Double Move Question.

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So we are going back and forth about the Scion of Arkosia lvl 12 ability At-will Dragon Wings (Move Action: Effect: you fly a number of squares equal to your speed. You must land at the end of this movement)between the DM and few players regarding its use in Double Move.  Characters Speed is 6.

One Side: Although a double move is one speed, it is still two actions; so the player must land in between moves...it lands twice once at 6 and again at 12. Gaining the other benifit of a double move (landing in an allies square). 
 
Second Side: Based on the One Speed ruling: When you double move, add the speeds of the two move action together and move. Meaning add the speeds together and then move 12 only having to land once at the end on the 12th square. 

I was just wondering what the consensus was out here...If anything has changed since the post I found from 3 years ago.  

What would you rule in your game? 

Thanks

Vin~





I found this doing a search....but it answers that it could be interpreted both ways. 
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...


I believe by RAW it is move, land, move.  In game I would allow move move land.

Edit: I was incorrect, a closer look at the entry on Double Movement clears that up. 
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Side One since Dragon Wings says you must land at the end of this movement and that Double Move is still two moves even if the speed is combined.

  RAI would seem to allow a single 12' flight. Double Move already explicitly lifts certain common limitations on the basis that you aren't actually stopping at the end of the first move action, and the Jump action (under Athletics) further supports this; deciding that flight DOES require you to land in the middle of a double move would go against those precedents.
Actually, i believe Side Two is in fact RAW because its still a single movement. 

So when you Double Move with Dragon Wings, you fly your speed x2 as a single movement using two move actions.
Actually, rereading the Double Move section, specifically Combined Speed entry makes me realize I was wrong.  There isn't an "end point" between the two moves.  Interesting.
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I originally confused too, the only thing that ends is the move action, not the movement, as noted in Occupied Squares.
I appecriate the reposnses. It appears that it could still be interepted eitherway! silly game!

Vin~
I appecriate the reposnses. It appears that it could still be interepted eitherway! silly game! 

Vin~ 



Nope, it is pretty clear that it is only the one way.  Just not the way I thought it was.  Side 2 is correct.
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So many responses, so little reading of the double move rules.

Same move action twice explicitly lists the move actions you can use a double-move with. Run, Walk, Crawl, Shift. That's it. RAI might make an allowance for allowing other types of move actions/powers, but RAW doesn't. The double move rules don't apply to powers or other types of movement.
I thought they were exemples :P
Neither RAW nor RAI should it be allowed. As Alcestis already stated, double moving only works with a limited set of move actions so by RAW it doesn't work with Dragon Wings. It might be that RAI was that double moving could be used with certain move action powers as well but was left out due to problems with wording (it can't work with all move actions, obviously, but only with those actually involving movement and not even with all of those).

Anyway, Dragon Wings require landing between short spurts of flight as you're not a very good flier, and using a double move to move twice your speed without landing in between would be very much like clearing a 8 square chasm by double moving and taking two 4 square leaps...
> Same move action twice explicitly lists the move actions you can use a double-move with.
> Run, Walk, Crawl, Shift. That's it.

  Ahem.

  From the glossary entry for Walk:

  "The walk action can use special movement modes such as climbing, flying, and swimming."

> Same move action twice explicitly lists the move actions you can use a double-move with.
> Run, Walk, Crawl, Shift. That's it.

  Ahem.

  From the glossary entry for Walk:

  "The walk action can use special movement modes such as climbing, flying, and swimming."




Yes, that would be using athletics, a swim speed, a fly speed or similar. Dragon Wings doesn't grant you a special movement mode and you don't use the walk action to fly by means of Dragon Wings, you use the Dragon Wings power.
It's worth noting, for the purposes of rulings, that you can explicitly use double move to jump up to twice your speed without landing in the middle, IIRC (as long as you can make lots of athletics of course)...
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> Same move action twice explicitly lists the move actions you can use a double-move with.
> Run, Walk, Crawl, Shift. That's it.

  Ahem.

  From the glossary entry for Walk:

  "The walk action can use special movement modes such as climbing, flying, and swimming."




