Need help finding the last piece of the puzzle

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Okay, that title wasn't very informative, but it might have gotten you interested enough to check it out. I'll start off by explaining what I'm trying to do. I've got this image in my mind of a character repeatedly smashing his enemies away only to pull them back into his range. That by itself is easy via Mark of Storm and one of the many options to increase the distance of slides. However, I also want to take advantage of Draconic Arrogance, so I need a push followed by a pull/slide. To make matters a little more complicated, I want to do this in a multi-attacking build that will actually be played 1-30. The end result being a character that seems to be playing with a yo-yo. Oh but wait, on top of all that I'm trying to work in Morninglord.

To summarize the pieces I need:

  • Multi-attacks + Push + Pull/Slide

  • Radiant damage

  • Dragonborn

  • Fighter

  • Morninglord


The best I could figure out so far would be a Dragonborn Barbarian|Fighter MC Cleric/Morninglord/Reincarnate Champion (Gnoll+Goliath) that could bust this trick out 1/enc. I'd still be able to "yo-yo" enemies once per turn, but I could only "yo-yo" with a multi-attack 1/enc.
Also, it's 6 feats devoted to a 1/enc trick that doesn't kick in until level 24:

  • Draconic Arrogance

  • Avalanche Reaver

  • Fierce Charge

  • Brutal Charge

  • Spirits of the Primal Dragons (assuming this can be triggered by a Blood Fury weapon)

  • Mark of Storm


The big problem I'm having is attaching a push to my multi-attack. The rest can be done in several ways that I'm aware of. So if someone could help find the last piece, then I can finish the puzzle (oh look the title wasn't total nonsense afterall).
I know it is a different thing, but have you tried doing this as a rebreather?

Use your breath to push things around, radiant breath on everyone etc etc. 
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To summarize the pieces I need:

  • Multi-attacks + Push + Pull/Slide

  • Radiant damage

  • Dragonborn

  • Fighter

  • Morninglord



What are you most willing to drop? 

And chck out Call of the Plague, it does exactly what you're asking for.  
To summarize the pieces I need:

  • Multi-attacks + Push + Pull/Slide

  • Radiant damage

  • Dragonborn

  • Fighter

  • Morninglord



What are you most willing to drop? 

And chck out Call of the Plague, it does exactly what you're asking for.  



As a note.  Dragonborn Sorc|Cleric/Fighter can do everything you are trying to do there as a rebreather.  Multiattacks, slides, pushes, radiant damage, fighter and morninglord.
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I'm not 100% sure what combo you mean. If you're just talking about refreshing Dragon Breath lots and Shoop da Whoop the whole fight, then yea. Dragon Breath is just too meh IMO. Highly inaccurate (past heroic tier at least) and competing with better minor actions leave it in bad shape outside of mass marking. Tack on the feat cost, and it's just not worth it.

EDIT: AoE != Multi-Attack. To clarify, I'm looking to push out a decent single target nova in the end.
Matyr beat me to the obvious answer, so I'll just ramble off some other stuff that's in the same family tree of forced movement.

Thunderglaive Wizard/Fighter (or Fighter|Wizard): stats don't match Dragonborn, but Genasi is really the ideal for it thanks to Elemental Empowerment, Elemental Echo, Promise of Storm ... Morninglord doesn't kick in until you get the Crown of the Briliant Sun, but that happens before you'd get the Vuln anyway.
Invoker (Headspin?): Again, stats don't match Dragonborn, but lots of push powers, plenty of daze and penalties, and high damage anyway.
Ranger: Gain push 1/round with Staggering Strike, DB at least has +Str or you can do a Revenant (DB) and go Ranged which has the advantage of being able to pick up a Forceful Bow in Paragon and just push everything.
Of course raw Fighter works perfectly fine with quite a few good powers that push on their own, and feats to add push to both OA and CC attacks.
I'd like to mention Battlemind, but once you hit 13, BB Op becomes stupidly better than anything you'd be doing with DA and Strength
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I'm not 100% sure what combo you mean. If you're just talking about refreshing Dragon Breath lots and Shoop da Whoop the whole fight, then yea. Dragon Breath is just too meh IMO. Highly inaccurate (past heroic tier at least) and competing with better minor actions leave it in bad shape outside of mass marking. Tack on the feat cost, and it's just not worth it.

