Spiked Chain Avenger

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Hey guys, I was messing around with the builder and made something that I think could be pretty decent. 

Frost Spiked Chain +2 
Bloodthread Cloth +2
Amulet of Protection

Feats:

Power of Skill
Spiked Chain Training
Spiked Chain Expertise
Wintertouched
Light Blade Expertise (Constant +2 damage bonus)
Unarmored Agility
Lasting Frost
Painful Oath

Powers:

Overwhelming Strike (Melee basic)
Bond of Pursuit
 Angelic Alacrity
Sequestering Strike
Slayer's Gambit
Aspect of Might (+2 damage + 2 speed)
Nine Souls of Wrath (Causes vunerability to all, allowing Painful Oath and Lasting Frost to hit considerably harder)
Blade of Repulsion 
Chain Ward (Threatening reach)
Silver Shadow
River of Life
Relentless Fervor


Make it a HE with Twinstrike and you have a good start .

Or, if you really want to go the MBA route, just charge-kit the guy and be done with it. 
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Make it a HE with Twinstrike and you have a good start .

Or, if you really want to go the MBA route, just charge-kit the guy and be done with it. 



Might just be me...... But is trading the +1 Dex mod worth it for an encounter Twinstrike?
Make it a HE with Twinstrike and you have a good start .

Or, if you really want to go the MBA route, just charge-kit the guy and be done with it. 



Might just be me...... But is trading the +1 Dex mod worth it for an encounter Twinstrike?



You make it At-Will with a feat.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
This I was not aware of. Thanks.

Edit: Hit a minor snag though.... My Avenger's strength score is basically non-existant for use with twin-strike. Can you think of any way to swap the hit mod to Wisdom? 
Adept Dilettante feat will allow you to use Wisdom in place of Strength.

What happened to my post count? It seems the more I post, the more it drops. Is that how it's supposed to work?

Adept Dilettante feat will allow you to use Wisdom in place of Strength.


That won't work because your multi-class is devoted to Spiked Chain Training. Unless he can find another way this build will need to focus on Str/Wis to make use of Twin Strike. He will get less on riders or need to find, if there is one, a non-secondary dependant censure.
Go for the stat line of 17/10+2/13/10/15+2/8. Maybe Censure of Unity and fight in group formation.
Here is a really crappy build with almost everything from your list. Customizable as you see fit. Items/powers/feats and such. Just trying to get a mock up. 
[sblockFrosty]

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Frosty, level 12
Half-Elf, Avenger, Relentless Slayer
Build: Pursuing Avenger
Avenger's Censure Option: Censure of Pursuit
Half-Elf Power Selection Option: Dilettante
Associate: Trained Young Owlbear
Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)
Theme: Fey Beast Tamer

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 20, CON 13, DEX 14, INT 11, WIS 20, CHA 9

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 17, CON 10, DEX 13, INT 10, WIS 15, CHA 8


AC: 23 Fort: 22 Ref: 19 Will: 22
HP: 100 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 25

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +13, Perception +16, Religion +11, Stealth +13

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +6, Athletics +11, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +7, Dungeoneering +11, Endurance +7, Heal +11, History +6, Insight +13, Intimidate +5, Nature +11, Streetwise +5, Thievery +8

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Avenger Feature: Abjure Undead
Avenger Feature: Divine Guidance
Avenger Feature: Oath of Enmity
Feat Utility: Chain Ward
Ranger Attack 1: Twin Strike
Avenger Attack 1: Overwhelming Strike
Avenger Attack 1: Bond of Pursuit
Avenger Attack 1: Angelic Alacrity
Avenger Attack 1: Aspect of Might
Avenger Utility 2: Silver Shadow
Avenger Attack 3: Sequestering Strike
Avenger Attack 5: Nine Souls of Wrath
Avenger Attack 7: Inexorable Pursuit
Avenger Attack 9: Blade of Repulsion
Avenger Utility 10: River of Life
Relentless Slayer Attack 11: Slayer's Gambit
Relentless Slayer Utility 12: Relentless Fervor

FEATS
Level 1: Spiked Chain Training
Level 2: Avenging Resolution
Level 4: Unarmored Agility
Level 6: Light Blade Expertise
Level 8: Silvery Glow
Level 10: Spiked Chain Expert
Level 11: Versatile Master
Level 12: Lasting Frost

ITEMS
Frost Spiked chain +3 x1
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1
Gloves of Ice (paragon tier) x1
Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (paragon tier)
====== End ======



[/sblock]
I would pick up Cahulaks instead of Spiked Chain. That allows the build to go Dex/Wis, get Adept Dilettante, and get Versatile Master. And Cahulaks are also a reach weapon if I understand why the build has to have a reach option.

Bonus is that Cahulaks are a throwable weapon for Twin Strike.
I would pick up Cahulaks instead of Spiked Chain. That allows the build to go Dex/Wis, get Adept Dilettante, and get Versatile Master. And Cahulaks are also a reach weapon if I understand why the build has to have a reach option.

Bonus is that Cahulaks are a throwable weapon for Twin Strike.


