Alt spells for Rituals


2e had the most spells with less types of magic users than its predecessors.

The spells werent reasonably consolidated. We have even more cure X wounds than we did in 2e.

We didnt just lose redundant spells either. We lost spells like Ventriloquism (sp?). That spell represented a noncombat nonritual sort that were removed.

I was reminded about the death of those types of spells when Selune used the spell on Onyx the Invincible to force him into buying a round for her tavern after he threatened to reveal her identity as a goddess. It was too fast for a ritual and not ‘viable’ enough for AEDU.

I’m such a hippie when it comes to game design. Man if you don’t build organic you are going to have organic flaws and that’s the crux of my issue with Rituals. The original rituals were like lost pups that didn’t fit the power card and were too traditional to ditch thus they were never created. They were categorized.


 


I’m a big proponent for creating magic in abundance with strategic implications and flavor. I have larger issues with 5e’s current direction so I’m just laying this as a prologue.

I haven’t played much 4e. For those that have what can you say about rituals? From my observations they appear to lack to three major traits and some minor traits that I’ll lay off of for now.


 



  1. They lack signature. 
    I have never read or heard anyone describe a ritual that was unique enough to sell me on the concept. So many of them are former spells with little variation. With the added time and expense I would hope they be more powerful or at least do cooler stuff.
        
        
        

  2. They lack narrative
         It’s a result of lacking signature, depth, creativity and maintenance.
        
        

  3.  They lack balance
         4e was a rebuild on magic with old parts. 
         
          


Rituals through CUIRE instinct

Comfort
Rituals are uncomfortable for a DM because they are tied to a fractured economic system.


 


Unpredictability


Rituals lack unpredictability because they require static ingredients and produce static results.

Intensity


Rituals lack Intensity because they are static. Maybe the threat of losing a perm point in an ability score or the possibility of charming someone who is a thousand miles away might bolster intensity.


 


Realism


Rituals lack realism because their cost is static and we don’t even know the actual ingredients. Thus we lose the flavor of having certain rituals with more commonalty in certain areas or the quest to find such rare ingredients.


 


Enlightenment
Players will not feel as if they are learning and improving since there is no way to ‘better’ a ritual.


 Based on my CUIRE instincts rituals are poorly designed. Or maybe I’m a Grog that needs to go back into his cave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kex7tp7536Y

New 5e Playtest review


D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

Ventriloquism, can just be a cantrip.

Also, you could have "ritual" things that only take a few seconds and no money to cast. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

"Ritual" is just shorthand for "don't cast this in combat, you knob!"
Treat it as such.
I think every spell, including combat spells, should be able to be ritualized.
I think every spell, including combat spells, should be able to be ritualized.

This too.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

So tell me why would a mage cast a fireball as a ritual? Making every spell a ritual is a waste of time balancing potential exploits. This time would be better spent cteating rituals that were created to be rituals.
As I wrote in the survey: I would feel more comfortable making most, if not all, of the 6th-9th level spells ritual only. This is a bit trickier when there aren't ritual versions of some of this stuff. I may hate the idea of lower level utility spells being ritual only, because I love utility spells, but higher level spells go beyond simple utility. So to the topic title; agreed, for many reasons. (I JUST now realized it said "alt" instead of "all". Whoops.)


To the question: "...For those that have, what can you say about rituals?" To me, rituals felt like they were a punishment to people who wanted to play utility casters. "You want to do something else than attack? Get in the corner you game breaker!" I know that's not their intention at all, but it just turned out that way for me. They cost money, they cost time, and the best thing I did with one was clean the crap off my horse. How fulfilling.

I kind of want to experiment how rituals would work in 4e if you removed the money restriction and removed the "special stuff in one spot" restriction. Keep the time, but make it so it's all happening in the caster's head or something so you don't have to make the party stop adventuring. I don't want to ask the other PCs if they could sit around and do nothing for 15 mins while I try something.
I think every spell, including combat spells, should be able to be ritualized.

This too.

thirded.
So tell me why would a mage cast a fireball as a ritual?

Siegecraft.


So tell me why would a mage cast a fireball as a ritual? Making every spell a ritual is a waste of time balancing potential exploits. This time would be better spent cteating rituals that were created to be rituals.



You don't have it memorized and you come to something you need burned before your next rest.  Combat spells won't often be used as rituals, but there are definate uses for them as rituals.
I think every spell, including combat spells, should be able to be ritualized.


I agree.

But to Rory's initial point, I agree in part, and I disagree in part.  Each of the factors he identifies has its advantages and its drawbacks.

Signature.  I'm not a big fan of "signature".  For me, "signature" means quirky for quirkiness' sake.  I much prefer rituals to be iconic.  Resurrection. Hallucinatory terrain. Permanent Image. These feel like things a ritualist can perform.  Otto's irresistable dance?  That's a cute siganture for an NPC, but when everybody gets it, the whole world begins to feel like Dance, Dance, Revolution!