Yes, that would be using athletics, a swim speed, a fly speed or similar. Dragon Wings doesn't grant you a special movement mode and you don't use the walk action to fly by means of Dragon Wings, you use the Dragon Wings power.


No to athletics climbing, yes to climb speed.  Alternate movement modes can be doublemoved with, because you're not using "fly" you're using "walk/run/crawl/shift" and with your alternate movement mode.

What Neutronium Dragon quoted is not incorrect.  Run, Walk, Crawl, Shift are the only actions allowable for double move.  What movement mode you're using for that action is completely up to you, but the action doesn't change just because you didn't use standard ground movement.
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> Same move action twice explicitly lists the move actions you can use a double-move with.
> Run, Walk, Crawl, Shift. That's it.

  Ahem.

  From the glossary entry for Walk:

  "The walk action can use special movement modes such as climbing, flying, and swimming."


Using a special movement mode is still using the Walk action, you just aren't using it for walking. So... no, no ahem.
Or using the Run action, or the Shift action, or the Crawl action.

Special movement modes aren't limited to Walk.
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So we are going back and forth about the Scion of Arkosia lvl 12 ability At-will Dragon Wings (Move Action: Effect: you fly a number of squares equal to your speed. You must land at the end of this movement)
...
What would you rule in your game?

Based on the highlighted text, I would rule that the writer's intent was not to combine movements. However, I might also use DMG p.42 to justify breaking that ruling for cool stunts (maybe with an athletics roll).

Could double move be used with Ghost of the Rooftops, then, to long jump twice your speed?
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies." -The Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks
Hrm.

Upon further review, I'm actually going to disagree with Alcestis's claim that the specified move actions are an exclusive list.  Before the dash, the rule is:

Same Move Action Twice: To take a double move, a creature must take the same move action twice in a row on the same turn

If you wanted to use an at-will move action power, as long as it was the same one twice it would meet the qualification for double move.  By my reading, all that matters is that it is the same move action, and that you're using it twice.  It doesn't even have to be at-will.  If it were a daily usage, that you got two of somehow, then that would also be acceptable.

I believe that this falls clearly into the category of "examples aren't rules."  If it had actually said "the only move actions you can use are run walk crawl shift" then sure, but what it says is "Same Move Action Twice" which is quite open-ended.

I just don't see the text indicating the exclusivity of the list.  Particularly when the term double move has a specific definition, stated rather clearly:

"Taking the same move action twice in a row is called taking a double move."

Even if we were to believe that the later list is exclusive, "taking the move action 'use power Ghost on the Rooftops' twice in a row" would also be "called taking a double move" by this definition.  There's literally no other way to interpret that.
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Hrm.
Even if we were to believe that the later list is exclusive, "taking the move action 'use power Ghost on the Rooftops' twice in a row" would also be "called taking a double move" by this definition.  There's literally no other way to interpret that.



Ghost on the Rooftops states: Special: can only be used once per round. So you would not be able to double move with that power. 

Now back to OP Laughing

Do you have to Land at 6 and then again at 12 for the double move. 

Or

Do you move 12 and then land

 
Er, well, fine.  Special line removes it as an example.  But that's not the point!

Move 12 then land, in my opinion, because it says 'fly your speed.'  Your speed for the double move is 12, not 6.
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it says 'fly your speed.'  Your speed for the double move is 12, not 6.

Double move doesn't double your 'speed' stat(s): (PHB p.284) "When you double move, add the speeds of the two move actions together and then move".  That interpretation seems like it could break some powers and abilities that are based on speed...

it says 'fly your speed.'  Your speed for the double move is 12, not 6.

Double move doesn't double your 'speed': (PHB p.284) "When you double move, add the speeds of the two move actions together and then move".  That interpretation seems like it could break some powers and abilities that are based on speed...



It works for powers the same as it does for the Walk action:

Walk
         Action: Move action.
         Movement: The creature moves up to its speed.

Nearly every power in the game that causes movement based on speed has the same structure as the Walk action.  If those don't work, then Walk is broken as well.

