Another Question: Quickened Spell Timing

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Hello again,

Your great answers to my previous question have inspired another one - hope you don't mind. Here's a tactic that occurred to me that I'd like to run by you:

Whereas: If I ready an action to counterspell, I have time to identify the opponent's spell and cast one of my own, i.e. a counterspell. Also, a readied action is resolved before the action that triggered it;

Therefore: Could I ready an action to, in response to enemy spellcasting, identify their spell and cast Spell Immunity [Enemy Spell]? If not, what about Quickened Spell Immunity?

Obviously it would have to be OK with my DM but I was curious about your opinion.

Thanks!
Hello again,

Your great answers to my previous question have inspired another one - hope you don't mind. Here's a tactic that occurred to me that I'd like to run by you:

Whereas: If I ready an action to counterspell, I have time to identify the opponent's spell and cast one of my own, i.e. a counterspell. Also, a readied action is resolved before the action that triggered it;

Therefore: Could I ready an action to, in response to enemy spellcasting, identify their spell and cast Spell Immunity [Enemy Spell]? If not, what about Quickened Spell Immunity?

Obviously it would have to be OK with my DM but I was curious about your opinion.

Thanks!

1- Ready a Counterspell is a special ready action that having her own rules, is triggered at the same that of the spellcasting that are doing the spell making that this spell has no effect.

2- You can make a ready action to cast a spell if some one try to cast a spell, if you have spellcraft you can know what spell are trying to cast (no action required) and say "I active my ready action" or "I dont want active my ready action" and waint until the next trigger (someone casting a spell and Your ready are resolved first)

3- While you are doing your ready action you can only do the Action that you was ready (and/or an Immediate action and 5-Foot step) if you are doing a ready action you can't active a swif action.
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In your case Quicken isn't going to help any so we can just leave that out.

I think I'd allow it BUT you need to realize it may not be entirely effective. You need to specify the spell to Ready and I'll just point out that Spell Immunity has its limits.  I'll also point out that it is not effective against certain types of spells that will fall within its level limits.  How those limits work will be up to you and your DM to determine the trigger requirements.  Now besides Spell Immunities's own limits you will still need to recognize the spell being cast inorder to select the right spell for Immunity; fortunately that Spellcraft check is a non-action but you can fail it which could have consequences determined by the DM.  Oh, and there is also that little issue that Spell Immunity is a touch spell which under these conditions I will not say is automatically successful.

Lets see if I can summarize how things may work and fail:
1.  You need to Ready Spell Immunity with some trigger.  Danger here is setting trigger.
2.  Enemy starts casting spell and you should get Spellcraft check to determine spell.  Check failure possible.
3.  All kinds of possible fails.  Perhaps your trigger doesn't go or you may not know what spell to protect against.  You may not even be able to protect against the spell being cast.
4.  If things go your way you will get to cast Spell Immunity.
4a.  Make touch attack roll against Spell Immunity target.  Note that you should be able to miss a willing target here.
4b.  Spell Immunity could be up to interact with spell being cast.

I'm saying it could be done but is also full of risks.  Can you identify the spell?  Can Spell Immunity actually protect you from that spell.  Can you touch the target to receive the spell immunity?  That is a lot of ifs.

you don't need to say what spells is going to be cast for the ready action you only need ready the action "i going to cast a spell if someone cast a spell" like you can say "i going to attack any character that enter to my range"
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Can you say more about the potential trigger difficulties? Seems like "If I realize he's casting a spell" is a pretty straightforward trigger. I mean, yeah, obviously if it's a Still spell or I don't have line of sight or something then it's obviously a problem...
Can you say more about the potential trigger difficulties? Seems like "If I realize he's casting a spell" is a pretty straightforward trigger. I mean, yeah, obviously if it's a Still spell or I don't have line of sight or something then it's obviously a problem...

if you cant see and/or listen the spellcaster casting you can't know that he are casting then you can't trigger your ready action.

as example if someone are casted with silence and still spell you can't do a spellcraft and you can trigger a ready action like couterspell.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Can you say more about the potential trigger difficulties? Seems like "If I realize he's casting a spell" is a pretty straightforward trigger. I mean, yeah, obviously if it's a Still spell or I don't have line of sight or something then it's obviously a problem...