Narrative. I'm not sure which spells Rory refers to.  I do think 4e had a problem with naming conventions, often choosing names that weren't particularly useful.  But overall, I felt most rituals have a narrative role to play.  The only exception was Comrade's Succor, which let people share healign surges.  That felt entirely without narrative.  It was just a kludge for spackling over some mechanics.

Balance. I have no idea what Rory's balance issue is.  I didn't find rituals to be unbalanced at all.

Comfort (aka Cost).  I agree with Rory that tying rituals to economics was problematic.  In my very first blog three years ago, I said the same thing.

Unpredictability. I'm not sure that unpredictability is a real drawback.  But I also disagree that rituals (at least in 4e) were not unpredictable.  Most rituals required a Skill check to determine their duration or the extent of their success.  So 4e rituals were absolutely unpredictable.  I'm indifferent, however, as to whether that was a good or bad thing.  I think it depends on the specific ritual in question.

Intensity (aka Consequences).  I also am not sure that consequences are a good or bad thing.  They always seemed very contrived.  In 3e, spells might come with XP costs, which I hated.  Permanent ability loss was basically just a way to make a spell NPC-only.  I think this is as bad a way to balance rituals as costs were.

Realism (aka components).  This is really a toss-up.  On the one hand "residuum" is a completely flavorless and arbitrary mechanic that is just another word for "gold".  On the other hand, tracking ritual components is an exercise in mind-numbing accounting.  Component collection is yet another bad way to limit ritual use.  That should, at best, be a module for people who enjoy sifting through bazaar merchants for homespun wool and glass rods for their shocking grasp spells.

Enlightenment (aka advancement).  I'm not sure I understand the complaint.  When could you ever "better a ritual"?  I think advancement comes when the spellcaster's DCs and skills improve, thus allowing him to get better results from his rituals.  He also advances by finding more rituals.  I don't want metamagic feats like Maximize Ritual and Enlarge Ritual.  That sort of 3e system mastery was always more tedious than evocative to me.


In the end, I see a few legitimate complaints...
Restrictions. There needs to be a way to limit rituals, but not with gold, fiddly components, or XP costs.  Personally, I think a ritualist should simply get to attempt a certain number of levels of rituals per day, or have a certain number of levels of active rituals at one time.  (A permanence ritual may be used to extend that number.)  

Flavor. Rituals should be iconic and the consequences of castign them should naturally and logically flow from the sort of ritual you aree casting.  Signature rituals should really be limited to the ritualist who crafts it or those who sacrifice something dear to learn it as that signature ritualist's protege.  Modules can exist to add even more flavor, such as a module for ritual components or a module for special rituals that allow you to "better" a ritual.
So tell me why would a mage cast a fireball as a ritual? Making every spell a ritual is a waste of time balancing potential exploits. This time would be better spent cteating rituals that were created to be rituals.

A wizard can already cast fireball as a ritual.  It just take 48 hours and 6 seconds.....

I think dropping it to 30 minutes would be a bit more balanced.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

So tell me why would a mage cast a fireball as a ritual?

Siegecraft.


Needing to burn something is not a reason and please explain this Siegecraft.
Comfort (aka Cost).  I agree with Rory that tying rituals to economics was problematic.  In my very first blog three years ago, I said the same thing.

The way gold scaled in 4e, the cost of casting lower level rituals quickly became negliable.

I mean, you could have fastidiousness running for an entire year of the gold you found from a level 10 orc minion you accedently steped on.

It was only at-level rituals that where restricted in any way.  But you still could usually afford a few castings without toubling yourself.

Restrictions. There needs to be a way to limit rituals, but not with gold, fiddly components, or XP costs.  Personally, I think a ritualist should simply get to attempt a certain number of levels of rituals per day, or have a certain number of levels of active rituals at one time.  (A permanence ritual may be used to extend that number.)

I liked the ones that took surges.

It would actually scale better with 5e's hit dice.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Needing to burn something is not a reason.


Why isn't that a reason?

Orcs are holed up in a vault.  You give them ten minutes to come out or your fighter will bash the door down and your wizard incinerates them.  The wizard casts fireball as a ritual and the fighter bashes the door down just as the ritual casting ends.  It's a perfectly good and evocative reason to cast fireball as a ritual.  If the orcs come out, you interrupt the ritual without losing any spell slots.

Sound like a good reason to me.
Needing to burn something is not a reason and please explain this Siegecraft.



Paladin: I seek the holy grail.
Guard: Will you give me a spanking?
Paladin: No....
Guard: Then you can't come in.

Rogue: Mabey if we build a giant rabbit...
(2 hours later)
Rogue:  10 on my bluff check
Guard: You smell of eldeberries.

Tim the Wizard: How about i lob a giant ball of fire at them?
Rogue: But you didn't prepare it today.
Tim the Wizard (with rituals): Give me 30 minutes.
Tim the Wizard (without ritual): Guess it's time to sleep.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Needing to burn something is not a reason and please explain this Siegecraft.



