the [w], and whether a shield is realy worth +1 to the [w].

Also, let's remember that  the 20th level fighter's MDD is only 6d6.  Assuming that scale is maintained, a 20th level fighter gets 6[w].  If the variation is only .5 per [w], then the difference you're looking at in 20th level is 3 or ½[w].  Given the damage levels being inflcited at 20th level, I think that variation is well within acceptable tolerances.  It's the difference between 36 damage and 33 damage.
Well let's compare the fighters shall we?

The greatweapon guy has no properties on his weapon. He is obviously going for damage and therefore the use of maneuvers harm his gimmick.

The polearm guy does slightly less damage but has Lunge for free and can use Lunge for 10 ft reach.

The dagger guy is obviously not going for damage and is probably using a throw or two. Using maneuver wouldn't hamper his tactic.

The one handler with a shield guy is in the middle for damage and maneuver use.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Perhaps it is fine for heavy weapons users to have access to less manouvers? Basically they trade off tactical versatity in favour of brute force. It make also sense that nimble weapons to have a wider array of uses. Just a thought.
Well let's compare the fighters shall we? The greatweapon guy has no properties on his weapon. He is obviously going for damage and therefore the use of maneuvers harm his gimmick. The polearm guy does slightly less damage but has Lunge for free and can use Lunge for 10 ft reach. The dagger guy is obviously not going for damage and is probably using a throw or two. Using maneuver wouldn't hamper his tactic. The one handler with a shield guy is in the middle for damage and maneuver use.



The Lunge feature has great potential but it competes a little with one of the benefits of long handled weapons.

I was thinking something like this.

Daggers are not intended to penetrate armor but exploit chinks in the armor, the contest is the attacker's dexterity versus the target's dexterity.
The dagger does 1d4 damage plus magic, plus the dexterity modifier, plus the level modifier/weapon proficiency.

If we say that the dagger does 2[w] at a higher level, what are we saying? The character already gets a bonus if he or she increases the dexterity ability at higher level, and increases level proficiency with the weapon.

We need to choose between an ability mod+level mod or compound 2[w], 3[w] damage. We already tried that with 4th edition and the math becomes a nightmare.

It is better to keep the math down by doing this. Each attack does 1[w] damage but characters get more attacks at higher levels.

I'm thinking 2 main attacks and 2 off-hand attacks per turn at the highest level.
The character can either split the attacks among targets or focus on 1 target.

I'm dumping the strength requirements because they were unpopular.

The off-hand weapon is 1 dice step lower than the main weapon.

fighting only classes up to two-handed weapons
rogue classes up to 1d10 weapons
fighting and casting classes up to 1d8 weapons
casting only classes up to 1d6 weapons

daggers 1d4
thrown weapons 1d6
small weapons 1d8
large weapons 1d10
two-handed weapons 3d6 main+off-hand action
long weapons 1d6 AC+2 reach 2 main+off-hand action
It is better to keep the math down by doing this. Each attack does 1[w] damage but characters get more attacks at higher levels.


I don't see them bringing back multi-attacks.  It's horribly swingy (no pun intended) and multiple rolls slows combat down.
The conversation is easier if we use median values:
Let's make "6" the target median.


If you're going to go through the trouble of trying to bring all weapons in line in such a way - would not keeping MD as d6s as they are now be an easier way? And that way Parry won't have to be adjusted either and all maneuvers "cost" the same amount in damage.
Weapons need to have a bonus balanced with the size difference.

Like...

2-handed: d10  *base damage
1-handed: -1 size
Finess: -1 size
Reach (Warding Polearm): -1 size  *with the current OA rules, reach needs something more.
Range: -1 size  *maybe
Martial: +1 size  *Simple weapons do not require proficiency.
Improvised: -1 size (will break on a 1 or 20).
Limited: +1 size *such as crossbows that take an action to load.
Damage type: +0  *no penalty or bonus for slashing over bludgeoning types.


then we get...
Great club: 1d10
Maul (martial): 1d12
Goodsword  : 1d10  
Greatsword (martial): 1d12
Longsword: (1 handed) 1d8
Bastardsword: (1 handed, martial) 1d10
Shortsword: (1 handed, finess) 1d6
Rapier: (1 handed, finess) 1d6
Spear (reach): 1d8
Gouge (reach, martial): 1d10
Spiked Chain (reach, finess, martial): 1d8
Whip: (1 handed, finess, reach) 1d4
Sling: (1 handed, ranged): 1d6
Shortbow: (ranged) 1d8
Longbow: (ranged, martial) 1d10
Dagger: (1 handed, finess, ranged): 1d4  *probably a bit weak, but d4 dagger is iconic.

