Mercenary theme - Takedown strike

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Hi,
Hoping someone can help clarify the following:  Can you use takedown strike in combination with an attack that that a push?  Specifically with the earth domain spell 'Burden of Earth', which does a push 1 on a hit (it is defined as part of the attack, and not an effect).

Thanks for any help,
Neil 
Yes.  Takedown Strike essentially adds 'and you do some extra damage and knock the target prone' to the hit line.  You can add it to any qualifying attack.  Since it has to interrupt in order to function, it interrupts, and works fine.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
It's not an interrupt, it's a triggered power that triggers when you hit an enemy adjacent to you with an attack.
It's not an interrupt, it's a triggered power that triggers when you hit an enemy adjacent to you with an attack.



Yes, but free actions function as reactions unless they have to function as an interrupt in order to function.
It's a no action, just btw.

It HAS to have interrupt timing (note, not the Immediate Interrupt action type, but interrupt timing) in order to do anything at all, so it works fine.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Takedown Strike doesn't have to interrupt to function AFAIK.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Yes it does, Plague.  Anything that applies extra damage has to be part of the resolution of the base damage, so you can't wait for the base damage to be resolved before you apply the extra damage.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Yes it does, Plague.  Anything that applies extra damage has to be part of the resolution of the base damage, so you can't wait for the base damage to be resolved before you apply the extra damage.


With the exception of Hunter's Quarry of course.  There's always one.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
I said the general rule because that's what's actually relevant, and Hunter's Quarry states exactly how it's an exception.  It's not necessary to say that other individual powers might have exceptions.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Takedown Strike requires you to hit an enemy adjacent to you with an attack--any attack (ranged, close, area, or melee).

Burden of Earth's range is melee weapon.  Unless you are using a reach weapon, the enemy will be adjacent to you when you attack with Burden of Earth.

So you have met Takedown Strike's requirements and thus it triggers and basically changes the Burden of Earth's hit line to read: 1[W] + Wisdom modifier + Wisdom modifier damage, push the target 1 square and knock the target prone.

I hope that explanation helps.
Yes it does, Plague.  Anything that applies extra damage has to be part of the resolution of the base damage, so you can't wait for the base damage to be resolved before you apply the extra damage.

No it doesn't, since extra damage is in addition to the attack's damage anyway. Best exemple is Hunter's Quarry.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

You're telling me the best example is the one where it explicitly calls out an exception?

Really?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
For exemple of extra damage applied as a Reaction, look at Wrathful Mastery, Alter Fate and True Alter Fate. 

The extra damage doesn't have to interrupt since its in addition to the attack's damage anyway. Nor is the prone effect.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

The extra damage doesn't have to interrupt since its in addition to the attack's damage anyway

This is exactly why it must be an interrupt.

To illustrate, I ask you this:

I use Melee Basic Attack.
I hit.
I roll MBA's damage:  10.
I use Takedown Strike, which for me is 5 extra damage.

The target has Resist 5 All.

How many hitpoints does the target lose?

If you say 10, then Takedown Strike must be an interrupt.  If you say Takedown Strike is a reaction, then you must say 5.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

Actually, I think Plague does have a point and Takedown Strike can work as a reaction vs. an interrupt.  However, the three powers he mentioned (Wrathful Mastery, and the Alter Fates) above are bad examples. They're all reactions instead of no action (takedown).


The key is in trigger timings.  Takedown and the Alter Fates trigger's are 'hit' by an attack.  Thus, the reaction would take place after the hit and before damage was applied.  The extra damage can be included with damage resolution and resistances applied only once.


Wrathful Mastery's trigger is 'hit and damaged', thus damage resolution already happened.  Any resistances would affect both the original damage and the extra damage.


Also, better examples to use may have been Power Strike, Assassin's Strike, Lesser Dimensional Step, or other such powers with a no action 'extra damage' component.

The key is in trigger timings.  Takedown and the Alter Fates trigger's are 'hit' by an attack.  Thus, the reaction would take place after the hit and before damage was applied. 

This is not how reactions work, though me saying so will start another argument.  Please leave it alone, and just refrain from using this argument, for or against.

D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

I will not leave it alone.  I ask for you to break an example down for us step-by-step.  Give us your version.


We know things work like a reaction before acting like an interrupt (i.e. no actions, free actions, etc).


We also know that a reaction's trigger resloves before the reaction takes place.


Takedown Strike is no action, and Alter Fate is an immediate reaction.  Both apply thier extra damage to the attack.


My argument is that since they both modify the Hit line of an attack, they both work fine as a reaction.


For example:
During the Attack line of a power, my reaction's trigger is met.  The Attack line continues to process until complete.


Once the Attack line is completed, my reaction processes modifying the Hit line to add extra damage.


Once the reaction is completed, the Hit line processes dealing extra damage.


Any resistances are now applied.


That is how reactions work.  If you don't think so, break it down 'barney style' for me.  Because I find it hard to think that resistance would be applied twice to Alter Fate and not Takedown Strike (based on your MBA example above).

I will not leave it alone.  I ask for you to break an example down for us step-by-step.  Give us your version.



You really, really don't want me to do that.  Really.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

As usual, your holier than thou, ambiguous, I’m better than you answer.  Sometimes I wonder what world you live in.


You really, really don't want me to do that.  Really.



Yes, I do. 
If you're starting off with insulting me, I don't see why I should oblige you.

Search for it yourself, the arguments have been made before, the usual participants are just going to come here and argue without resolving anything, it's not actually relevant to the question at hand (which is whether or not extra damage resolves when the damage resolves, which it does, because of the "extra damage is always in addition to other damage" rule).
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
The extra damage doesn't have to interrupt since its in addition to the attack's damage anyway

This is exactly why it must be an interrupt.

To illustrate, I ask you this:

I use Melee Basic Attack.
I hit.
I roll MBA's damage:  10.
I use Takedown Strike, which for me is 5 extra damage.

The target has Resist 5 All.

How many hitpoints does the target lose?

If you say 10, then Takedown Strike must be an interrupt.  If you say Takedown Strike is a reaction, then you must say 5.



The target takes 10 damage because it takes 15 damage and has Resist 5 All. Wether its a Reaction doesn't change anything since extra damage is in addition to an attack's damage, which can only be resisted once. Wether the instance of extra damage is applied immediatly after or later on your turn as demonstrated with Hunter's Quarry or Chain of Levistus, what matters is that extra damage is in addition to the damage roll, always. That's why extra damage never get damage bonuses added to them.

I even showed you multiple exemples of extra damage applied as an Immediate Reaction, what more do you need ?

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Examples of exceptions do not change the rule.  And the general rule is that extra damage must be included in the resolution of the base damage, which means the resolution of the effect that adds the extra damage must be resolved before the base damage, which means interrupt.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Not it doesn't mean that. Its in addition to them so it will add anyway. Wether its immedietly or moment later doesn't matter, extra damage is always in addition to other damage, this regardless of timing.

Since no general rule say extra damage must be resolved before the base damage, it means extra damage power don't need to interrupt in order to function and thus work as reaction unless noted otherwise. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Am I the only one surprised that this is a game element that could even come into question, all things considered ?  I mean...  This is CharOP, shouldn't we know the answer to this without a single doubt ?

"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

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