Why is jund considered skillless

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Outside of bloodbraid elf and the cascade mechanic, how is jund an autopilot deck? If the elf were to get banned, and jund still existed, it seems to me like it would be a pretty consistent and interactive midrange deck.

Is it the fact that there are no tutors and deck manipulation cards that makes it so perceivably easy to play? I.e. you use what you draw into, without having a say what it is exactly you draw.

Compared to cards like mystical teachings, serum visions, birthing pod, and faithless looting, jund really has no manipulation or tutors.

I think green suns zenith or senseis top would go a long way in increasing options and thus skill in the modern format. I do like the new rg creature tutor although i dont think it would be quite good enough 
Jund isn't considered a skillful deck because it's lines are pretty straightforward.  However, I have never heard anyone say it is "skillless".

For example, here's the full line of play you'd see from a typical draw.  Turn 1:  If Deathrite Shaman is in your hand, play it.  If not, Thoughtseize.  If that's not in your hand, hold up Lightning Bolt for their turn 1 play.  Turn 2:  Play Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, or if they left the Shaman alive, play a 3-drop or a 2-drop and Thoughtseize.  Turn 3:  Play removal or an accelerated Elf.

That's basically it.  There really aren't all that many decisions to be made.  If you ever watch someone stream the deck online, notice how often they don't have to actually describe their plays, or if they do, how often the very first line they talk about (i.e. the most obvious) is the one they determine is the best.

Frankly, GSZ and Top wouldn't do much to the format.  Top would just make combo way to consistent to be fair.  GSZ would probably be fine.  Banning anything in Jund would do exactly nothing, as it's really just a "good stuff" deck.  It's not like the deck revolves around any one card, it's just that every card is so good at gaining value that the full list is really good.

You also can't say that the deck has no manipulation.  That's what Bloodbraid Elf is: card selection.  The cascade mechanic puts all the lands you would have drawn on the bottom, leaving you more likely to draw gas.

I do think they need to up control's power in the format.  The format is all combo, hyper-aggro and Jund.  I think if they let something like Jace, the Mind Sculptor free, it wouldn't be too bad and would give control a major boost.
Jund isn't considered a skillful deck because it's lines are pretty straightforward.  However, I have never heard anyone say it is "skillless".

For example, here's the full line of play you'd see from a typical draw.  Turn 1:  If Deathrite Shaman is in your hand, play it.  If not, Thoughtseize.  If that's not in your hand, hold up Lightning Bolt for their turn 1 play.  Turn 2:  Play Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, or if they left the Shaman alive, play a 3-drop or a 2-drop and Thoughtseize.  Turn 3:  Play removal or an accelerated Elf.

That's basically it.  There really aren't all that many decisions to be made.  If you ever watch someone stream the deck online, notice how often they don't have to actually describe their plays, or if they do, how often the very first line they talk about (i.e. the most obvious) is the one they determine is the best.

Frankly, GSZ and Top wouldn't do much to the format.  Top would just make combo way to consistent to be fair.  GSZ would probably be fine.  Banning anything in Jund would do exactly nothing, as it's really just a "good stuff" deck.  It's not like the deck revolves around any one card, it's just that every card is so good at gaining value that the full list is really good.

You also can't say that the deck has no manipulation.  That's what Bloodbraid Elf is: card selection.  The cascade mechanic puts all the lands you would have drawn on the bottom, leaving you more likely to draw gas.

I do think they need to up control's power in the format.  The format is all combo, hyper-aggro and Jund.  I think if they let something like Jace, the Mind Sculptor free, it wouldn't be too bad and would give control a major boost.

Yeah i think jace would be ok if it was in the format, cryptic command is better a lot of the time anyway.

Although maybe players should just use the latest jace instead. I think control can work, its just too difficult to answer affinity, jund, storm, and tron all at once.

I see what you mean about jund that makes sense. Still, bbe is one of the biggest problems in the deck since youncan either cheat into play liliana or whiff and get a removal spell instead with no legal target.

I would love to have the arrtifact lands back to put tezzeret and thirst for knowledge to use. Chrome mox as well. Im sure theres a better card to ban from affinity. Cranial plating?