Easy to expand/customize too...
Nuncucks: (finess, martial): 1d10
Gunblade: (ranged, martial): 1d10
Broom: (improvised): 1d8
Garden Hose (improvised, finess) 1d6

And of course, don't let people swap weapons too freely.  Like no hitting with a maul, then grabbing a polearm to poke the next charging orc.

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s to intentionally miss with
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Way's to fire around corners
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my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

It is better to keep the math down by doing this. Each attack does 1[w] damage but characters get more attacks at higher levels.


I don't see them bringing back multi-attacks.  It's horribly swingy (no pun intended) and multiple rolls slows combat down.

I would like to see multiple attacks return as a default progression.

They have, in fact, returned to the Fighter with Combet Surge (albeit only 1/day and starting at 11th level). 




Jan 14, 2013 -- 6:20AM, wrecan wrote:

 
There are definite ways to keep the damage somewhat balanced on a strict numerical basis.





Maybe not as bad as I was thinking, but any variations once they become Nx[W] as part of MDD intensify it considerably.


No, it doesn't. The difference is proportionally the same that it was. I liked the news. Now weapon choice can be important and balanced again. People always talk about the difference between 5d4 and 5d12. It is proportionally the same difference between d4 and d12. And properties are good.

Actually, if the weapon's damage die do not scale, it become useless. 
If you're going to go through the trouble of trying to bring all weapons in line in such a way - would not keeping MD as d6s as they are now be an easier way?


It's not so much trouble and because each weapon achieves that median in different ways it makes weapons feel different without unbalancing things.

And that way Parry won't have to be adjusted either and all maneuvers "cost" the same amount in damage.


If maneuvers cost [w], then they do cost the same and Parry won' t have to be adjusted.

Actually, looking at the MDD charts, the fighters gets 6d6 MDD at 20th level which is median MDD of 18.  That's only 3[w].

It seems to me that [w] will increase as follows:
1[w] Cleric 1-9, Wizard 1+
2[w] Cleric 10-17, Fighter/Monk/Rogue 1-3
3[w] Cleric 18+, Fighter/Monk/Rogue 4-6
4[w] Fighter/Monk/Rogue 7-9
5[w] Fighter/Monk/Rogue 10+
They have, in fact, returned to the Fighter with Combet Surge (albeit only 1/day and starting at 11th level). 


I didn't mean it wouldn't come back at all.  I meant it's not going to return as something you do every round.  Rollign twice once a day seems perfectly reasonable.
The conversation is easier if we use median values:
d4=2.5
d6=3.5
d8=4.5
d10=5.5
d12=6.5

Let's make "6" the target median.




Averages are fine for math parties, but at the table people don't remember them.    What we remember are all the times the 2h fighter killed the big guy in one strike.


What we remember are all the times the 2h fighter killed the big guy in one strike.


If the medians are balanced, the sword-n-dagger fighter can take the big guy down in one strike too.  But if your friends prefer the swingier weapons (d12-.5 over d4+d6), that's a legitimate preference.  The math, btw, is for design only.  It should be invisible at the table, making most typical weapon choices equally valid. 



Jan 14, 2013 -- 6:20AM, wrecan wrote:

 
There are definite ways to keep the damage somewhat balanced on a strict numerical basis.





Maybe not as bad as I was thinking, but any variations once they become Nx[W] as part of MDD intensify it considerably.


No, it doesn't. The difference is proportionally the same that it was. I liked the news. Now weapon choice can be important and balanced again. People always talk about the difference between 5d4 and 5d12. It is proportionally the same difference between d4 and d12. And properties are good.

Actually, if the weapon's damage die do not scale, it become useless. 




The difference is up to 40 points of damage.    In a game with BA that's unacceptable.   



Jan 14, 2013 -- 6:30AM, Garthanos wrote:

any variations once they become Nx[W] as part of MDD intensify it considerably.