Um, you sorta don't have the ability to declare reasons as "not reasons."  Sorry buddy.   You can disagree with it, but you have no power to actually change it from a reason into something else.
The question is... why would you NOT want to?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Needing to burn something is not a reason.


Why isn't that a reason?

Orcs are holed up in a vault.  You give them ten minutes to come out or your fighter will bash the door down and your wizard incinerates them.  The wizard casts fireball as a ritual and the fighter bashes the door down just as the ritual casting ends.  It's a perfectly good and evocative reason to cast fireball as a ritual.  If the orcs come out, you interrupt the ritual without losing any spell slots.

Sound like a good reason to me.




You aren’t casting it as a ritual you are casting it as a delayed blast fireball. It’s just a really slow spell. This is metamagic.


If it isn’t metamagic then you have to assume someone would really create this ritual. I cant think of any reason why they would. This is also really stupid on the player’s side. If the Orcs interrupt the spell the players will lose a lot more than a spell slot. If the player’s aren’t afraid of the Orcs then this is nothing but bait. They would be better off using a feinting cantrip to pretend they are going to summon a demon or something.




The question is... why would you NOT want to?




Good question though I have already answered much of it.


 



  1. Fireball is a horrible ritual.
    You are going to spend resources and time just to throw a ball of fire? You could have accomplished the same with a pitch bomb. Its inorganic design. Why would anyone create this? If you want fire produce fire.  



  2. It’s not balanced. This bloats spells for no gain since most combat spells are inadequate as rituals. So now we are either left with spells that were never created to be rituals or we have a handful of good rituals lost with all these shoddy spell imports that are rarely used.   



  3. It continues to coddle magic users. I don’t mind a little high level caster dominance but dont make it easy. Almost all of these spells required casting time, components, and ability requirements at risk of spell failure in AD&D. In 5e the spells cast like Xmen powers and rituals are just a form of metamagic.



  4. Its time spent from actually making ground up rituals. That is the crux of my post. I want unpredictable, intense rituals that require actual components and sacrifice. I don’t want metamagic I want metagame. I want a game that can be won, lost and improved on.  I want something that has its own depth and complexity. Something that could carry half a witch class. I’m not going to get that with metamagic.





Rory, I'm not discussing this with you.  I gave a whole reasoned post and you nitpicked one line and blew it into something, well, incomprehensible.  We write things and you just repeat yourself;  It really doesn't seem to matter what we write.  I don't feel like enabling your lectures.  I'd love to read your blog, but this life' too short to engage in this sprt of one-way conversation.
I'd rather they didn't just let you cast ritualized fireball all day with no consequence.

Now if they made it so if you get interrupted casting a ritualized damage spell there was a backlash, I could get behind that.
Hmm...

Interupt the wizard, and the fireball blows up in place in 1d6 turns.

Sounds fun.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Wrecan. I gave it some thought amd your example doesnt hold. The main reason is that its not something an character would create in the typical setting and imo we should save atypical spells for mods. I read your detailed reaponse and im thinking about it, digesting it. No time for a worthy response.
You don't need to bloat anything. Just make it a general rule.

"You can cast spells you have prepaired as rituals. It takes 10 minutes per spell slot. Some spells have exceptions. Use those rules instead".

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I cant think of any reason why they would.



The really great news is that you don't even have to think of any.  We've given you multiple reasons already.

Fireball is a horrible ritual.
You are going to spend resources and time just to throw a ball of fire? You could have accomplished the same with a pitch bomb. Its inorganic design. Why would anyone create this? If you want fire produce fire.



That you think it's a horrible ritual doesn't actually make it a horrible ritual.  You aren't the one and only person who plays the game.  If you don't like a spell as a ritual......don't use it.    

It’s not balanced. This bloats spells for no gain since most combat spells are inadequate as rituals. So now we are either left with spells that were never created to be rituals or we have a handful of good rituals lost with all these shoddy spell imports that are rarely used.



Please.  That's just a load of nonsense.  Balance is irrelevant.  Since for the most part it is weaker to use combat spells as a ritual, it doesn't matter if the PCs use them that way.  As for adequacy, if a PC decides to use a combat spell for a ritual, then that ritual is by definition....adequate.  If it wasn't, it wouldn't be used.  Your False Dichotomoy was also not lost on me. 

It continues to coddle magic users. I don’t mind a little high level caster dominance but dont make it easy. Almost all of these spells required casting time, components, and ability requirements at risk of spell failure in AD&D. In 5e the spells cast like Xmen powers and rituals are just a form of metamagic.



Wait, so now "inadequate" combat rituals make caster dominance easy?  


Ventriloquism, can just be a cantrip.

Also, you could have "ritual" things that only take a few seconds and no money to cast. 



Do you know just OP that could get? Think about it. I can make anyone say anything atwill. Even with a save or two thrown in there you could still start fights with guards and get people killed for threats on VIPs.