If you think it doesn't double your 'speed' in the above example, then you shouldn't think it does it here either.  But it does do that, so your thinking is incorrect.


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Problem with that is the part you're quoting Mand. It says "Take the same Move action" twice." Which is not to say you a use a move action to take the same action twice, but you are literally doing the same Move Action twice. Move Actions have a list of what they are (RC 203). The term is just being overloaded, as usual. The list after the dash is just relisting the default move actions as a reminder, since it appeared earlier in the movement rules.
Derh.  Yeah, forgot the 1/turn limit.  Still, it's a long jump.  So you're saying I couldn't make a jump with Athletics, and use a double move to continue the jump with Ghost, because it would be combining a walk action with a power, despite the fact I'm doing the same thing with both?
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That interpretation seems like it could break some powers and abilities that are based on speed...

Or the oppoosite, break ones that don't rely on speed. By strict RAW Double Shift does nothing since the Shift action has no speed, its a movement of 1 square. 

Problem with that is the part you're quoting Mand. It says "Take the same Move action" twice." Which is not to say you a use a move action to take the same action twice, but you are literally doing the same Move Action twice. Move Actions have a list of what they are (RC 203). The term is just being overloaded, as usual. The list after the dash is just relisting the default move actions as a reminder, since it appeared earlier in the movement rules.


Are you really saying that using a power that requires a move action is not a move action?
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Double moving doesn't really double your speed anyway, as you use two actions to move twice as far as you could do with one action alone...i.e. you have the same speed as before.

The idea with the double move, as far as I can tell, is to create a sense of fluid movement (if you walk 12 squares you don't walk 6 squares, stop, and then continue walking, but rather you move 12 squares continually) and to avoid the somewhat odd situation where you can have a small corridor with ten allies spread out without hindering your movement across the corridor in the slightest but one single ally exactly 6 squares forward will block you. Nothing with the double move, as presented, hints anything about being about removing limits given by the movement itself.

Given that, I would let a player double move with, say, Deft Diver or Nimble Climber, but not with, say, Fire Stride, Dragon Wings, or Shadow Stride.
Double moving doesn't really double your speed anyway


Yes it does.  Read the text.

Your example of an ally 6 squares ahead blocking you is completely wrong.  Again, read the text.
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Double moving doesn't really double your speed anyway


Yes it does.  Read the text.

Your example of an ally 6 squares ahead blocking you is completely wrong.  Again, read the text.



It says to add the speeds of the two move actions to determine how far you can move. It doesn't say to double your speed to determine your new speed. Double moving doesn't change your speed any more than Run does. It simply reinforces the concept of fluid movement. It should be clear that "the speeds of the move actions" refer to your movement allowance for a given move action, not your actual speed. Otherwise, how far would you move with a double shift or a double run, respectively?

My example was referring to what would happen should you NOT be able to use double moving while walking (given a speed 6). An ally 6 squares ahead WOULD block your progress through the corridor as you would have to stop one square short while having allies in all other squares except 6 and 12 would do nothing to hinder you.

Anyway, RAW ain't entirely clear on whether the listed move actions are the only ones usable ones for a double move (and I can't compare with Rules Compendium as it unavailable to me for the momemnt) or simply examples of usable move actions (the other three generic ones, Escape, Stand Up, and Squeeze having no particular benefit from a double move). If the list isn't exhaustive, Dragon Wings should be able to get you twice your speed before landing, rather than forcing you to land in the middle.
it says 'fly your speed.'  Your speed for the double move is 12, not 6.

Double move doesn't double your 'speed' stat(s): (PHB p.284) "When you double move, add the speeds of the two move actions together and then move".  That interpretation seems like it could break some powers and abilities that are based on speed...



Dragon Wings Scion of Arkhosia Utility 12
Fully formed dragon wings protrude from your back, giving you the ability to fly.
At-Will
Move Action Personal
Effect: You fly a number of squares equal to your speed. You must land at the end of this movement.