As long as the benefits scale with level, it should be comparable.  

So on my hastily proposed solution we have:
[w] = 2d4+1 = 6
[w] = d6+d4 = 6
[w] = d8+1+.5 = 6
[w] = d10 + .5 = 6
[w] = d12 - .5 = 6

The trick then is just whether brutal and keen (and any other properties) are in fact worth .5 to the [w], and whether a shield is realy worth +1 to the [w].

Also, let's remember that  the 20th level fighter's MDD is only 6d6.  Assuming that scale is maintained, a 20th level fighter gets 6[w].  If the variation is only .5 per [w], then the difference you're looking at in 20th level is 3 or ½[w].  Given the damage levels being inflcited at 20th level, I think that variation is well within acceptable tolerances.  It's the difference between 36 damage and 33 damage.


I don't think we need that. Properties make up for damage.



Jan 14, 2013 -- 6:30AM, Garthanos wrote:

any variations once they become Nx[W] as part of MDD intensify it considerably.





As long as the benefits scale with level, it should be comparable.  

So on my hastily proposed solution we have:
[w] = 2d4+1 = 6
[w] = d6+d4 = 6
[w] = d8+1+.5 = 6
[w] = d10 + .5 = 6
[w] = d12 - .5 = 6

The trick then is just whether brutal and keen (and any other properties) are in fact worth .5 to the [w], and whether a shield is realy worth +1 to the [w].

Also, let's remember that  the 20th level fighter's MDD is only 6d6.  Assuming that scale is maintained, a 20th level fighter gets 6[w].  If the variation is only .5 per [w], then the difference you're looking at in 20th level is 3 or ½[w].  Given the damage levels being inflcited at 20th level, I think that variation is well within acceptable tolerances.  It's the difference between 36 damage and 33 damage.


I don't think we need that. Properties make up for damage.


Right.  Properties are how I intended to increase or reduce damage by .5 to even things out.  That's what I wrote.  (See the boldface I inserted.)

Jan 14, 2013 -- 7:23AM, cassi_brazuca wrote:

Jan 14, 2013 -- 6:30AM, Garthanos wrote:




Jan 14, 2013 -- 6:20AM, wrecan wrote:

 
There are definite ways to keep the damage somewhat balanced on a strict numerical basis.





Maybe not as bad as I was thinking, but any variations once they become Nx[W] as part of MDD intensify it considerably.


No, it doesn't. The difference is proportionally the same that it was. I liked the news. Now weapon choice can be important and balanced again. People always talk about the difference between 5d4 and 5d12. It is proportionally the same difference between d4 and d12. And properties are good.

Actually, if the weapon's damage die do not scale, it become useless. 





The difference is up to 40 points of damage.    In a game with BA that's unacceptable.   


It's completely acceptable. It's Bounded Accuracy, but damage scales.
Let's see the critical hits:
d4 = 4 damage
d12 = 12 damage
Proportion: 1:3
5d4 = 20 damage
5d12 = 60 damage
Proportion: 1:3
Its the same difference. Only scaled. Why it's fine weapons making triple damage at low level, but not at high level? Remember that monster's HP scale, so that 3 point difference needs to scale, or it becomes insignificant.



Jan 14, 2013 -- 7:37AM, cassi_brazuca wrote:



Jan 14, 2013 -- 6:33AM, wrecan wrote:







Jan 14, 2013 -- 6:30AM, Garthanos wrote:



any variations once they become Nx[W] as part of MDD intensify it considerably.







As long as the benefits scale with level, it should be comparable.  

So on my hastily proposed solution we have:
[w] = 2d4+1 = 6
[w] = d6+d4 = 6
[w] = d8+1+.5 = 6
[w] = d10 + .5 = 6
[w] = d12 - .5 = 6

The trick then is just whether brutal and keen (and any other properties) are in fact worth .5 to the [w], and whether a shield is realy worth +1 to the [w].

Also, let's remember that  the 20th level fighter's MDD is only 6d6.  Assuming that scale is maintained, a 20th level fighter gets 6[w].  If the variation is only .5 per [w], then the difference you're looking at in 20th level is 3 or ½[w].  Given the damage levels being inflcited at 20th level, I think that variation is well within acceptable tolerances.  It's the difference between 36 damage and 33 damage.