You can go off of that trigger.  The "problem" with that trigger is there is no guarentee it will do you any good.  He casts a spell and you cast Spell Immunity.  Ok, that works but what spell(s) do you choose with Spell Immunity?  You have that Spellcraft check to see if you recognize what he is casting but even if you don't you are still casting Spell Immunity.  What if you do recognize the spell being cast but it is something that Spell Immunity couldn't protect you from (say Disentigration) or one that you can not resist with the infinite Spell Resistance Immunity provides (the Orb spells come to mind here)?  These are the problems I am thinking about.

you don't need to say what spells is going to be cast for the ready action you only need ready the action "i going to cast a spell if someone cast a spell" like you can say "i going to attack any character that enter to my range"

That could be but how specific the readied action and how specific the trigger needs to be is all up to the DM.  Some DMs will require very specific actions to be taken for a very specific trigger.

I will also point out that the danger with setting a general trigger for a readied action is that there may be things that "set it off" when you really don't want them to.
 
Cool, thanks.
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Thats true but the examples in some guides not are very specific like "i going to cast defensively a magic missile to X target" and many of the examples have a general trigger

remember that you can say "i dont want to use my ready action" and you are still in ready action until other trigger appears.

"Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition."
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 And down the rabbit hole we go again.  Anyone who was reading this thread regarding the original poster's question can probably stop now.  I am going to try and limit my further responses because my following statement will likely be met with unending and unreasoning resistance. 

remember that you can say "i dont want to use my ready action" and you are still in ready action until other trigger appears.

"Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition."

Yes and NO.

When the trigger event for your readied action occurs you may choose to take the readied action or you may choose to give up the action.  You either do it or you do not, there is no "not this time."  For example if you ready "I attack the next creature that comes through that door," and an ally comes walking through you can attack him or you can basically say "oops" and not make the attack.  In either case you no longer have an action readied for when the Ogre that was chasing your friend comes through the doorway; is it no long "the next creature" which you had set up with your Ready action.

Using Ready is powerful but it does have its limitations and the trigger condition is one of them.
 
 And down the rabbit hole we go again.  Anyone who was reading this thread regarding the original poster's question can probably stop now.  I am going to try and limit my further responses because my following statement will likely be met with unending and unreasoning resistance. 

remember that you can say "i dont want to use my ready action" and you are still in ready action until other trigger appears.

"Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition."

Yes and NO.

When the trigger event for your readied action occurs you may choose to take the readied action or you may choose to give up the action.  You either do it or you do not, there is no "not this time."  For example if you ready "I attack the next creature that comes through that door," and an ally comes walking through you can attack him or you can basically say "oops" and not make the attack.  In either case you no longer have an action readied for when the Ogre that was chasing your friend comes through the doorway; is it no long "the next creature" which you had set up with your Ready action.

Using Ready is powerful but it does have its limitations and the trigger condition is one of them.
 

What part of the ready action say that you lost it if you dont trigger it????


you problem is your example the "first person" your be very specific the first person are only trigger one time

But if you Call a ready for "when a spellcaster cast a dangerous spell for my, I going to cast a spell" let you trigger it when a caster cast a spell dangerous for you and this will happen many times in a turn.



Ready: You can use a standard action to prepare another action later in the round. Readying does not provoke an attack of opportunity.








From PH pg 160: "Distracting Spellcasters: You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result). Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready certain piercing weapons, setting them to receive charges (see Table 7-5: Weapons, page 116). A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character."

You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action; regardless of the readied action, it always costs you a standard action to ready it. When you ready, you must specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. It pays to be as general as possible when specifying conditions. For example, it's far better to prepare to shoot the first creature that comes around a corner than the first orc that comes around the corner (unless you really are interested in shooting only orcs, or if you're concerned that an ally may come around the corner). When in doubt, ask your DM how specific you must be.