I think I agree with Mvincent.   "...fly a number of squares equal to your speed (which is set)...must land at the end of this movement."  So in order to "run" with this At Will, you fly, land, fly, land.


DETERMINING SPEED
Determine your speed as follows:
✦ Start with your race’s speed.
✦ Take your armor’s speed penalty, if applicable.
✦ Add any bonuses that apply.


DOUBLE MOVE
✦ Same Move Action: To double move, you have to take the same move action twice in a row on the same turn.
✦ One Speed: When you double move, add the speeds of the two move actions together and then move.
✦ Occupied Squares: When you double move, your first move action can end in an ally’s space, because you’re not stopping. Your second move action can’t end in an ally’s space, as normal.


Game mechanic wise, it prevents Arkhosia to use this "flight" to fly vertical or horizontal 2x speed w/out landing in between.  Perhaps that was the intent.  Kinda bummer if there is a firey chasm Arkhosia want to fly over. 


Although "One Speed" definition may mean when using the At Will  to "run", your speed is double.  Perhaps "Add any bonuses that apply" may mean exactly that bonus, and "Same Move Action" means you are not doing 2x 1 Move action (which requires you to land), but "Double Move" itself is the 1 move action, in which case flying 2xspeed and landing makes sense, but then Occupied Square description seem to imply it's two move action without stopping.  

Individual DM make the call!  

Personally I would allow it at 16th level since they get overland flight of 12 w/out requirement to land, but pre 16, they got to land in between the double move.
 

Thanks everyone for all the responses! Here is what I got back from Customer Service:

Thanks for writing in. In this case, the interaction between that power and the rules for Double Move are not explicitly clear, so ultimately it is up to the DM to decide whether the character would have to land in between the two parts of the double move. I apologize that we do not have a more definite answer for you on this matter. I hope this information helps! If you have further questions or concerns, please feel free to contact us again.


Thanks again!

Vin~ 
It should be noted that Customer Service answers are awful, and not to be trusted.  Our answers are better.
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It should be noted that Customer Service answers are awful, and not to be trusted.  Our answers are better.



That should be a sticky...
Are you really saying that using a power that requires a move action is not a move action?

I am really saying that, in the movement section of the rules, Move Actions are defined as Shift, Walk, Run, Crawl, in an iterative list, two pages before the double-move rules, which call out that you can use a given Move Action twice and then re-iterates that exact same list as options to use two of. Context matters, if you are reading a section of the rules that used a term a certain way, it is reasonable to assume the term was intended to be read that way for the section of the rules. There are actually quite a few examples in the RC of that.

But really, the double-move rules are pretty clear. It says two walks, two shifts, two crawls, or two runs. That isn't an open-ended list.
If using a power that requires spending a move action is not a Move Action, what is it?  Doesn't this logic conflict with the "use a power as a standard action" rulings that other elements use?
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If using a power that requires spending a move action is not a Move Action, what is it?  Doesn't this logic conflict with the "use a power as a standard action" rulings that other elements use?

You used a move action to use a power that requires you to use a move action, but you didn't take a Move Action. Probably should be. The list under double-move is iterative, it lists the options, with no possibility of their being additional options. It is pretty clear that was the intent, because two pages earlier those exact actions are listed as the default move actions. That's all.

No, not especially. If you took the Walk move action as a Standard, it wouldn't change that you took the Walk move action.
I'm not clear at all where you get the idea that it's an exclusive list.  Isn't "Use a Power" in the general list of 'actions' ?

PHB 292:

Use a Power:  Action Varies

Compare with:

Shift:  Move Action


Same syntax, same presentation.  You mentioned context - here is the context.
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I'm not clear at all where you get the idea that it's an exclusive list.  Isn't "Use a Power" in the general list of 'actions' ?

PHB 292:

Use a Power:  Action Varies

Compare with:

Shift:  Move Action


Same syntax, same presentation.  You mentioned context - here is the context.

Try looking at the RC. Literally two pages earlier it lists the Move Actions, by that name, and two pages later it says "You can take two move actions - here is the exact same list of those actions with the word "two" before each one." That was the context I was refering to.
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