I don't think we need that. Properties make up for damage.





Right.  Properties are how I intended to increase or reduce damage by .5 to even things out.  That's what I wrote.  (See the boldface I inserted.)


I was talking about the 2d4+1 or d6+d4, for example. Remember that two-handed, light and finesse are properties and have a big impact. 



Jan 14, 2013 -- 7:23AM, cassi_brazuca wrote:



Jan 14, 2013 -- 6:30AM, Garthanos wrote:







Jan 14, 2013 -- 6:20AM, wrecan wrote:



 
There are definite ways to keep the damage somewhat balanced on a strict numerical basis.







Maybe not as bad as I was thinking, but any variations once they become Nx[W] as part of MDD intensify it considerably.





No, it doesn't. The difference is proportionally the same that it was. I liked the news. Now weapon choice can be important and balanced again. People always talk about the difference between 5d4 and 5d12. It is proportionally the same difference between d4 and d12. And properties are good.

Actually, if the weapon's damage die do not scale, it become useless. 







The difference is up to 40 points of damage.    In a game with BA that's unacceptable.   


It's completely acceptable. It's Bounded Accuracy, but damage scales. Let's see the critical hits: d4 = 4 damage d12 = 12 damage Proportion: 1:3 5d4 = 20 damage 5d12 = 60 damage Proportion: 1:3 Its the same difference. Only scaled. Why it's fine weapons making triple damage at low level, but not at high level? Remember that monster's HP scale, so that 3 point difference needs to scale, or it becomes insignificant.



monster hit points don't scale in a way that makes that extra damage acceptable.   


I really doubt we'll see more that 4W at level 10. I expect 4W at level 10 actually.

So the difference between dagger guy (4d4) and greatsword guy (4d12) is 16 because it is a 4 point damage drop per die from greatsword to dagger. But the dagger is finessable and throw able. It also is a simple weapon. The martial version of a knife should be 1d6 and thus only 3 damage per die. And who knows how TWF will work?

And look at a maneuver like Lunge. The greatweapon guy loses 6.5 average damage while the glaive guy keeps his die and only loses 1 damage per die. It'll take 7W before the greatweapon guy makes up for the reach the glaive guy has for free (7d10 vs 6d12).

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!


Jan 14, 2013 -- 7:44AM, cassi_brazuca wrote:

Jan 14, 2013 -- 7:37AM, dmgorgon wrote:




Jan 14, 2013 -- 7:23AM, cassi_brazuca wrote:



Jan 14, 2013 -- 6:30AM, Garthanos wrote:







Jan 14, 2013 -- 6:20AM, wrecan wrote:



 
There are definite ways to keep the damage somewhat balanced on a strict numerical basis.







Maybe not as bad as I was thinking, but any variations once they become Nx[W] as part of MDD intensify it considerably.





No, it doesn't. The difference is proportionally the same that it was. I liked the news. Now weapon choice can be important and balanced again. People always talk about the difference between 5d4 and 5d12. It is proportionally the same difference between d4 and d12. And properties are good.

Actually, if the weapon's damage die do not scale, it become useless. 







The difference is up to 40 points of damage.    In a game with BA that's unacceptable.   


It's completely acceptable. It's Bounded Accuracy, but damage scales. Let's see the critical hits: d4 = 4 damage d12 = 12 damage Proportion: 1:3 5d4 = 20 damage 5d12 = 60 damage Proportion: 1:3 Its the same difference. Only scaled. Why it's fine weapons making triple damage at low level, but not at high level? Remember that monster's HP scale, so that 3 point difference needs to scale, or it becomes insignificant.




monster hit points don't scale in a way that makes that extra damage acceptable.   


HP scales, so the difference between weapons needs to scale or it becomes insignificant. It's the same thing that happens at low levels.
I really doubt we'll see more that 4W at level 10. I expect 4W at level 10 actually. So the difference between dagger guy (4d4) and greatsword guy (4d12) is 16 because it is a 4 point damage drop per die from greatsword to dagger. But the dagger is finessable and throw able. It also is a simple weapon. The martial version of a knife should be 1d6 and thus only 3 damage per die. And who knows how TWF will work? And look at a maneuver like Lunge. The greatweapon guy loses 6.5 average damage while the glaive guy keeps his die and only loses 1 damage per die. It'll take 7W before the greatweapon guy makes up for the reach the glaive guy has for free (7d10 vs 6d12).