EDIT: AoE != Multi-Attack. To clarify, I'm looking to push out a decent single target nova in the end.


Well, Dragon Breath builds are the highest damage builds in the game atm, and one of the highest single target because you can always attack 3x on your turn and have off-turn attacks, and hit on 2s, so your assumptions about how it works out are entirely misguided.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
The original idea I had was to take advantage of Radiant Servant + DA to deal Str+Int+Wis+vuln on each push. The hope being that I could make that happen with many attacks in a single round. Turning the build into an area blaster is possible (and I wouldn't have needed the help), but not the point. The main issue I'm having is adding a push to single-target multi-attack powers.

@Zathris: I was hoping to do it melee, but going ranged and using a Forceful Bow is probably the only way.
EDIT: A link would be nice then. I have no idea how you get +40 on DB which is poisoning my opinion of it. Hmmm, well then I stand corrected about DB at level 30.
3d6 +Cha with Powerful Breath +4+Str from Sorc +Feat +Enh from Arkhosian +Enh from Ninefold +10 from Morninglord +2 from Boon +4 from set +2 from rolling damage twice with the set ring +5 Item from Dragonborn Emperor +2 from Avatar of Io gets you to 61.5 67.5 average damage. With Thundering Breath and Concusive Breath you push twice, so Strx2 = 18 more, Lighning Soul pings one enemy for another 10 every time, could also add the feat which marks with breath and then the feat that adds Str damage to marked targets, but I'd like to avoid marking allies, it's 2 feats, and we're already well past the safe range.

The real trick is managing your resist/damage taken so you don't nuke yourself down, but you actually do damage to yourself in order to recharge - you basically can't upgrade the Wyrmtouched Amulet to the +6 version without having to drop a couple damage feats and war wizardry (unless you can get the damage to your allies up to over 80, which is very hard).
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Twin Strike + Binding Style (not Exotic Fighting Style as I posted earlier) + Lightning Weapon + Mark of Storm gives you an at-will multi-attack with two separate instances of slide on one target if you hit with both attacks. Works as soon as you get your hands on a Lightning Weapon. Add slide boosters to increase the distance you can yo-yo. 

EDIT: I just realized that every Twin Strike hit has a slide of its own thanks to MoS, so you actually have 3 slides. But you can't make the second attack if you slide the enemy away from you with the first, at least not without increasing your reach. So no yo-yo there.

EDIT2: Thundertusk Boar Strike and Sweeping Whirlwind are nice encounters powers that achieve the same effect on two enemies instead of one.

It works with Draconic Arrogance if you add Polearm Momentum to the equation (since DA also works if you prone the enemy). Fighter is required for these pieces, so that's taken care of as well. 

You can get Morninglord to work by using the aforementioned Crown of the Brilliant Sun, or by using a Radiant Weapon alongside your Lightning Weapon. 

Polearm Momentum requires some difficult stats for a Dragonborn, but you can make it work by paragon. Consider making it a Cleric hybrid so you can take Battle Cleric's Lore as well and don't have to worry about your AC.
Proning only works once per enemy though, at most tables. You're also what, Dual Wielding Javelins? That's actually kinda interesting ...
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
True, he's just going to have to accept that this combo only triggers DA once/turn. But proning is an awesome effect to add to the yo-yo. Too bad you can't make Binding Style work with Headsman's Chop (at least, I don't know of any one-handed spear/flail + axe/heavy blade). 

But since Binding Style requires a spear and a flail, you can also do something like this: hybrid Fighter|Ranger, hybrid talent for Arena Training, Flail Expertise, Dragging Flail. Now every hit with a spear or flail prones in heroic, and you don't need Polearm Momentum (and 15 Wis) anymore.
@svendj Yea I was taking BCL through hybrid or MC each time I tried. Simply getting the yo-yo isn't the problem. It's more about making the first part of it a push. To follow through with the Ranger idea, Insert whatever attack here + Mark of Storm + Lightning Weapon + Rushing Cleats is all it takes to have every attack slide the target away and then back. To avoid the MAD from Polearm Momentum, I can wield flails and pick up Dragging Flail + Flail Expertise. Now all my attacks will knock the target prone, then slide them away and back.