The really great news is that you don't even have to think of any.  We've given you multiple reasons already.




Unreasonable reasons. If people arent creating these rituals then its just metamagic on existing spells. Sure you could find some eccentric individual who would take the time to ritualize fireball. Its not common enough to put in a core list. Its not even close to being common enough. No mage is going to walk around with components for something they would only use in extremely odd situations.








That you think it's a horrible ritual doesn't actually make it a horrible ritual.  You aren't the one and only person who plays the game.  If you don't like a spell as a ritual......don't use it.   

 


Im taking a step out of myself and looking at it from a general design point of view. The name Fireball is a horrible name for a Ritual. Why would anyone waste components and time to produce a ball of fire that gets thrown at a target many minutes after the ritual begins? If this is a Siege situation there are hundreds of better suited combat rituals like something that shields and protects, bolsters armies, loosens or topples structures, raises undead to the fight, or summons creatures and plagues.







Please.  That's just a load of nonsense.  Balance is irrelevant.  Since for the most part it is weaker to use combat spells as a ritual, it doesn't matter if the PCs use them that way.  As for adequacy, if a PC decides to use a combat spell for a ritual, then that ritual is by definition....adequate.  If it wasn't, it wouldn't be used.  Your False Dichotomoy was also not lost on me.




Im pro-freedom. A fan of 3e multiclassing and letting every class and character try anything. I draw the line here and I'll explain why. Im against presenting something with numerical levels that suggest near equal value when they arent. If the rituals that were created to be rituals are half decent then they would be many times more useful than a lighting bolt and icestorm ritual. So now you flood the ritual list with a lot of near useless rituals that werent created organically because no wizard would waste components, money and time on such a spell. That is poor game design. Its better to create rituals that people will think about using. Balance is about having real choices. I want ritual casting to be more than metamagic so a player might invest character development into becoming a better ritual caster. 






It continues to coddle magic users. I don’t mind a little high level caster dominance but dont make it easy. Almost all of these spells required casting time, components, and ability requirements at risk of spell failure in AD&D. In 5e the spells cast like Xmen powers and rituals are just a form of metamagic.

Wait, so now "inadequate" combat rituals make caster dominance easy?  






Arcane casters are generally balanced for daily magic. If you give them the ability to cast every ten minutes to an hour then you have to balance that especially if its independent of metamagic. Ok that is doable but why? Do they really need more spells? Do you really want to waste time balancing every spell for the ritual version? I can think of a few that would cause 5 minn work day exploits without polish. The reason why this coddles mages is that it continues to transfer casting variables like time, components, and failure to rituals when I would rather they stay with spells and make rituals even more of a risk/reward. To even make this work you would have to remove spell components from combat rituals. Nobody is going to walk around with components for range combat spells that take forever to cast.  



Signature.  I'm not a big fan of "signature".  For me, "signature" means quirky for quirkiness' sake.  I much prefer rituals to be iconic.  Resurrection. Hallucinatory terrain. Permanent Image. These feel like things a ritualist can perform.  Otto's irresistable dance?  That's a cute siganture for an NPC, but when everybody gets it, the whole world begins to feel like Dance, Dance, Revolution!.




 I dont mean signature between rituals I mean signature between spells and rituals. Even spells that make good rituals could have signature so they are distinguishable from the spell version. I agree though, the actual rituals should be iconic. I just dont see how you are going to produce rituals that are as iconic as Magic Missile when Magic Missile is a ritual. It kinda cheapens the whole concept of ritual magic. 



  

Narrative. I'm not sure which spells Rory refers to.  I do think 4e had a problem with naming conventions, often choosing names that weren't particularly useful.  But overall, I felt most rituals have a narrative role to play.  The only exception was Comrade's Succor, which let people share healign surges.  That felt entirely without narrative.  It was just a kludge for spackling over some mechanics.




The lack of narrative is a symptom of other issues. I'm not talking about DM tales, im talking about players making threads or chatting on the bus. As long as Im able to make a decent argument that rituals are metamagic I can grantee you that most discussions about rituals will evolve around exploits and min maxing.





Balance. I have no idea what Rory's balance issue is.  I didn't find rituals to be unbalanced at all.



See my response to Maxperson.  



Unpredictability. I'm not sure that unpredictability is a real drawback.  But I also disagree that rituals (at least in 4e) were not unpredictable.  Most rituals required a Skill check to determine their duration or the extent of their success.  So 4e rituals were absolutely unpredictable.  I'm indifferent, however, as to whether that was a good or bad thing.  I think it depends on the specific ritual in question.




I haven’t articulated what I really want from these alt spells. On a simple level I want what a few others have called for. I want them to be a real wing of magic that could almost carry a class. I want more mysticism and sacrifice. There is more but I'm still thinking about it.





Intensity (aka Consequences).  I also am not sure that consequences are a good or bad thing.  They always seemed very contrived.  In 3e, spells might come with XP costs, which I hated.  Permanent ability loss was basically just a way to make a spell NPC-only.  I think this is as bad a way to balance rituals as costs were.