Well if the orge is viable at level 10 with 32 hit points is it  fair that the two handed weapon fighter @4d12 has a good chance to drop him in one shot, but the dagger fighter can't ever do it @4d4?

 


Remember that two-handed, light and finesse are properties and are good.


The two-handed property prevents you from using another weapon.
The light property allows you to use a second weapon.

Neither of these affect the math, except that it allow the second die.  There is nothing in the light property that adds +1 when weildign two daggers, though that's what I do propose here.

The finesse property just lets you use Dex instead of Strength, which doesn't affect the math either.  It's a benefit to character customization and is not worth anything with respect to median damage analysis.

Here's what I would do...
Primary: You can weild a secondary weapon or shield in your other hand.  (Most d6 weapons would get this property)
Secondary: This weapon has all the properties of a primary weapon and can also be weilded in your other hand as the second weapon.  (Most d4 weapons would get this property.)
Versatile: You can  weild a shield in your other hand. If you weild this weapon in two hands, the damage increases by +1.  (Most d8 or 2d4 weapons would get this property.)
Two-Handed: This weapon requires two hands to weild. (Most d10 weapons would get this property.)
Reach: This weapon requires two hands to weild. It increases your reach by five feet, but imposes dissadvantage against adjacent creatures. (Most d12 or 2d6 weapons would get this property.)

Additional properties to be given to d8 and d10 weapons.
Brutal: This weapon allows you to reroll natural 1's on damage.
Keen: This weapon scores a critical hit on a 19 or 20.

Well if the orge is viable at level 10 with 32 hit points is it  fair that the two handed weapon fighter @4d12 has a good chance to drop him in one shot, but the dagger fighter can't ever do it @4d4? 


The dagger-guy should be doing 8d4+8 (28 median, 40 max.) compared to the 4d12 (26 median, 48 max.) guy.  That should be just fine.  If the dagger guy chooses to weild a single dagger instead of two, he shouldn't be surprised that his 4d4 (10 median, 16 max.) doesn't stack up
I really doubt we'll see more that 4W at level 10. I expect 4W at level 10 actually. So the difference between dagger guy (4d4) and greatsword guy (4d12) is 16 because it is a 4 point damage drop per die from greatsword to dagger. But the dagger is finessable and throw able. It also is a simple weapon. The martial version of a knife should be 1d6 and thus only 3 damage per die. And who knows how TWF will work? And look at a maneuver like Lunge. The greatweapon guy loses 6.5 average damage while the glaive guy keeps his die and only loses 1 damage per die. It'll take 7W before the greatweapon guy makes up for the reach the glaive guy has for free (7d10 vs 6d12).




Well if the orge is viable at level 10 with 32 hit points is it  fair that the two handed weapon fighter @4d12 has a good chance to drop him in one shot, but the dagger fighter can't ever do it @4d4?

 




If we have an level 1 monster with 10 hit points, a d12 greatsword can one-shot him, but a d4 dagger cannot. It's the same thing that happens at low levels
Remember that two-handed, light and finesse are properties and are good.


The two-handed property prevents you from using another weapon.
The light property allows you to use a second weapon.

Neither of these affect the math, except that it allow the second die.  There is nothing in the light property that adds +1 when weildign two daggers, though that's what I do propose here.

The finesse property just lets you use Dex instead of Strength, which doesn't affect the math either.  It's a benefit to character customization and is not worth anything with respect to median damage analysis.





Light and Two-handed will affect the math with the damage die important now, and with Two-Weapo Fighthing. And finesse let you choose Dex as primary stat. 
The difference is up to 40 points of damage.    In a game with BA that's unacceptable.

It's completely acceptable. It's Bounded Accuracy, but damage scales. Let's see the critical hits: d4 = 4 damage d12 = 12 damage Proportion: 1:3 5d4 = 20 damage 5d12 = 60 damage Proportion: 1:3 Its the same difference. Only scaled. Why it's fine weapons making triple damage at low level, but not at high level? Remember that monster's HP scale, so that 3 point difference needs to scale, or it becomes insignificant.

I'm with you on this one.  Bounded Accuracy seems to get used as an example for why things don't work even when it doesn't apply.