EDIT: ...and you beat me to the punch about the flails anyway XD.
@svendj Yea I was taking BCL through hybrid or MC each time I tried. Simply getting the yo-yo isn't the problem. It's more about making the first part of it a push. To follow through with the Ranger idea, Insert whatever attack here + Mark of Storm + Lightning Weapon + Rushing Cleats is all it takes to have every attack slide the target away and then back. To avoid the MAD from Polearm Momentum, I can wield flails and pick up Dragging Flail + Flail Expertise. Now all my attacks will knock the target prone, then slide them away and back.

EDIT: ...and you beat me to the punch about the flails anyway XD.


Didn't realize that it was OK to have the yo-yo effect on a single slide. That makes it even easier. 

And really, you don't need the push effect if you can prone. Draconic Arrogance will trigger just the same, just not more than once. Is that really so important?

EDIT: if so, you can use Staggering Strike for a once/round push vs your Quarry. 

 Hmmm, well then I stand corrected about DB at level 30.



Since I end up being the spokesperson for the build a lot (which is nice, considering Im really lazy when it comes to actually stating out the build in threads and most time just PM people and answer questiona bout it) I' slightly obligated to say something here.

The DB build isn't just good at 30.  It is great throughout.  In heroic you are a sorcerer who has a minor action attack every round (minor actions being easily wasted by heroic sorcs), in paragon it goes from being a nice addon to a deadly addon.  The size gets much bigger and it starts getting extremely accurate, under almost all circumstances being the most accurate attack you can get on a sorc. (Stat + Enhancement + Psudeoexpertise + Built in Scaling + Halflevel)  As soon as the damage becomes negligible you are doing everything a sorc does, and DBing with every action you can get that isn't a standard action.

Edit: Also "The build" is a bit misleading.  As you can build it as a defender (Fighter|Sorc/Assassin), DPR King (Master of Moments/Revenant/minor action shenanigans) and it even works really well as a morninglord (Getting radiant through your helm so you never give your allies radiant vuln). 
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I was more responding to the claim that DB builds are the most damaging in the game. Once you hit epic and can drop zones that aren't limited to 1/turn, yes the damage gets silly (and can be taken to infinity).  I'm glad you put me onto DB as a possibility. Not what I had intended, but could end up with the same effect.
I was more responding to the claim that DB builds are the most damaging in the game. Once you hit epic and can drop zones that aren't limited to 1/turn, yes the damage gets silly (and can be taken to infinity).  I'm glad you put me onto DB as a possibility. Not what I had intended, but could end up with the same effect.



The bigger thing is that you can breath 11 times in the same turn with the DPR king build at +42 v reflex, rolling twice for damage and killing everything in a 7x7 block.  But yes, the zones are cool too.
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lolwut? The build on DPR Kings uses 6 (7 after milestone) DB per turn and has about 90% of its damage come from an unlimited zone. Check it out! Please link what you're talking about.
Please do not assume however that a DM who knows what he is doing will accept a DPR kings build at his table. I think you're better off seeing that as Theoretical Optimisation.
lolwut? The build on DPR Kings uses 6 (7 after milestone) DB per turn and has about 90% of it's damage come from an unlimited zone. Check it out! Please link what you're talking about.



I was referring to my own DPR King entry.  It was a Revenant build that picked Dborn and did revenant cheese for extra minor actions.

it got a total of 11 minor actions on AP turn.

Standard, Move, Minor, AP (Free), Standard, Move, Minor = 7 with no cheese for one turn with MoM.  Then add on Rev cheese and items (Ring of Free time etc).  Also talking about nova not dpr, so I should have said the nova build.  But I would never bring that to table. 
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lolwut? The build on DPR Kings uses 6 (7 after milestone) DB per turn and has about 90% of its damage come from an unlimited zone. Check it out! Please link what you're talking about.


That build doesn't work as described because the author didn't read the power that's being used to generate Vuln. Waiting until turn 3 in order to deal nigh-infinite damage may as well have a KPR of 0. Non-infinite at level 30 that uses an incorrect reading of a power and an obvious non-RAI damage zone? Yeah, don't link that crap.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
The vuln makes it better, but the zone works without it. Beyond that, I was making fun of the claim that DB was the best in the game (your claim at that). The build linked is the ONLY one on the DPR Kings list that is even in the top 5 (the next DB build is #7 at lvl 30).
The vuln makes it better, but the zone works without it. Beyond that, I was making fun of the claim that DB was the best in the game (your claim at that). The build linked is the ONLY one on the DPR Kings list that is even in the top 5 (the next DB build is #7 at lvl 30).