The only thing i was puzzling out for the spiked chain was for relentless fervor and the spiked chain expert power swap. I don't really know as it's not really my idea i was just seeing what i could come up with.
 
Yup, Half-elf with Cahulaks is the way to go for this build. Doesn't cost the multiclass, and Flail Expertise/Power of Skill/Overwhelming Strike works quite nicely for off-action basic attacks/granted attacks.
I was wondering about the reach, as oath requires you to be adjacent.
If going the Twin Strike route why not go for a more Crit fishing bent also. Fey Beast and Censure of Unity.
You need MC Spiked Chain if you want to use Chain Ward. Otherwise, this build is just a vanilla HE twinstrike avenger that happens to use flails.
I was wondering about the reach, as oath requires you to be adjacent.



It's definitely going to require some good placement on my part. The idea with Relentless Fervor + Reach is that you are adjacent to the OoE and one square away from the secondary target. 
You could just suck it up and take Traveler's Harlequin. That's what I ended up resorting to when I tried the same concept.
Why are you wanting to use the Spiked Chain, exactly?  You're not getting anything from the flail part, and you're not using it for its status as a double weapon, so the only thing left is the reach and Avenging Resolution to fix the damage.  But reach is a trap on Avengers, because it means you don't get Oath rerolls.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I made a couple of changes. 

- Dropped the Spiked chain in favor of the Kusari Gama. This freed up some feat choices and I took Adept Dilittante and Flail Expertise (works great with OS). 

- Instead of Chain Ward I was able to take Aspect of Majesty for the +1 reach. 3 reach might seem gimmicky, but hey.... Why not. 
I made a couple of changes. 

- Dropped the Spiked chain in favor of the Kusari Gama. This freed up some feat choices and I took Adept Dilittante and Flail Expertise (works great with OS). 

- Instead of Chain Ward I was able to take Aspect of Majesty for the +1 reach. 3 reach might seem gimmicky, but hey.... Why not. 


No Oath rerolls is why not...
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Why are you wanting to use the Spiked Chain, exactly?  You're not getting anything from the flail part, and you're not using it for its status as a double weapon, so the only thing left is the reach and Avenging Resolution to fix the damage.  But reach is a trap on Avengers, because it means you don't get Oath rerolls.



I plan on maintaining my distance from opponents other than my Oath. It's also going to allow me to utilize my Relentless Fervor PP feature to crit fish (double re-rolls) on TS and get a free OS against another creature within range. Also, with the Flail Expertise I can knock people prone rather than sliding which works great considering I can't slide them when I have reach, but I still get the shift. 
For those just joining us, he's optimizing his character almost entirely around the Daily utility from Relentless Slayer PP, regardless of how horrificly sub-optimal it's making him the other 3/4 of the day.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Er....ooookay....

Color me as not convinced this will work well.

If you insist on doing this, then get Avenging Resolution.  You needs it.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
For those just joining us, he's optimizing his character almost entirely around the Daily utility from Relentless Slayer PP, regardless of how horrificly sub-optimal it's making him the other 3/4 of the day.



Not really sure where you get this from. I can still do everything this character is meant to do in any encounter, I just won't have a free action MBA during all of them. I can still knock things prone, I still get my re-rolls, I can still TS, I still get my high mobility, and I still get my Painful Oath. Just because I have the reach doesn't mean I'm going to always use it.... 
Except you're using up a ton of character resources (feats, multiclass) to use half of the properties of an already mediocre weapon.

You are sacrificing a huge amount to build around one use of a daily power, when the ability to use that daily power even after you activate it is situational.

For comparison, I can also knock things prone, still get my rerolls, still get high mobility, and still get Painful Oath by going with a Gouge.  The only thing is no TS, but I get to use the Charge package instead.  I'll probably be doing at least double the damage you are, if not more.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Except you're using up a ton of character resources (feats, multiclass) to use half of the properties of an already mediocre weapon.

You are sacrificing a huge amount to build around one use of a daily power, when the ability to use that daily power even after you activate it is situational.

For comparison, I can also knock things prone, still get my rerolls, still get high mobility, and still get Painful Oath by going with a Gouge.  The only thing is no TS, but I get to use the Charge package instead.  I'll probably be doing at least double the damage you are, if not more.



I'm kind of building for Crit Fishing. 4 rolls isn't anything to sneeze at. What PP would you be taking with your Avenger with the charge package?
Cahulaks.  That is your weapon.  Anything else doesn't work if you want to stick with flails.

Twin strike = melee or RANGED

Take distant vengence so now you can get double rolls on ranged attacks.  Cahulaks are heavy thrown.  And they are flails, have reach, and is a double weapon.  Everything you need.

TBH, gouge is the best weapon but you can give up on twin strike and take other powers such as eldritch strike, white lotus riposte, white lotus master riposte.  You hit them, if they hit you, you do static mod damage to them and then you get to attack them again.

And I do not know where you get the idea that you can't slide from reach.  If you can hit them with a melee attack that slides, you can prone or slide when you hit them.  There are a few builds that use sliding from reach as action denial such as slide them 3 or 4 squares away and leave them prone and slowed. 
Ardent Champion, most likely, which actually has features that give a benefit to going for critfishing.