Wrecan, your idea is a good way to maintain balance between weapons, but I think it makes the final version too complicated, especially for those who would roll 2d4+1 or 1d6+1d4 for each "MDD".  Keeping track of 6d6 is one thing, keeping track of a number of d6s and d4s is another.
But I think the bigger issue is that if we are going to go to such lengths to make the weapons perfectly balanced, why not just reevaluate the way weapons are designed in the first place?  If the goal is to make weapons balanced, we don't really need a huge weapon chart.  Something small and simple like the one used in Gamma World would be fine.  Players pick the type of weapon (like heavy two-handed) and then assign a damage type. 

In the end, I don't think it is a big problem to use damage die instead of a flat d6 for the extra damage.  As cassi said, the damage scales proportionally.  If we assume that weapons are balanced at level 1 (so a two-handed weapon at 1d12 is equivalent to a shield and one-handed weapon at 1d8), then scaling up to when you are dealing 4[W] or whatever should still be equivalent.  The reason is that the +1 AC is just as valuable at level 20 as it was at level 1.  It is still increasing your AC by 1 point, resulting in monsters missing you on 1 roll out of 20.

So that brings us to the issue of a fighter who wants to use a weaker weapon.  The big question is: should weapon choice matter?  Personally, I think this should be left to each group.  There are some people who think weapon choice should make a difference, and for these people it is a good thing that a fighter with a dagger would be a lot less effective than one with a greatsword.  For people who think weapon choice should simply be aethetic, there is a simple solution: simply increase the damage for weapons.  So that fighter with the dagger?  Let him do 1d8 damage (because he has a hand free).

Light and Two-handed will affect the math with the damage die important now


Right, it affects the math in precisely the way I outlined and which you were taking issue with.

And finesse let you choose Dex as primary stat. 


Which has no affect on the weapon math.  It's a benefit to character choice because it helps avoid multipl-attribute dependency

Jan 14, 2013 -- 8:11AM, cassi_brazuca wrote:

Light and Two-handed will affect the math with the damage die important now



Right, it affects the math in precisely the way I outlined and which you were taking issue with.

And finesse let you choose Dex as primary stat. 



Which has no affect on the weapon math.  It's a benefit to character choice because it helps avoid multipl-attribute dependency


In your system? I can't find the part when you talk about two-weapon fighting in your rules. But in a balanced Two-Weapon Fighting, it matters. And we don't know about the Two-Weapon Fighting now, because thigs will chance.
And many people are saying that Dex fighters are already better than Strength fighters. With Dex in initiative and AC, I think that finesse counts a lot.
Wrecan, your idea is a good way to maintain balance between weapons, but I think it makes the final version too complicated, especially for those who would roll 2d4+1 or 1d6+1d4 for each "MDD".  Keeping track of 6d6 is one thing, keeping track of a number of d6s and d4s is another.


I agree. One way to avoid that is to key two-weapon fighting to the smaller weapon and give a +1 to damage.  So two daggers is 2d4+1.  Two shortswords is 2d6.  (I don't think "2d4+1" as [w] is too complicated.)

Of course, right now we do have two different dice as weapons in the form of double weapons. The urgosh does 1d10+1d4 (median 8). The quarterstaff does d8+d6 (median 8).

If the goal is to make weapons balanced, we don't really need a huge weapon chart.  Something small and simple like the one used in Gamma World would be fine.  Players pick the type of weapon (like heavy two-handed) and then assign a damage type.


Oh, the basic module could simply have the following chart:



















































SizeDamageBludgeoningPiercingSlashingProperties
Lightd4SapDirkDaggerSecondary
Shortd6ClubShort SpearShort swordPrimary
Longd8MaceRapierLongswordVersatile
Greatd10GreatclubLongspearGreatswordKeen
Reachd12MaulPikeGlaiveReach

And add a few ranged weapons. The only reason the table is as long as it is is due to the three types of damage. And the advanced version of the game can add all sorts of other weapons.

If we assume that d4 and d6 weapons will be wielded in conjunction (short sword and dagger).  That's a median of 6 compared to the 5.5 of the d10 weapons.  In this case your "[w]" is the sum of the two individual weapon dice (i.e., your [w] = d6+d4).  If you weild two d4 weapons (like daggers) perhaps you get a +1 to your [w] value (i.e., your [w] = 2d4+1).