The new Jace is terrible.  The card does absolutely nothing.

It's not to difficult to answer all those different decks.  In fact, the fringe U/W Control deck does it pretty well.  The problem is that the deck quickly runs out of steam.  Without good card draw, the deck is just too inconsistent and too slow.  JtMS would solve that because it is a threat, board control and card draw all in one.

Elf is not a problem in the slightest.  It's just a two-for-one.  It only seems like it's a probably because of how the rest of the deck works.  By the time Jund is casting a BBE, it's effectively 1-for-1ed probably 3-4 times, and generated a little value from Deathrite Shamans, Dark Confidants or such along the way.  BBE is just the final nail in the coffin.  Plus, most of the good Jund lists aren't play Liliana any more.

Artifact lands are a terrible idea.  Affinity is already powerful enough, and with the colored artifact lands, the deck is broken.  Keep in mind that when it was all in Standard, they literally had to ban something like 8 cards.  Otherwise known as the entire deck.  I'd say just having 4 cards banned is good enough.

Chrome Mox is equally bad.  The format does not have access to a reasonable Force of Will (quiet, Disrupting Shoal, adults are talking...).  Chrome Mox would let combo decks go off at least a full turn earlier.  Since most of the combo decks can go off turn 3/4, through disruption, being able to do that on turn 2/3 would literally break the format.  The counterspells in the format are already mediocre, so imagaine it if they were literally useless.

Nothing needs to be banned in Modern.  The format is pretty healthy when the best deck is the fairest deck possible.  If anything, things need to be unbanned so that there can be diversity in the fair decks.  Right now, it's literally you play combo, you play aggro (Burn or Affinity mostly) or you play Jund.

The new Jace is terrible.  The card does absolutely nothing.

It's not to difficult to answer all those different decks.  In fact, the fringe U/W Control deck does it pretty well.  The problem is that the deck quickly runs out of steam.  Without good card draw, the deck is just too inconsistent and too slow.  JtMS would solve that because it is a threat, board control and card draw all in one.

Elf is not a problem in the slightest.  It's just a two-for-one.  It only seems like it's a probably because of how the rest of the deck works.  By the time Jund is casting a BBE, it's effectively 1-for-1ed probably 3-4 times, and generated a little value from Deathrite Shamans, Dark Confidants or such along the way.  BBE is just the final nail in the coffin.  Plus, most of the good Jund lists aren't play Liliana any more.

Artifact lands are a terrible idea.  Affinity is already powerful enough, and with the colored artifact lands, the deck is broken.  Keep in mind that when it was all in Standard, they literally had to ban something like 8 cards.  Otherwise known as the entire deck.  I'd say just having 4 cards banned is good enough.

Chrome Mox is equally bad.  The format does not have access to a reasonable Force of Will (quiet, Disrupting Shoal, adults are talking...).  Chrome Mox would let combo decks go off at least a full turn earlier.  Since most of the combo decks can go off turn 3/4, through disruption, being able to do that on turn 2/3 would literally break the format.  The counterspells in the format are already mediocre, so imagaine it if they were literally useless.

Nothing needs to be banned in Modern.  The format is pretty healthy when the best deck is the fairest deck possible.  If anything, things need to be unbanned so that there can be diversity in the fair decks.  Right now, it's literally you play combo, you play aggro (Burn or Affinity mostly) or you play Jund.


Is chrome mox acceleration really that different from turn one mana dork or turn two pentad prism? And which combo would use the mox? Not tron. Not storm. Possibly twin. As nauseum combo could come back. Control would get a huge boost from it.
Mox is WAY different from t1 dork. It requires different answers, puts up the mana instantly and only fits into decks that don't mind being down a card. The only remotely sane argument for unbanning it is that based control would be able to run thirst.

JtMS would be horrible. Bad idea is bad. Jitte/clamp levels of bad.

Ancestral Visions and BB, on the other hand...

Well, lets look at BB. Even assuming it's better than it was in standard, it'd still be heavily reliant on seize to not die to affinity and starts playing the game a turn after affinity does. Seize plating, BB on the play is their best case scenario. Against Jund they'd just hit too many save or dies and there are too many good anti-fae cards now. Fae would HAVE to wait for a meta of conbo and control, even with Visions.