Realism (aka components).  This is really a toss-up.  On the one hand "residuum" is a completely flavorless and arbitrary mechanic that is just another word for "gold".  On the other hand, tracking ritual components is an exercise in mind-numbing accounting.  Component collection is yet another bad way to limit ritual use.  That should, at best, be a module for people who enjoy sifting through bazaar merchants for homespun wool and glass rods for their shocking grasp spells.

Enlightenment (aka advancement).  I'm not sure I understand the complaint.  When could you ever "better a ritual"?  I think advancement comes when the spellcaster's DCs and skills improve, thus allowing him to get better results from his rituals.  He also advances by finding more rituals.  I don't want metamagic feats like Maximize Ritual and Enlarge Ritual.  That sort of 3e system mastery was always more tedious than evocative to me.
 

In the end, I see a few legitimate complaints...
Restrictions. There needs to be a way to limit rituals, but not with gold, fiddly components, or XP costs.  Personally, I think a ritualist should simply get to attempt a certain number of levels of rituals per day, or have a certain number of levels of active rituals at one time.  (A permanence ritual may be used to extend that number.)  

Flavor. Rituals should be iconic and the consequences of castign them should naturally and logically flow from the sort of ritual you aree casting.  Signature rituals should really be limited to the ritualist who crafts it or those who sacrifice something dear to learn it as that signature ritualist's protege.  Modules can exist to add even more flavor, such as a module for ritual components or a module for special rituals that allow you to "better" a ritual.



Gold no, xp no, components can play a real part. Maybe not the fiddly varietyLaughing. Those are easy for a DM to manage.


We are in the meat of game design here.  I have some ideas behind the scenes. For now Im just pointing at something that doesnt jive right.



The lack of narrative is a symptom of other issues. I'm not talking about DM tales, im talking about players making threads or chatting on the bus. As long as Im able to make a decent argument that rituals are metamagic I can grantee you that most discussions about rituals will evolve around exploits and min maxing.



Maybe most of the discussions that players at your table have.   
People should be able to throw their voice at-will, without magic. I see no reason it would be OP for a mage. Expecially if it took longer to pull off, or he had to use a prepaired slot.

People can lob balls of fire without magic. It takes longer to setup a catapult, but you'd get more distance, and could fire faster once you do. I see no reason it would be OP on a mage (who would be in bow range).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I just dont see how you are going to produce rituals that are as iconic as Magic Missile when Magic Missile is a ritual. 


Rory, I am really struggling to understand your point here, but I don't.  That sentence I quoted makes no sense from a grammatical standpoint.  If magic missile is iconic and a ritual, it is an iconic ritual.  Could you explain what you mean?
  
As long as Im able to make a decent argument that rituals are metamagic I can grantee you that most discussions about rituals will evolve around exploits and min maxing.


Um... what?  Are we designing the game aorund what you imagine conversations on the bus will be?  How are the rest of us supposed to contribute to a conversation based on such... unusual criteria.  You seem to be writing with lingo that you understand but I don't have the context to get. 

See my response to Maxperson. 


I did.  I still have no idea what your point is with regard to balance.

I want what a few others have called for. I want them to be a real wing of magic that could almost carry a class. I want more mysticism and sacrifice. There is more but I'm still thinking about it.


Okay.  I don't know what any of this means.  Let me know when you've thought sufficiently about it that you can articulate it in a comprehensible manner for the rest of us.

Gold no, xp no, components can play a real part. Maybe not the fiddly varietyLaughing.


So what components do you mean?  I've only ever seen components be fiddly exercises in bookkeeping (bat guano and glass rods) or proxies for gold (residuum, "spell component bags", and "arcane components").
For now Im just pointing at something that doesnt jive right.


And I'd love to help you make it "jive".  But I can't tell what the issue is.

The most I can figure out is that you think that the idea of ritualizing spells feels too much like "metamagic", in that it a generic rule for transforming spells to rituals is problematic.  But I can't figure out why you think it. 

You seem to think it would encourage optimization, but optimization is always a function of options.  I can guarantee you that if we replace ritual rules with more spells, or ritual-only spells, people (on the bus and elswhere) will be working on optimizing them as well.

You seem to think it is too generic, but that would depend on the spells being ritualized.  I also don't think you understood my point of non-generic spells, like Otto's Irresistable Dance.  Spells that are insufficiently generic skew the flavor of a fanatsy world.  The rituals and spells that are introduced into the game become the fabric of the game world.  The less generic it is, the fewer fantasy worlds your game will accommodate. 

I'm guessing that what you want is a bunch of rituals with very specific components (like Venus being in the second house, and having three threads woven by three blind sisters) to give it a lot of character.  But those things should not exist in the game as a whole. It's just too fiddly and it makes no sense for most wizards to have such a ritual in their spellbook. 