Play with a properly piloted breather just once.  Do it in paragon preferably.  See if you still think it isn't so strong.
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lolwut? The build on DPR Kings uses 6 (7 after milestone) DB per turn and has about 90% of its damage come from an unlimited zone. Check it out! Please link what you're talking about.


That build doesn't work as described because the author didn't read the power that's being used to generate Vuln. Waiting until turn 3 in order to deal nigh-infinite damage may as well have a KPR of 0. Non-infinite at level 30 that uses an incorrect reading of a power and an obvious non-RAI damage zone? Yeah, don't link that crap.

Huh? I don't think you're reading it right... what's wrong with Doom of Chaos (not that it's vital to the concept anyway)? And the damage on turn 1 is already enough to kill most things, but then it takes till turn 2 (not turn 3) to reach 100%. Considering the turn 1 damage is higher than 99% of other builds, I don't think this is a problem.

There are certainly some issues to overcome if you wanted to use it in practical play, but it should never be used in practical play anyway. And the specific objections you raised are just incorrect.

The vuln makes it better, but the zone works without it. Beyond that, I was making fun of the claim that DB was the best in the game (your claim at that). The build linked is the ONLY one on the DPR Kings list that is even in the top 5 (the next DB build is #7 at lvl 30).

DPR Kings doesn't count for much in terms of practical application, it's much more for theoretical optimization, *especially* if you're looking at the level 30 builds, many of which are just plain unplayable before then. So don't use it as the final word in what is/isn't strong.

Also, going by the number of builds listed in DPR Kings introduces all kinds of biases so that it's reaaaaaally not a good measure for how effective something is.
Actually, it's ∞% lower than the top builds, but Borg won't list anything that deals infinite or indeterminable non-infinite damage, even if they're done without such outright RAI violations as non-turn-capped zones.

I'll admit Doom of Chaos works on turn 2 if you're claiming that you intentionally miss to gain the effect but not the ongoing, but I am under the assumption that Borg doesn't allow that tactic unless you have a legitimate claim to being able to (ie. it's a Wis-based attack on a Sorc). Otherwise, your turn 1 you probably hit, their turn 1 they gain vuln 10 psychic at the start and make a saving throw vs ongoing, your turn 2 -------, their turn 2 they gain vuln 10 psychic if they failed their saving throw otherwise they gain vuln 10 fire, your turn 3 if they are now vuln fire they get blown uplol otherwise you keep sitting on your thumbs only doing 90 DPR or whatever. Still a powerful build, still based on 2 assumptions that I've never seen in effect.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
True, I meant to mention that, there are a few infinite damage builds out there still.

My build has a CHA of 10 at level 30. So yeah, the idea is that you are deliberately missing (and I even make a note that there are Dice of Auspicious Fortune included specifically to ensure the first attack doesn't get a natural 20).

Also, you seem to be missing how minor Doom of Chaos is anyway. It causes them to take twice as much damage as they otherwise would; so without it, the build is at 7.3 KPR. Still kills everything immediately.

If you look at the spreadsheet that has the damage calcs, you will notice that the *round 1* DPR is just under 2000. If we remove Doom of Chaos, then it's just under 1000, and this can be done at-will, no setup, to everything in a 5x5 box. The other stuff (vulnerability and assuming they're in the same spot each round) just takes it from 1000 DPR to 4500 DPR, which is a large difference, but they are both stupidly big numbers (and it's AoE!).
@ TWTN Your damage calcs have 4*Number of zones built into the damage. If instead you wrote your normal damage as 52+3*Zone dmg (1 tap on each of your turns, and 1 on theirs) then you have a 6(7) attack build that does ~110 damage per attack. Remove the Revanant cheese and it's only 3(4) attacks. I'm not trying to downplay your build, just use it as an example of clearly broken mechanics making another mechanic seem more powerful than it is.

@martyr That's exactly what I intend to do, but I'll do it when I can just start at paragon.

I ended up with a Dragonborn Barb|Cleric MC Fighter/Morninglord/Radiant One for this campaign. Should have a fun daily nova and be pretty self suficient as well as bring the radiant vuln for everyone to dip into. Since I said in the OP that this was actually going to be played I didn't want it to be too ridiculous. A bit of a one-trick pony that does good enough damage and is self sufficient.
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