The Biggest change that DND next needs to make!

I have no idea if this issue has been addressed. I also do not have time to read through every thread.

I have been gaming since 1983. This being said, one of the most magical things about the game has been rolling the statistics. You know Strength through Charisma. Being a Dungeon Master for the vast majority of this time I have and will continue to refuse to purchase any books involved with any game where the limits for character statistics are so stringent as per the last two dungeons and dragons versions. Through multiple campaigns there is always a player that tries to take advantage of the system and come to the table with six scores all above natural 16's. In this situation I understand a games need for game balancing. My choice was always to make the player reroll in front of everyone. I believe the rules for DnD Next should take into consideration the magic and fun involved in rolling those six statistics while keeping game balance. This means removing the WOTC rule involving this area of character creation.

Best,
Nikita
That would involve dismantling the Unified Ability Modifier, and re-instituting the concept that a 10 or 12 in your prime stat is perfectly playable.  I'm all for it.

The metagame is not the game.

Rolling stats is something I have no desire to ever see again, and it being presented as the default method for generating stats or even the first in a list of options lessens the appeal of 5E to me.
...whatever
That would involve dismantling the Unified Ability Modifier, and re-instituting the concept that a 10 or 12 in your prime stat is perfectly playable.  I'm all for it.


I completely agree!
My two copper.
This means removing the WOTC rule involving this area of character creation.

Best,
Nikita


What specific rule are you talking about removing?  The "WOTC rule" isn't terribly specific.  Are you talking about removing the variant methods of point buy and the array?

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Rolling stats is something I have no desire to ever see again, and it being presented as the default method for generating stats or even the first in a list of options lessens the appeal of 5E to me.

Then go play wow because that mentality is what ruined the game that started it all. I don't expect anyone that started gaming in the last ten years to agree with my view on this subject. There are just certain magical parts to gaming that are gone and if they do not return then DnD next will fall short just as the last version did. I'm not alone. I have yet to speak with anyone in florida throughout the many conversations I've had with avid gamers over this last year.  DnD was not supposed to be Magic the gathering, Wow, Warhammer it is supposed to be DnD which means random with flexible ruling that are more guidlines than rules.
Rolling stats is something I have no desire to ever see again, and it being presented as the default method for generating stats or even the first in a list of options lessens the appeal of 5E to me.

Then go play wow because that mentality is what ruined the game that started it all. I don't expect anyone that started gaming in the last ten years to agree with my view on this subject. There are just certain magical parts to gaming that are gone and if they do not return then DnD next will fall short just as the last version did. I'm not alone. I have yet to speak with anyone in florida throughout the many conversations I've had with avid gamers over this last year.  DnD was not supposed to be Magic the gathering, Wow, Warhammer it is supposed to be DnD which means random with flexible ruling that are more guidlines than rules.

Yes the point buy system is a far cry from capturing one of the founding structures in creating a character in the original and advanced game system...
This means removing the WOTC rule involving this area of character creation.

Best,
Nikita


What specific rule are you talking about removing?  The "WOTC rule" isn't terribly specific.  Are you talking about removing the variant methods of point buy and the array?

Yes the point buy system is a far cry from capturing one of the founding structures in creating a character in the original and advanced game system...
We used point buy for a while but have since been moving back towards rolling your stats.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Sorry, if I'm going to build a character, I'm going to build the character I have in mind, not be subject to the random whims of the dice.  Dice rolling is nothing more than an exercise in frustration and a way to create an imbalanced game and a pointless restriction on possible character concepts.

Sayeth a 41 year old who's been playing since the original Red Box and has never played World of Warcraft, so don't pull that 'younger generation WoW' crap.
There are people who like to roll stats.  There are people who hate to roll stats.  I like the more "organic" look of rolled stats, and it's always nice to have a chance for a high secondary or tertiary stat (one of my favorite 2e characters was a Fighter with the Gladiator kit who had 16 Charisma.  Everyone always double taked when they saw that, saying things like "Fighters don't need Charisma!".  Until I hit 9th level, at least...).

I'm fine either way, usually I stress point buy because, while rolling is fun, you can end up with some serious disparity between characters.  Like a game where one melee character has a 16 Str and the other has a 13.  Even if you're playing 1/2e and the difference is +1 damage, if both characters are Fighters, one is still earning +10% XP and that can become an issue later on down the road.

I recently started playing in a Pathfinder game where the DM insisted on rolling for stats.  So, in front of everyone, I picked up my d6's and rolled 18, 17, 16, 16, 13, 12.  The group's Barbarian who has a perfectly respectable 16 Str and Con, immediately commented about how his character was "weak" compared to mine.