The really great news is that you don't even have to think of any.  We've given you multiple reasons already.




Unreasonable reasons.




Nope.  Keep trying, though.  Your "one true way" crusade doesn't cut it here.

If people arent creating these rituals then its just metamagic on existing spells.



People ARE creating them and it's not metamagic, despite your unsubstantiated claims.

Sure you could find some eccentric individual who would take the time to ritualize fireball. Its not common enough to put in a core list. Its not even close to being common enough. No mage is going to walk around with components for something they would only use in extremely odd situations.



Just because it doesn't jive with your "one true way", doesn't mean that no mage will do it.

Im taking a step out of myself and looking at it from a general design point of view. The name Fireball is a horrible name for a Ritual. Why would anyone waste components and time to produce a ball of fire that gets thrown at a target many minutes after the ritual begins? If this is a Siege situation there are hundreds of better suited combat rituals like something that shields and protects, bolsters armies, loosens or topples structures, raises undead to the fight, or summons creatures and plagues.



Starts fires...   Look, your "one true way" is not the only way.  Other people deserve to have their playstyles catered to if they are common enough and it won't take up tons of room.  A few sentences to ritualize combat spells is not a bad thing.  You can ignore it.

What I want to know, is why you feel that your way be the only way to play things?  Why should I and everyone else who wants a ritualized fireball not get it?  You can just not use it if you don't like it.


So now you flood the ritual list with a lot of near useless rituals that werent created organically because no wizard would waste components, money and time on such a spell.



There is no list.  Spells that are ritualized just have a few sentences at the end.

I want ritual casting to be more than metamagic so a player might invest character development into becoming a better ritual caster.



Ritual casting is what you make of it and the inclusion of ritual combat spells does not change that.  You can simply say to your group, "No ritualized combat spells in my game." 

Arcane casters are generally balanced for daily magic. If you give them the ability to cast every ten minutes to an hour then you have to balance that especially if its independent of metamagic.



The balance is for combat.  Since rituals are for non-combat, combat spell rituals do not have to be balanced in that way.



People should be able to throw their voice at-will, without magic. I see no reason it would be OP for a mage. Expecially if it took longer to pull off, or he had to use a prepaired slot. People can lob balls of fire without magic. It takes longer to setup a catapult, but you'd get more distance, and could fire faster once you do. I see no reason it would be OP on a mage (who would be in bow range).



The spell does a lot more than throwing your voice. It speaks for them with their own voice and their own lips moving. Being able to spam it atwill means it would be very easy to start a fight with two guards, or get someone's tongue removed for bad mouthing the King.
just a point of view on this. its not that casting ritual spells is metamagic of regular casting.
all wizardry started as rituals. a gathering of magical components and formulae to simulate the effects of spells and magic effects of the natural mages (creatures and sorcerers and whatnot).
the spells per day for a wizard is when the wizard preprepares some components of a ritual (spell preparation) while substituting the rest of the spell with their own energy to insta cast the spell. this is why spells per day are limited based of the class level
The spell does a lot more than throwing your voice. It speaks for them with their own voice and their own lips moving.


What version of the spell are you using?!  3e's version does not specifiy it makes other people's lips appear to move.  Nor does 4'e Prestigitation power.  I don't recall either of AD&D's ventriloquism spells causing other people's lips to move.

Nope.  Keep trying, though.  Your "one true way" crusade doesn't cut it here.




Burning something, having orcs held up and sigecraft are not logical enough reasons for the spell to exist outside of the eccentric machinations of madman. True many wizards are indeed mad but keep the very odd flavorless stuff in mods. Fireball with any component cost is an idiot's or madman's ritual and a fringe case as metamagic.   







People ARE creating them and it's not metamagic, despite your unsubstantiated claims.




Show me a 4e mod or a novel where a caster created a fireball ritual. If you had to do damage to a slow moving target like a house or a even siege equipment there are better ways with mundane stuff or even ritual magic.  Casting fireball as a ritual is something that only some powerful OCD pyromaniac would think of.   







Just because it doesn't jive with your "one true way", doesn't mean that no mage will do it.




Im sure in the imaginations of fantasy there are mages who would like to strip animals naked and collect furry suits out of their skin. Unless you want 2k spells you dont put stuff like that in the core books.








Starts fires...   Look, your "one true way" is not the only way.  Other people deserve to have their playstyles catered to if they are common enough and it won't take up tons of room.  A few sentences to ritualize combat spells is not a bad thing.  You can ignore it.

What I want to know, is why you feel that your way be the only way to play things?  Why should I and everyone else who wants a ritualized fireball not get it?  You can just not use it if you don't like it.



I already explained. Its inefficient design to balance every spell as a ritual especially spells that wont get use. If you disagree then you could at least give a better example than burning stuff. Knowing wotc rituals will continue to feel tact as refugee spells from AEDU. I'm saying cut the fat and make ritual spells that spellcasters In the setting would make. Give me a logic tree for the creation of a ritual.