There probably is a way to setup things so it remains balanced, but remember it has to be dead simple also. No [W] = 1d6+1d4 or [W] = 2d4+1, that would create all sorts of complexity trying to explain the rules. I don't want to be trying to explain to a new player that his base damage is 2d4+4 but when he does 2 weapon damage it is 4d4+5, because it is 2d4+1 from weapon and +3 from str.


I can't find the part when you talk about two-weapon fighting in your rules.


Look again. It's shortsword and dagger (d6+d4) or two daggers (2d4+1)
many people are saying that Dex fighters are already better than Strength fighters. With Dex in initiative and AC, I think that finesse counts a lot.


Not to weapon damage analysis.  That's an imbalance in the way the classes are designed because Dexterity is simply too useful an Ability right now compared to Strength as it is used for Initiative, most skills and plenty of saves.  That issue can't be fixed with weapon damage. 
Actually I like the math to be hidden in the system and the core to be simple

Martial
Two handed heavy- 1d12
Two handed heavy reach- 1d10
Two handed finesse- 1d10
Two handed finesse reach- 1d8
One handed-1d10
One handed thrown- 1d6
One handed finesse-1d8
One handed light finesse- 1d6
One handed light thrown- 1d4

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

No [W] = 1d6+1d4 or [W] = 2d4+1


Fine.  For all two-weapon fighting [w] = 2d4, regardless of the weapons being used.  Give these weapons some decent properties and we're all set.


So for those keeping track, here's my current proposal:





















































SizeDamageBludgeoningPiercingSlashingProperties
Lightd4SapDirkDaggerLight
Shortd6ClubShort SpearShort swordKeen, Light
Longd8MaceRapierLongswordKeen, Versatile
Greatd10GreatclubLongspearGreatswordBrutal, Two-Handed
Reachd12MaulPikeGlaiveReach, Two-Handed

And add a few ranged weapons.

Brutal: When weilding this weapon, you reroll any natural "1" on your damage roll.
Keen: When weilding this weapon, you score a critical hit on a 19 or 20
Light: You can weild a light weapon in your other hand.  When you do so, your weapon damage is 2d4.  You can also weild a shield in your other hand instead.
Versatile: You can weild this weapon two-handed. Doing so increases the weapon die to d10. You can also weild a shield in your other hand instead.
Reach: You can attack targets five feet from you.  Attacking adjacent targets incurs disadvantage.
Two-Handed: This weapon requires two hands to weild.

Done.
I like the simplicity with a dash of interesting elements of the latest idea... i... what are you thinking for shield use... it could be treated as an off hand weapon actually.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
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Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
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At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
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I like the simplicity with a dash of interesting elements of the latest idea... i... what are you thinking for shield use... it could be treated as an off hand weapon actually.


It depends on the armor system.  I figure a shield grants you cover (how much depends on the size of the shield) against one attack as a reaction or cover against all attacks until your next begins as an action.
Actually I like the math to be hidden in the system and the core to be simple Martial Two handed heavy- 1d12 Two handed heavy reach- 1d10 Two handed finesse- 1d10 Two handed finesse reach- 1d8 One handed-1d10 One handed thrown- 1d6 One handed finesse-1d8 One handed light finesse- 1d6 One handed light thrown- 1d4

This.

Brutal: When weilding this weapon, you reroll any natural "1" on your damage roll.
Keen: When weilding this weapon, you score a critical hit on a 19 or 20
Light: You can weild a light weapon in your other hand.  When you do so, your weapon damage is 2d4.  You can also weild a shield in your other hand instead.
Versatile: You can weild this weapon two-handed. Doing so increases the weapon die to d10. You can also weild a shield in your other hand instead.
Reach: You can attack targets five feet from you.  Attacking adjacent targets incurs disadvantage.
Two-Handed: This weapon requires two hands to weild.

Brutal slows the game down for minimal gain (especailly on d10 weapons).
Keen is not balanced.  It could be, but it would be difficult.
Light sounds too complicated.  It should just add 1d4 to your main-hand attack.
Versatile is ok.  But i'm not sure it really helps anything.
Reach is too complicated, not to mention basicly a straight negitive with the current OA rules.
Two-handed is fine.

 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.