And then he hit the roof when I used my array to make a Sorcerer.  Heh.

Long tangent aside, the fact of the matter is that rolling for stats isn't balanced, and the zillion house rules groups come up with when rolling dice (4d6 drop low, reroll 1's sound familiar to anyone here?) doesn't help.  Way I see it, if you want a high powered game, give everyone all 18's.  If you want gritty and low powered, give 'em all 12's.

It's way easier on you in the long run, when you have a Fighter who hits a monster's AC on a 10 and a Rogue who hits the same AC on a 15 in the same party.           
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies." -The Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks
We used point buy for a while but have since been moving back towards rolling your stats.

That sounds awesome... Once again there is no system that can deal with min maxers... there should be some form of guidelines with some suggestions for the GM's on how to handle people who wish to manipulate the system.
Rolling has never not existed as an option.
This means removing the WOTC rule involving this area of character creation.

Best,
Nikita


What specific rule are you talking about removing?  The "WOTC rule" isn't terribly specific.  Are you talking about removing the variant methods of point buy and the array?

Yes the point buy system is a far cry from capturing one of the founding structures in creating a character in the original and advanced game system...



There's two kinds of D&D players (And groups)

"I want to Roll" - Traditinal D&D.
"I want to play this character" - Point buy

Both of these systems can coexist,  and IMO should coexist in order to build the market.  I personally prefer Roll and IMO Point-buy just leads to everyone playing the same character,  but there's really nothing wrong with it.  It's really just a group-decision.    
There are people who like to roll stats.  There are people who hate to roll stats.  I like the more "organic" look of rolled stats, and it's always nice to have a chance for a high secondary or tertiary stat (one of my favorite 2e characters was a Fighter with the Gladiator kit who had 16 Charisma.  Everyone always double taked when they saw that, saying things like "Fighters don't need Charisma!".  Until I hit 9th level, at least...).

I'm fine either way, usually I stress point buy because, while rolling is fun, you can end up with some serious disparity between characters.  Like a game where one melee character has a 16 Str and the other has a 13.  Even if you're playing 1/2e and the difference is +1 damage, if both characters are Fighters, one is still earning +10% XP and that can become an issue later on down the road.

I recently started playing in a Pathfinder game where the DM insisted on rolling for stats.  So, in front of everyone, I picked up my d6's and rolled 18, 17, 16, 16, 13, 12.  The group's Barbarian who has a perfectly respectable 16 Str and Con, immediately commented about how his character was "weak" compared to mine.

And then he hit the roof when I used my array to make a Sorcerer.  Heh.

Long tangent aside, the fact of the matter is that rolling for stats isn't balanced, and the zillion house rules groups come up with when rolling dice (4d6 drop low, reroll 1's sound familiar to anyone here?) doesn't help.  Way I see it, if you want a high powered game, give everyone all 18's.  If you want gritty and low powered, give 'em all 12's.

It's way easier on you in the long run, when you have a Fighter who hits a monster's AC on a 10 and a Rogue who hits the same AC on a 15 in the same party.           

All of your points are excellent.

Here is the only thing I do not agree on.

Like a game where one melee character has a 16 Str and the other has a 13.  Even if you're playing 1/2e and the difference is +1 damage, if both characters are Fighters, one is still earning +10% XP

Experience should never be allotted or given based on someones statistics. Instead Threre is a matter of what the group accomplished as well as the individual contributions in the way of enginuity and creativeness. Also it is the Gm's responsibility to make sure that the characters all have soem Heroic characteristic from which they can draw from to add technical contributions. If things are balanced there should not be a need to award experience based on someones ability scores.
Rolling has never not existed as an option.

The last edition of Dnd specifically states that characters cannot play in any WOTC tournament events if they do not use the point buy system they created...
This means removing the WOTC rule involving this area of character creation.

Best,
Nikita


What specific rule are you talking about removing?  The "WOTC rule" isn't terribly specific.  Are you talking about removing the variant methods of point buy and the array?

Yes the point buy system is a far cry from capturing one of the founding structures in creating a character in the original and advanced game system...


Sorry if I fail to understand this properly.  DDN is supposed to be about modularity, about uniting fans of all editions, and about being able to play the kind of D&D that you want to play.  How does removing an optional rule that some people prefer to use facilitate those goals?

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Bonus xp for having a 16 in a prime requisite wasn't my idea, that's how things worked in the Second Edition game.
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies." -The Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks
Rolling has never not existed as an option.