If you do not take your readied action by the time your next turn comes, your opportunity to act is lost, but you can ready your action (or another action) again. When you take a readied action, your initiative number changes, as noted on page 160 of the Player's Handbook. When you take your readied action, you usually resolve your action before resolving whatever triggered the readied action. For example, if you readied to shoot a creature coming around a corner, you take the shot before your foe completes his movement. You can use a readied action to disrupt an enemy's spell or deal extra damage to a charging enemy, as noted in the Player's Handbook.




READY WISELY
If delay is about waiting for circumstances to determine your
action, ready is about choosing the circumstances that trigger
your action. But what if that circumstance doesn’t happen?
Think of a ready action like a basic computer program: if this
happens, then this occurs. As anyone who works with computers
knows, the “garbage in, garbage out” rule always applies.
If you’re not specific enough with your proposed ready action,
then your result might not be exactly what you hoped for. And if
you’re too specific, the condition might not be met and you’ve
lost a round’s worth of actions.
Use ready sparingly, only when you’re certain that the triggering
event will occur and that you’re willing to follow through
on your readied action. If you’re not absolutely sure that the orc
shaman you’re talking to is just waiting for the rest of his tribe
to show up, maybe it’s best not to ready an attack until you’re
certain about his intentions.
But if you
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Oma, the last paragraph you quoted answers your question for you.
Oma, the last paragraph you quoted answers your question for you.

yes you need be the most unspecific to let your ready action be trigger in many circumstances that let you dont waste your turn, and can drop a trigger with the hope to other creature can trigger it.
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Thanks Asteron.

Oma, if you can just "skip" the trigger event because it doesn't suit you then there is NO reason for you to be anything remotely specific about the trigger.  You've just turned "Ready" into and improved form of Delay.  As you mentioned and Asteron pointed out if your trigger is to general you might not get to do what you wanted to do when you wanted to do it.
Thanks Asteron.

Oma, if you can just "skip" the trigger event because it doesn't suit you then there is NO reason for you to be anything remotely specific about the trigger.  You've just turned "Ready" into and improved form of Delay.  As you mentioned and Asteron pointed out if your trigger is to general you might not get to do what you wanted to do when you wanted to do it.

for it you need play with a open ready.

as example if you say "I cast spell again the first that cast a spell" then a friend can trigger it (and if something dont let you recognize him you will hurt a pal) and the trigger can only happen 1 time in the round

if you say "I cast my Magic Missil again X target if Y target do a 5 foot step and then cast Fireball again Z target and then draw a Adamantine Long Sword with an inscription on the right edge that says in Elf "Corellon Larethian Rule" as a free action and then sheathe it " this will fall in a Never trigger.

But if you say "I am Ready to Cast A spell in reply to other character casting a spell" then you can apply the trigger many times (only the trigger if you do your ready you waste it) and no rule say that you can't

as example if some wizard cast a fireball but again the barbarian Rouge with Fire resistan you can drop the trigger but if after a sorcerer cast disintegrate again a Daying Friend you can say "I trigger my ready now".

Right for do this you need a gread Spellcraft.


Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
So you're just saying that I can Ready my standard action for "when ever I want to take it and potentially use it to interupt something along the way."  That's not what Ready is for.

Like I said before, "down the rabbit hole we go," so knock yourself out Oma.  There is absolutely nothing I, or anyone else, can say that will turn you from your path despite all the issues it causes.  Ready is a relatively specific action to a relatively specific trigger; when that trigger event happens you either squeeze it or you give up your shot.  If you can just skip over a trigger there is no reason at all to be specific at all and you could just do something "when an opponent acts" because you can then skip every possible trigger until you find one you like.

What you are doing is turning Ready into Delay except you get go before whatever you want and potentially disrupt that instead of needed to wait before you act.