 



There is no list.  Spells that are ritualized just have a few sentences at the end.




That reads like a metamagic feat and would only be worth using without the component cost. If you are going to be a tad realistic then components are bought before the spell is cast. You have not explained why anyone would spend that money.


Imo rituals should have their own list. I know it doesnt exisit in Next but I expect it to just as it did in 4e. I'm not ready to explain what I want on that list. I can mainly tell you what I dont want.       



Ritual casting is what you make of it and the inclusion of ritual combat spells does not change that.  You can simply say to your group, "No ritualized combat spells in my game." 




This is not a personal vendetta. I dont know anyone who wants to waste their character's money casting a range combat spell that takes 20 minns to shoot or throw. I want a better brand of ritual and I dont think we are going to get it when as Qmark states "Ritual" is just shorthand for "don't cast this in combat, you knob!".


I want rituals as a real wing of magic not just common spells of a different casting time. As long as the devs can just say rituals are spells that are ritualized then Qmark is right and that IMO is inferior to building rituals as a legit independent form of magic.


Lets say rituals had their own list with hand crafted 5e rituals. and a 'ritual master' could cast combat spells as rituals. I would not care. That is fine with me. I would know wotc took the time to make ground up rituals first before they added such a feat.    





The balance is for combat.  Since rituals are for non-combat, combat spell rituals do not have to be balanced in that way.




Are you saying you want combat rituals to be cast without cost and components because they arent used for combat? That is the only way they might work and if we even think about going there we are further from bringing casting time and components to spells. That walk gives the caster a boost that will have to be balanced. The other balance issue that I think is more important and more likely that wotc will miss is the rituals themselves. I'm sure you have played games that offer many options until you learn how many are inferior.

Burning something, having orcs held up and sigecraft are not logical enough reasons for the spell to exist outside of the eccentric machinations of madman.



What are your qualifications that allow you to decide that for all of us?


That reads like a metamagic feat and would only be worth using without the component cost. If you are going to be a tad realistic then components are bought before the spell is cast. You have not explained why anyone would spend that money.



We've explained it several times.  Sticking your head in the sand doesn't change that fact. 

Imo rituals should have their own list. I know it doesnt exisit in Next but I expect it to just as it did in 4e. I'm not ready to explain what I want on that list. I can mainly tell you what I dont want.



You still haven't explained why you should get what you want, but nobody else should.       

This is not a personal vendetta. I dont know anyone who wants to waste their character's money casting a range combat spell that takes 20 minns to shoot or throw.



Great!  Then you wont have an issue when you tell your group no.  That's not a reason that I and my group shouldn't be able to.

I want rituals as a real wing of magic not just common spells of a different casting time. As long as the devs can just say rituals are spells that are ritualized then Qmark is right and that IMO is inferior to building rituals as a legit independent form of magic.



This, finally, is a legitimate argument.  It doesn't exclude ritualizing fireball, but I agree with you that rituals should involve something more than an increased casting time and a bit of gold. 

Lets say rituals had their own list with hand crafted 5e rituals. and a 'ritual master' could cast combat spells as rituals. I would not care. That is fine with me. I would know wotc took the time to make ground up rituals first before they added such a feat.



I see no reason why either one has to be first.  They could very easily be done concurrently.

Are you saying you want combat rituals to be cast without cost and components because they arent used for combat?



No.  I'm saying that they don't have to be balanced with combat in mind.



So your telling me i can't play an OCD pyromancer?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.


Rory, I am really struggling to understand your point here, but I don't.  That sentence I quoted makes no sense from a grammatical standpoint.  If magic missile is iconic and a ritual, it is an iconic ritual.  Could you explain what you mean?




Its competition. Magic Missile and Sleep were on the short list of 1st level damage and debilitating spells. A shorter list of rituals without sharing stage with familiar spells will give them a more prominent role in the game. Magic Missile is iconic as a spell. As a ritual its just bloat. It also cheapens rituals if the best wotc can do is pad the list of rituals with stuff like slow casting Magic Missiles. If the core books have about five rituals per level and they are balanced so each one is relatively useful then they are more likely to resonate with people.







  

Um... what?  Are we designing the game aorund what you imagine conversations on the bus will be?  How are the rest of us supposed to contribute to a conversation based on such... unusual criteria.  You seem to be writing with lingo that you understand but I don't have the context to get. 




I'm in Seattle. If you ride the 545 Microsoft/Nintendo bus enough you will hear people chatting about games of all kind. One major thing that sparks people’s passion to the point where they are going geek mode in public is enlightenment or potential enlightenment.  In games, enlightenment is the feeling that you can navigate through dynamic, and risky factors better than before. So imo for rituals to really become one of the positive aspects there needs to be enough depth and volatility to get people talking about them in a similar way as how mtg players talk.






I did.  I still have no idea what your point is with regard to balance.

 


Rituals are not balanced when some are far more useful than others of the same level.