The last edition of Dnd specifically states that characters cannot play in any WOTC tournament events if they do not use the point buy system they created...


That's not about the edition.  That's about preventing people from showing up with all 18s and saying "I'm just lucky as hell."

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Biggest question is (and this is something that comes up in these foruns more often than it should): if they have the option of allowing both possibilities and appeal to a larger percentage of the fanbase (and they do), then why the hell would they choose not to do that, allow only one method of generating stats, and alienate half of the fanbase?

I mean, you like to roll stats. Cool. Me and my players (each one with 8+ years of D&D and not a single WoW character between all of us, I might add) will ALWAYS choose point-buy. WotC can make both you and me enjoy the game by providing both options of stat generation. I have no quarrel with how your group plays; why, then, are you trying to cut my favorite method out of the game?
Sorry, if I'm going to build a character, I'm going to build the character I have in mind, not be subject to the random whims of the dice.  Dice rolling is nothing more than an exercise in frustration and a way to create an imbalanced game and a pointless restriction on possible character concepts.

Sayeth a 41 year old who's been playing since the original Red Box and has never played World of Warcraft, so don't pull that 'younger generation WoW' crap.

The point buy system is far more restrictive. I might and I mean might give it more respect if it was less stringent but as it was in the last version of DnD I'd take the original rolling system over it any day.

Also don't try and nerd out I have the first print of the original 1974 game if we're trying to who's cooler than who over this...
'I can put my stats how I like them' over 'I'm stuck with what random fate gives me' is more restrictive?  Really?

You keep using that word.  I don't think it means what you think it means.

And I was merely expressing offense at your ludicrous 'only newbies and WoW players like point buy' bullcrap.  Though given the rest of the nonsense you've posted ...

At any rate, you roll them if you want to, I'll point buy if I want to, and we'll both be happy.
The point buy system is far more restrictive. I might and I mean might give it more respect if it was less stringent but as it was in the last version of DnD I'd take the original rolling system over it any day.


Have you ever considered a hybrid system?  For example: a point buy system where you roll to determine the number of points you get to spend?

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I guess it really comes down to what you really want or need.  Most characters should be playable with nothing higher than a 15.  If your whole group has the same numbers, then you, as a DM, can modify the game based on their power level. 

But if one guy is rocking an 18 in a critical stat and everyone else is 15 or less, the curve is broken, and you can't easily adjust.  Mr. 18 is a superstar, and that's that.

Now, people will argue that it's like that in real life, but in a game, I think it's reasonable for a player to expect to have an area where they shine, even if it's not the same area as another character.  Maybe you have more to hit and damage, but I have more AC.  Or more hit points.  Something.

So there's really no reason to say "Joe got lucky and has two 18's, you can't roll higher than a 14, so you're just worse than he is.  That's the game, deal." 

What I would suggest, actually, is that if your group likes to roll dice, have everyone roll.  Figure out who has the best array.  Everyone uses that array to assign their ability scores.       
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies." -The Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks
Have you ever considered a hybrid system?  For example: a point buy system where you roll to determine the number of points you get to spend?

All that does is make the inequity of luck more obvious.

Have you ever considered a hybrid system?  For example: a point buy system where you roll to determine the number of points you get to spend?

All that does is make the inequity of luck more obvious.


Not really.  It also creates a minimum level of competency across the full range of attributes.  Besides, for people who like the randomness of rolling, I don't think they care about what a fickle tart lady luck is.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Rolling for stats in game with as much emphasis on stats as Next doesnt seem well... kosher. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

My brother and I just started playing dnd and when we made our avatars my brother rolled 4 perfect 18's in a row the dm was convenced he was the devil.
Point buy to me is more or less a way to gurantee and 18. 4th ed was more or less built around it and PF it is similar.

 Its really no big deal except mabe in organised player where a stat arrary is more or less the best option. Latest game we player one of my players offered to GM. He let us pick a stat array, point buy or roll. I was the only one who chose to roll and managed to get double 15's and I went with it. The stats were slightly higher than normal but some of the other player took non humans so they ended up with 16's and 17s.  I was joking with the GM that if I rolled low I would just powergame that much harder.

 The only rule he had was if you roll you have to keep and if you conveniently kill off your character your replacement has the same stat array. He wasn't to brutal though as if someone got stuck with lower stats he was going to let them pick a more powerful race that was generally restricted to NPCs.

 More than one way to balance a game. I'm leaning towards 4d6 drop the lowest in order none of this assign how you like stuff.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I generally suggest rolling on a table which creates indentical stat-buy results.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

'I can put my stats how I like them' over 'I'm stuck with what random fate gives me' is more restrictive?  Really?

