Isn't Sleight of Hand a magical ability ?

If by Magician you mean Stage Magician? Then yes.
My two copper.
If by Magician you mean Stage Magician? Then yes.


+1 and a 

Just go to youtube and search for "sleight of hand" and keep in mind: NOT MAGIC.
Nothing up my sleeve and... Tada!... Is your heart, sir? ....Sir?

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I can't tell if everyone's being sarcastic, or if everyone missed uglyvan's point.

I agree though, martial characters should definitely be able to cool things to affect other characters like 'magic' characters can.
I can't tell if everyone's being sarcastic, or if everyone missed uglyvan's point.

I agree though, martial characters should definitely be able to cool things to affect other characters like 'magic' characters can.




care to enlighten us?
I can't tell if everyone's being sarcastic, or if everyone missed uglyvan's point.



Magic doesn't exist in the real world.  People in the real world are capable of performing sleight of hand.  Therefore sleight of hand isn't a magical ability.  QED?
I believe uglyvan is comparing Sleight of Hand to the martial abilities everyone is complaining about, like the Rogue's Taunt. If Taunt can only be performed with magic, then Sleight of Hand should only be performed with magic. That's ridiculous because both of these things can be done in real life. The ability might not be working perfectly but the point is that it can be done in real life.
I believe uglyvan is comparing Sleight of Hand to the martial abilities everyone is complaining about, like the Rogue's Taunt. If Taunt can only be performed with magic, then Sleight of Hand should only be performed with magic. That's ridiculous because both of these things can be done in real life. The ability might not be working perfectly but the point is that it can be done in real life.




i didn't really get that at all from the OP's first post (calling it a 'post' at all is a little generous in my opinion).

 
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Ah. Indeed. 

the old "you can't do a cool thing without magic!"  argument.
 
Ah. Indeed. 

the old "you can't do a cool thing without magic!"  argument.
 



I think the argument actually generally goes "you can't do an unbelievable thing without magic".  Of course, "believable" isn't an objective term.
Ah. Indeed. 

the old "you can't do a cool thing without magic!"  argument.
 

Seems to me to be much more likely to be "thing magicians do = magic!" argument.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Seems to me there's no way to know what uglyvan meant unless he were to come back and tell us what he meant (and even then...)
I'm playing a fate system with no magic, but my character can do stage magic. It's one of the reasons that I like fate out of combat - I can do that, my friend is a wizard with electronics, and another friend can befriend anyone. That allows for a lot of "leverage" type heists - which is something I don't see with the current d&d. (Seems a little too "wait for the wizard" for me, but we'll see).
Ah. Indeed. 

the old "you can't do a cool thing without magic!"  argument.
 



I think the argument actually generally goes "you can't do an unbelievable thing without magic".  Of course, "believable" isn't an objective term.



As I understand the argument, it's not about restricting cool or unbelievable things to magic alone.   Obviously, things that are cool or unbelievable do happen in real life.     It's about restricting anything that goes against the laws of physics to magic.   


Seems to me there's no way to know what uglyvan meant unless he were to come back and tell us what he meant (and even then...)

Yeah, I was just posting what I thought he meant. That whole "only magic gets cool things" argument was on my mind at the time, so I assumed he was talking about. If that's not what uglyvan meant, sorry. If it is what uglyvan meant, I wish that he had included more context.

In either case, I think that abilities like Taunt should be in the game. Though I'm more than willing to compromise to a more vague ability effect.
As I understand the argument, it's not about restricting cool or unbelievable things to magic alone.   Obviously, things that are cool or unbelievable do happen in real life.     It's about restricting anything that goes against the laws of physics to magic.   



I mean unbelievable in the literal sense, not in the sense of "amazing".
All I got from this thread is that Orzel's the type of thief who wants to steal your heart.
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning." -Mike Mearls
How romantic! :P
well, illusionists in the real world do perform tricks like teleportation of little birds or the like; then of course they say there's a "stunt" (translation of french terme "truc" )... but you can't seriously affirm that Magic doesn't exist, even when science tends to negate this possibility; 
I always envisioned sleight of hand as someone simply stealing something so stealthily that you don't know they did it. It happens all the time in real life to be honest. There is nothing magical about it. I was always told that when you go to the big city you keep watch of your purse otherwise it could be stolen without you even knowing until its too late. 
IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/RockNrollBabe20/Charmed-supernatural-and-charmed_zps8bd4125f.jpg)
well, illusionists in the real world do perform tricks like teleportation of little birds or the like; then of course they say there's a "stunt" (translation of french terme "truc" )... but you can't seriously affirm that Magic doesn't exist, even when science tends to negate this possibility; 

Science has just proved that people pretending to practice supernatural feats were cheating everytime it was possible to investigate.
Science never affirm.
Scientific thinking even tells us that true supernatural manifestations could be beyond beeing apprehended trough science in its current state, as our instruments and references are strictly based on nature. Something supernatural could "exist" outside any natural laws by definition.

And magic is also called occult science. Who can affirm that occult science will never be a branch of Science ?
Science can not affirm without stopping being science.

Sleight of hand is like any supernatural things science has been able to investigate until now : cheating. 

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

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