If every spell can be used as a ritual they will have to be balanced as such.   


If I take your example and flux a little Navy Seal team Six to it I can see a good use for combat rituals. Lets assume Bin Laden wasnt held up with civies. Better yet I can use the Baldur's Gate example when you assault the Iron Throne in their tavern or simply juxtapose any situation where you are undercover and ready to attack first. Why not launch a Meteor Swarm ritual? With the right cover you can hide your intentions. In these situations the caster has a real advantage that would have to be balanced against other classes.



   

So what components do you mean?  I've only ever seen components be fiddly exercises in bookkeeping (bat guano and glass rods) or proxies for gold (residuum, "spell component bags", and "arcane components").



    

I dont mind minor components as proxies for gold as long as they are backed by real items so the price fluctuates with the value. The larger question is how to relate major components and sacrifice. I dont want the party to have to go on a major component quest for every powerful ritual at the same time I want rituals to be more powerful than spells. Im thinking about having a component list that decreases and diversifies with ritual mastery.





  

And I'd love to help you make it "jive".  But I can't tell what the issue is.

The most I can figure out is that you think that the idea of ritualizing spells feels too much like "metamagic", in that it a generic rule for transforming spells to rituals is problematic.  But I can't figure out why you think it. 

You seem to think it would encourage optimization, but optimization is always a function of options.  I can guarantee you that if we replace ritual rules with more spells, or ritual-only spells, people (on the bus and elswhere) will be working on optimizing them as well.

You seem to think it is too generic, but that would depend on the spells being ritualized.  I also don't think you understood my point of non-generic spells, like Otto's Irresistable Dance.  Spells that are insufficiently generic skew the flavor of a fanatsy world.  The rituals and spells that are introduced into the game become the fabric of the game world.  The less generic it is, the fewer fantasy worlds your game will accommodate. 

I'm guessing that what you want is a bunch of rituals with very specific components (like Venus being in the second house, and having three threads woven by three blind sisters) to give it a lot of character.  But those things should not exist in the game as a whole. It's just too fiddly and it makes no sense for most wizards to have such a ritual in their spellbook. 




While I was messing with the rules for martial classes and thinking about how polar opposite Fire Emblem is from Next I started to wonder what if Rituals were as martial stats in Fire Emblem. Just as a Knight in Fire Emblem focuses on DR what if a caster in Next focused  on rituals. Would they then be more witchlike? Could an elite ritual caster help in combat?




Thats when I reexamined my thoughts on rituals. So after thinking about it I found issues and posted them as a basis to create alternative spells. My solutions are still green. I'm listening



Magic Missile is iconic as a spell. As a ritual its just bloat. It also cheapens rituals if the best wotc can do is pad the list of rituals with stuff like slow casting Magic Missiles. If the core books have about five rituals per level and they are balanced so each one is relatively useful then they are more likely to resonate with people.

How is it bloat?  There's just a general rule, all spells are rituals, 10 mintues per level.

And how does it cheapen things?  Rituals are even more versitile, now that you can spend 10 minutes to blast 2 coconuts out of a tree.  Or 30 minutes to light a house on fire.  There's more value, not less.

I mean sure, a fighter could climb the tree, and a rogue could throw a dagger, and both could just use flint.  But a wizard should uses magic.  Even if it takes him 3x as long.

Rituals are not balanced when some are far more useful than others of the same level.


If every spell can be used as a ritual they will have to be balanced as such.

The only regular spells i know of that may unbalance things as rituals are the cure spells.  And you put an exception for those (heals upto X amount).

What other balance issue would there be?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Magic Missile is iconic as a spell. As a ritual its just bloat. It also cheapens rituals if the best wotc can do is pad the list of rituals with stuff like slow casting Magic Missiles. If the core books have about five rituals per level and they are balanced so each one is relatively useful then they are more likely to resonate with people.

How is it bloat?  There's just a general rule, all spells are rituals, 10 mintues per level.

And how does it cheapen things?  Rituals are even more versitile, now that you can spend 10 minutes to blast 2 coconuts out of a tree.  Or 30 minutes to light a house on fire.  There's more value, not less.

I mean sure, a fighter could climb the tree, and a rogue could throw a dagger, and both could just use flint.  But a wizard should uses magic.  Even if it takes him 3x as long.

Rituals are not balanced when some are far more useful than others of the same level.


If every spell can be used as a ritual they will have to be balanced as such.

The only regular spells i know of that may unbalance things as rituals are the cure spells.  And you put an exception for those (heals upto X amount).

What other balance issue would there be?




I don't know about you, but I want rituals to be more than"spend 10 minutes casting and mark off x gold".  I want ritual casting times to vary according to the power of the spell, and I want ritual componants to be named and be sought out. 

For example, if you want to cast the knock ritual, you should be prepared to spend 20 minutes (abitrary number) and have some wax candles for the pentagram and shavings of rhino horn on you to place in the middle of the pentagram to be consumed.