Point buy is restrictive, only in that it encourages game designers to require certain values for competence.  Because they know you can put a 15 in your main stat (and eventually raise it to 20), they can then expect you to do so and design content with that in mind.  Then, because they expect you to have those values, you are obligated to allocate them as such in order to not fall behind, which means you have no points left over for anything interesting.

To put it another way, point buy prevents your fighter from having high charisma (if you are trying to maximize your competence in your role as fighter); random rolling at least leaves it open as a possibility (because you have no resources to allocate, so you can't be penalized for failing to invest in any given stat).

The metagame is not the game.

 
To put it another way, point buy prevents your fighter from having high charisma (if you are trying to maximize your competence in your role as fighter); 



I want some very fightery classic tricks like feints and deceptive false openings (alah come and get it).
also give me spirited charge and battle roars and maneuvers that provide a boost base on cleverness and spirit and inspiration and so on... I want mental attributes to interact with fighting in non class specific ways.

Combine those with rules like the charisma based attunement... and paladin boons/blessings and geasa that are not actually class dependent. 

Make charisma broadly useful so that a Fighter who was Str/Cha is awesome. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

When I think of a hybrid method I think of giving the players 17,15,14 to put where they want and then have them roll the three other stats. 

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

I generally suggest rolling on a table which creates indentical stat-buy results.

So... rolling for variance only?

What might be interesting is 3d6 x3, then subtract each of those rolls from 21 for the other three stats.
'I can put my stats how I like them' over 'I'm stuck with what random fate gives me' is more restrictive?  Really?

Point buy is restrictive, only in that it encourages game designers to require certain values for competence.  Because they know you can put a 15 in your main stat (and eventually raise it to 20), they can then expect you to do so and design content with that in mind.  Then, because they expect you to have those values, you are obligated to allocate them as such in order to not fall behind, which means you have no points left over for anything interesting.

To put it another way, point buy prevents your fighter from having high charisma (if you are trying to maximize your competence in your role as fighter); random rolling at least leaves it open as a possibility (because you have no resources to allocate, so you can't be penalized for failing to invest in any given stat).




So, you have the freedom to build your character how you like, like I said.  If you want a high Charisma, you just give yourself one.  If not, you don't.

There is no problem here.

If someone wants to optimize, let him.  If someone doesn't, they don't have to.  If the system is properly designed, the difference between the two will be minimal enough that it won't matter.
I generally suggest rolling on a table which creates indentical stat-buy results.

So... rolling for variance only?
 



It fullfills the parameters of what many if not most of those who say they want the die rolls claim they do it for... and means they integrate fine with somebody who is using point buy wanting the choice.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

'I can put my stats how I like them' over 'I'm stuck with what random fate gives me' is more restrictive?  Really?

Point buy is restrictive, only in that it encourages game designers to require certain values for competence.  Because they know you can put a 15 in your main stat (and eventually raise it to 20), they can then expect you to do so and design content with that in mind.  Then, because they expect you to have those values, you are obligated to allocate them as such in order to not fall behind, which means you have no points left over for anything interesting.

To put it another way, point buy prevents your fighter from having high charisma (if you are trying to maximize your competence in your role as fighter); random rolling at least leaves it open as a possibility (because you have no resources to allocate, so you can't be penalized for failing to invest in any given stat).


I couldn't have put this any better....
'I can put my stats how I like them' over 'I'm stuck with what random fate gives me' is more restrictive?  Really?

Point buy is restrictive, only in that it encourages game designers to require certain values for competence.  Because they know you can put a 15 in your main stat (and eventually raise it to 20), they can then expect you to do so and design content with that in mind.  Then, because they expect you to have those values, you are obligated to allocate them as such in order to not fall behind, which means you have no points left over for anything interesting.

To put it another way, point buy prevents your fighter from having high charisma (if you are trying to maximize your competence in your role as fighter); random rolling at least leaves it open as a possibility (because you have no resources to allocate, so you can't be penalized for failing to invest in any given stat).


I couldn't have put this any better....


Bad design in one area, requiring higher attributes for competency (which I'm not saying has been proven), does not make other elements that aren't badly designed, like array and point buy, restrictive.  It is the fault of the bad design, not the elements that interact with it.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Rolling scores is bad design?

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

Rolling scores is bad design?

Assuming at least a 15 in prime is bad design.

Rolling scores is bad design?



Rolling scores is bad design?

Assuming at least a 15 in prime is bad design.


Qmark is correct.  Rolling is just a personal preference.  Assuming high scores is the bad design I mentioned.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.