I said I'll try to limit my responses and we'll see how well that works from here.  I know you can't leave it alone so play it however you like but even you should see how all of your posting never resolves ANYTHING and instead just spirals down to a point no one really cares anymore.
 

the open of the ready not is a issue is open for each DM, the point is that you don't lose your ready action if you drop the trigger, no one rule say it.

and for your ready this can be valid but if you do it you can only do a standard action per turn (less than the dealy) and changing your initiative score.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
"It pays to be as general as possible when specifying conditions. For example, it's far better to prepare to shoot the first creature that comes around a corner than the first orc that comes around the corner (unless you really are interested in shooting only orcs, or if you're concerned that an ally may come around the corner). When in doubt, ask your DM how specific you must be."

and

"If you’re not specific enough with your proposed ready action, then your result might not be exactly what you hoped for. And if you’re too specific, the condition might not be met and you’ve lost a round’s worth of actions. Use ready sparingly, only when you’re certain that the triggering event will occur and that you’re willing to follow through on your readied action."

That you quoted answers your statement. 

It does say you can be as general as possible, but also notes in the example "shoot the first creature comes around the corner"  vs "the first orc"  signifying that if an ally walked around the corner then you've just wasted your ready action.

The next part, which I bolded, shows that the DM will determine how specific you need to be, in short  "if you're not specific enough....you've lost a round's worth of actions."

The DM will determine how specific you must be, so the "I am Ready to Cast A spell in reply to other character casting a spell" the DM should require you to be more specific as that is far, far too general. Either "when the first person casts a Spell", "when a Specific person casts a spell" or "when a spell is cast on the Rogue"

Blather all you wish, misquote whatever FAQ and obscure text you want, but the fact remains that the DM will require you to be more specific then "I ready to do something, sometime"

In the case of interupting a spell caster, or counterspelling, the ready actionspecifies:

You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." and uses the same language for counterspelling, which is a good example of how specific you need to be.  

As far as reacting for when "anyone casts a spell" then there are two other things you forgot to take into consideration:
 
1: Spell Craft can identify a spell being cast, but it cannot tell you it's target, so you couldn't trigger a readied action based upon the target of the spell (ie the wizard casts disintigrate on the rogue) because by then it is too late. You would have to act when the wizard cast's a spell.

Additionally Readying to Counterspell, the trigger  (the spell caster starts to cast a spell) allows you to identify the spell with Spellcraft. That SpellCraft check is part of your readied action.

Readying a Counterspell:....
In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster’s spell.


You can only Ready one action, so there would be no way of telling what spell any of the casters were casting without using Your readied action to identify the spell.   
   

  
  
I agree with most everything MrCustomer said. His last statement regarding when you do Spellcraft checks I'm not so sure about though.


Identifying a spell as it's being cast (provided you can see and hear the spell's verbal and somatic components) does not require an action to do. My interpretation of this is that you can do this at any time during a round. It also implies that you can it an unlimited number of times, though, since you can't necessarily see and hear every opponent on a battlefield, I would limit this use to 2 or 3 times per round. This shouldn't be an issue very often I would think.


The fact that you must be able to see and hear the verbal and somatic components also tells me that if the spell is Stilled or Silent then identifying it by use of Spellcraft is impossible, or should at least incur big penalties (perhaps the penalties should apply only to casters that also have the Still or Silent feats being employed?). 


As far as wording of a Ready action, there seems to be a lot of extremes going on in this thread. Here are some examples that I would allow in my game.

"I ready an action to Counterspell an agressive spell cast by an opposing caster."
In this example my caster is specifically watching enemy casters so I would allow him to attempt a Spellcraft check for each spell they cast, mindful of the above resrictions. Their buffing spells wouldn't activate his ready. The first agressive spell cast wouldn't necessarily activate the Ready either if he doesn't possess the spell appropriate to counterspell it, so his ready would stand until a spell is cast that he can counter. If he loses his action, so be it.

"I ready an action to cast Spell Immunity in response to an opposing caster's spell."
As above the PC is mindful of all opposing casters and can react to whichever one he wants to in the order that they cast. As MrCustomer said, Spellcraft does not allow the PC to identify the target his enemy's casting. So, if he notices an opponent casting Charm Person, the most reasonable target is the party's Fighter, so he could choose to cast Spell Immunity on the Fighter if he can reach him with a 5' step. The target would obviously be nothing more than a guess and the Charm could have been intended for the spellcasting PC himself.