Visions... Would enable control the way thirst/mox would withought beibg loltastic for combo.
76783093 wrote:
Luckily, we have stop-having-fun guys to remind us that having anything more than 60 cards in your deck is tantamount to being a rapist and anyone considering it should be strung up by their ****.
It takes more skill than it did in Standard, if that makes you feel any better. It also takes more skill than most of the combo decks.

(at)MrEnglish22

It takes more skill than it did in Standard, if that makes you feel any better. It also takes more skill than most of the combo decks.


STOP THE ****ING PRESSES
Did you just say that combo isn't skill-intensive?  Have you ever PLAYED storm-based combo?

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

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139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
"Most" combo decks.  Turn 3 Deceiver Exarch end step, untap Splinter Twin?  Yeah, that's skillful.  Or natural turn 3 Tron into Karn Liberated.  Well played, sir, well played...

Really, Storm isn't that hard either.  Pod isn't in terms of it's combo, as you just have to memorize what chains allow you to win immediately, and there's only like 5-6 of them.  Eggs is mildly skill intensive, but most of the time it's just draw a bunch of cards, Ghost Quarter a lot, make lots of mana, repeat until your opponent concedes.
"Most" combo decks.  Turn 3 Deceiver Exarch end step, untap Splinter Twin?  Yeah, that's skillful.  Or natural turn 3 Tron into Karn Liberated.  Well played, sir, well played...

Really, Storm isn't that hard either.  Pod isn't in terms of it's combo, as you just have to memorize what chains allow you to win immediately, and there's only like 5-6 of them.  Eggs is mildly skill intensive, but most of the time it's just draw a bunch of cards, Ghost Quarter a lot, make lots of mana, repeat until your opponent concedes.


You have no idea what you're talking about.  Mana management, which involves estimating the probabilities of drawing specific cards at a later time that need mana of a certain color and estimating the probability that you will draw mana fixing/production of a certain color by then, as well as the relative importance of being able to cast one card vs being able to cast another card, knowing when to go off, which involves knowing what possible hate they could have and on what turn, and how likely they are to have it and how likely it is to make you fizzle vs how much less likely you will be to fizzle if you get another turn, as well as deciding whether the possibility of them untapping for additional countermagic, which they may or may not have, and if they do have, will be to varying extents, and all of which they may already be able to cast with their remaining mana, is sufficient reason to go off now, as opposed to waiting for more land, which, if you don't have it in hand, you may or may not draw, and more draw steps, which may or may not affect whether you go off successfully or not, and, if you're playing pauper storm or your much-maligned eggs, chromatic stars/spheres, also, knowing how much the damage you will take that turn will affect your ability to successfully combo off, because some storm cards (gitaxian probe, sign in blood, ad nauseum) involve paying life, the little mini-goings-off you do for value (or because you whiffed), knowing when to do those, knowing when to stop mini-going-off to maximize your ability to go off on a future turn, knowing how to "go off" in such a way as to maximize your ability to stop trying to go off at a future time and be able to try again int he near future, knowing which card draw spells/dig to use first, knowing what you want to take with those dig spells, knowing what hate you could possibly face, knowing how to maximize your number of outs to a hate card before you die, knowing how to play around countermagic and hedge your bets against various counterspells they could have (and the possibility that they just don't have countermagic), knowing what to pitch vs discard and what to take with your own discard spells, proper sideboarding, which involves knowing what hate they might have, estimating the probability that they have it, and deciding whether siding in a given card as hate for it will do enough that it makes it worth diluting your deck for, knowing how to use your sideboard to counter hate.

All this is just storm combo decks.   Would you like me to detail the intricacies of 2 card combo decks?

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

Show
139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
I currently play a one-card combo deck with more decision trees than cat just pointed out.

If you think even the most linear and straightforward combo decks are "autopilot" decks, then you're playing them wrong.
Etiamnunc sto, etiamsi caelum ruat.
FWIW, Top isn't banned because it makes combo too good.

With Top in the format, 50% of matches end in draws due to time