I mean, don't get me wrong.  The str-based critfisher build can be great, but there's better ways of doing even that then trying to bank on Relentless Fervor and having enough things in reach for it to matter (and having that positive benefit outweighed by being significantly worse in all the fights where you're not using it).
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Cahulaks.  That is your weapon.  Anything else doesn't work if you want to stick with flails.

Twin strike = melee or RANGED

Take distant vengence


Distant Vengeance doesn't work with Twin Strike.  RBA only.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
If you're going to use the spiked chain, fine, but skip the spiked chain training and go fighter instead. Capitalize on the slide/prone effects.
If crit fishing I feel your resources could be better spent. 
Cahulaks.  That is your weapon.  Anything else doesn't work if you want to stick with flails.

Twin strike = melee or RANGED

Take distant vengence


Distant Vengeance doesn't work with Twin Strike.  RBA only.



True, missed that part.  But there are RBAs he could poach instead of twin strike such as divine bolts, eldritch blast, or most of the seeker at wills.  But the point still remains that reach and oath do not mix.  He should either go melee or ranged, not both.
But the point still remains that reach and oath do not mix. 

And that is my only point.  Reach is a trap option for Avengers, full stop.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
But the point still remains that reach and oath do not mix. 

And that is my only point.  Reach is a trap option for Avengers, full stop.



In complete agreement with you. 
Your build is not as great as you thought.

There are lots of suggestions but not a lot of listening.

Using too many feats and items to do one trick once a day is making your build average.
Hang on everyone.  I know it is fun to just jump on the guy, but one thing that needs to be taken into account here is that he isn't saying this:

"This is my build, I do this and it is good"

What me should be saying (and what he means) is this:

"Rebuilding my avenger, looking for powers that look interesting and trying to build from there."

How this thread started was as his idea dump to just add a bunch of crap til it looked interesting, but it never really got there.

One of the things that needs to be discussed for a second here is how bad the Utility power you are building around is.

Lets compare it, for a second, to the F16 of Draeven Maruader.  Both are situational MBAs.  One of them helps you finish off the target (your job as striker) one of them does not.  One of them is supported by the paragon path (the expanded crit range) and one is not.  Now they are different things (U12=/= F16) but they are both going to be options for your extra MBA.

Now if you want a no-action MBA (cause that utility does that) look at Reaper's Axe + anything.  Shift 1 MBA as a no-action.  Its on your weapon so you can just throw it on and go a-murdering with it.  No feat investment, no shenanigans just use it to kill people (My Barb|Figther/Avenger is using it right now with DM PP) and be happy.

The thing is, OP, there are a lot of assumptions made about what you know or should be able to reasonably look up before being able to hold an argument about a particular build and I don't think you know them yet.  This isn't a slight against you, you are new.  Its a little knee-jerky for people to assume you to know it, but try to take into your responses a good look at what is being suggested rather than dismissing them if it doesn't work with your original idea. Because you are new, and your original idea might be great from a new persons perspective (hell it might be great overall you just can't justify it as well), but it very well might be a steaming turd of random powers.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
I'm painfully aware after posting here how little I actually do know. ;)

So at this point I'm considering abolishing reach and switching my PP (the only reason I was going to use reach). What would you guys suggest for a weapon for a dual wield crit fisher? Or should I really not be doing a crit fisher? The first things come to mind is dualwielding vicious high crit weapons, and getting expanded crit from my PP.

I can work from there of course on powers and what not.  
Critfishing works, but (especially pre-epic) it works as an add-on to one of the other two strategies, Charging and Multi-attacking. Those are what let you throw enough dice for critfishing to be effective to begin with.



Aside from TS I don't have anything else. Hybrid doesnt' work because I can't oath rolls for Ranger powers and I'd have to invest in two ability scores. 
Critfishing works, but (especially pre-epic) it works as an add-on to one of the other two strategies, Charging and Multi-attacking. Those are what let you throw enough dice for critfishing to be effective to begin with.



Aside from TS I don't have anything else. Hybrid doesnt' work because I can't oath rolls for Ranger powers and I'd have to invest in two ability scores. 



Take a look at Erachima's Mia build to see what you can do.
Theres the feat to based Twin Strike off of Wisdom
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Theres the feat to based Twin Strike off of Wisdom



Not actually what I was referring too. I meant powers aside from TS... I already have that feat. 
As a note after heroic Viscious is a very tame crit effect compared to some of them.  Personally I'm a fan of weilding a Reaper's Axe in one hand and a... I forget the name of the MBA on crit one (Rending I think).  I'm not sure how well it works with a crit fishing avenger, but it could be very good.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
As a note after heroic Viscious is a very tame crit effect compared to some of them.  Personally I'm a fan of weilding a Reaper's Axe in one hand and a... I forget the name of the MBA on crit one (Rending I think).  I'm not sure how well it works with a crit fishing avenger, but it could be very good.


Experts way in, but maybe try to fit into the build Two-weapon Fighting/Two-Weapon Opening/Heavy Blade Opportunity and Avenging Resolution with Reaper's Axe Khopeshes. The later two may not be as useful or even feasible to fit into the build. That is going to be stretching the stat's super thin.