If either of the above examples instead said "the next opposing caster", then the readied action would have to act on the next opposing caster's spell. If he's incapable countering or doesn't want to waste the Spell Immunity spell on the spell then his Ready would be wasted.

In the case of "attacking the next creature to come through this door", this can be easily remedied by substituting Creature with Opponent. This avoids attacking other party members while not being so restrictive as saying the next orc and allowing the ogre that crashes though go unscathed.   


"I ready an action to Counterspell an agressive spell cast by an opposing caster."
In this example my caster is specifically watching enemy casters so I would allow him to attempt a Spellcraft check for each spell they cast, mindful of the above resrictions. Their buffing spells wouldn't activate his ready. The first agressive spell cast wouldn't necessarily activate the Ready either if he doesn't possess the spell appropriate to counterspell it, so his ready would stand until a spell is cast that he can counter. If he loses his action, so be it.



ok the point is in your first example.

The description say that you may do your ready but never say that this is wasted then if exist 3 opponent spell caster and you are in the same ready, if you dont want do your ready action again the first caster what rule say that you can trigger it whit the second spell caster?

then

first opposing caster cast an agressive spell then you may use your ready and you say "not"
Second opposing caster cast an agressive spell then you may use your ready and you say "yes"

The point is that you don't waste your ready action if you dont active it still are holding with the same trigger and not rule say that is wasted only if are your turn again and about that how open can be a ready action is a DM choice but for my you only need to say a kind of accion and a trigger.
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ok the point is in your first example.
The description say that you may do your ready but never say that this is wasted then if exist 3 opponent spell caster and you are in the same ready, if you dont want do your ready action again the first caster what rule say that you can trigger it whit the second spell caster?
then
first opposing caster cast an agressive spell then you may use your ready and you say "not" Second opposing caster cast an agressive spell then you may use your ready and you say "yes"
The point is that you don't waste your ready action if you dont active it still are holding with the same trigger and not rule say that is wasted only if are your turn again and about that how open can be a ready action is a DM choice but for my you only need to say a kind of accion and a trigger.



I'm sorry, your writing is so bad I can't tell if you're arguing against the examples I just gave, which actually to some extent support the point you've been trying to make, or what.
ok the point is in your first example.
The description say that you may do your ready but never say that this is wasted then if exist 3 opponent spell caster and you are in the same ready, if you dont want do your ready action again the first caster what rule say that you can trigger it whit the second spell caster?
then
first opposing caster cast an agressive spell then you may use your ready and you say "not" Second opposing caster cast an agressive spell then you may use your ready and you say "yes"
The point is that you don't waste your ready action if you dont active it still are holding with the same trigger and not rule say that is wasted only if are your turn again and about that how open can be a ready action is a DM choice but for my you only need to say a kind of accion and a trigger.



I'm sorry, your writing is so bad I can't tell if you're arguing against the examples I just gave, which actually to some extent support the point you've been trying to make, or what.

You may say not to activate your ready action again the caster if him trigger your ready?

If you say no, this waste your ready action?

First Turn
you make the Ready Action:"I ready an action to Counterspell an agressive spell cast by an opposing caster."

Second Turn
The first opponent cast an aggressive spell, this triggering your ready action then you may use your ready action and you can say "not, I don't going to activate my ready action"

third Turn
The Second opponent cast an aggressive spell, this triggering your ready action then you may use your ready action and you can say "Yes, I going to activate my ready action"
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Stuff and nonsense, the rules make it clear that the DM will determine how specific you need to be. If you are too general the DM can deny it.

Also the Trigger is chosen in advance, you can't choose the specifics of the trigger later.

Ie:

"I am going to shoot someone who comes around the corner."  and then deciding on a case by case basis if you will shoot them or not. You need to declare "I will shoot the first person to come around the corner, the first orc to come around the corner, the first oponent to come around the corner" etc.

Not "someone who comes around the corner"
Stuff and nonsense, the rules make it clear that the DM will determine how specific you need to be. If you are too general the DM can deny it.

Also the Trigger is chosen in advance, you can't choose the specifics of the trigger later.

Ie:

"I am going to shoot someone who comes around the corner."  and then deciding on a case by case basis if you will shoot them or not. You need to declare "I will shoot the first person to come around the corner, the first orc to come around the corner, the first oponent to come around the corner" etc.

Not "someone who comes around the corner"

No rule say that you need use FIRST in the entry, only that you need say a kind of action and one trigger.

please you can quote it ???
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Oma, you have already quoted the rules below. In fact you bolded and underlined

"When in doubt, ask your DM how specific you must be."

I am cut/pasting that from your own post.

How the DM should rule on how specific you must be is explained in the DMG on how to fairly abjucate the rules.   

   
Oma, you have already quoted the rules below. In fact you bolded and underlined

"When in doubt, ask your DM how specific you must be."

I am cut/pasting that from your own post.

How the DM should rule on how specific you must be is explained in the DMG on how to fairly abjucate the rules.   

   

then why you are saying that ?????

Your just cancel your own argument

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
You may say not to activate your ready action again the caster if him trigger your ready?

If you say no, this waste your ready action?

First Turn
you make the Ready Action:"I ready an action to Counterspell an agressive spell cast by an opposing caster."

Second Turn
The first opponent cast an aggressive spell, this triggering your ready action then you may use your ready action and you can say "not, I don't going to activate my ready action"

third Turn
The Second opponent cast an aggressive spell, this triggering your ready action then you may use your ready action and you can say "Yes, I going to activate my ready action"



The example you're questioning would work like this (As DM of my game I would allow this, other DMs may not):

You're in combat against a group including 3 casters, a cleric and two wizards. 

PC: "I ready an action to Counterspell an agressive spell cast by an opposing caster."

Evil Cleric's turn: Cure Light Wounds on his fighter. (Doesn't activate readied action.)

Evil Wizard 1: Casting Orb of Fire, Lesser (PC has no Orb of Fire, Lesser spell prepared nor an available Dispel Magic, doesn't activate readied action)

Evil Wizard 2: Casting Fireball (PC has a Fireball spell available, ready is triggered, enemy Fireball is countered) 


Alternatively:  
PC: "I ready an action to Counterspell an agressive spell cast by an opposing caster."

Evil Cleric's turn: Cure Light Wounds on his fighter. (Doesn't activate readied action.)

Evil Wizard 1: Casting Burning Hands (PC has no Burning Hands spell available but does have an available Dispel Magic, Ready activates but PC doesn't want to waste one of his Dispel Magic spells on such a minor spell, PC chooses skip his Action)

Evil Wizard 2: Casting Fireball (PCs Ready is no longer available to counter with his available Fireball or Dispel Magic)


If the PC wizard had said, "I ready an action to Counterspell a spell cast by an opposing caster." then in the above scenario he would have to have countered the Cure Light Wounds or lost his readied action.

The point is, there needs to be a good balance between specific and vague or you run the risk of hurting the party or losing your action. Since there are only so many things that can happen in a 6 second round it only stands to reason that someone is going to use their Readied action at their first opportunity instead of hoping that there is another trigger before their next turn.

I'f you're able to figure out which caster is the most powerful or is likely to cast the type of spells you want to counter, then at that point you should make your trigger more specific and indicate, "When Wizard 2 casts a spell, I do such and such."       

and in this example

Evil Wizard 1: Casting Fireball (PC has a Fireball spell available, ready is triggered and he may counter her fireball but you as player decide don't active your ready) 

Evil Wizard 2: Casting Fireball (PC has a Fireball spell available, ready is triggered, enemy Fireball is countered)
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Identifying a spell as it's being cast (provided you can see and hear the spell's verbal and somatic components) does not require an action to do. My interpretation of this is that you can do this at any time during a round. It also implies that you can it an unlimited number of times, though, since you can't necessarily see and hear every opponent on a battlefield, I would limit this use to 2 or 3 times per round. This shouldn't be an issue very often I would think.


I believe I linked to the Spellcraft skill previously.  Now maybe it needs to be done as part of something else but identifying a spell being cast is listed as "no action" although you need to see or hear the verbal or somatic (note, no AND) component to do so.  I believe there are other sources that list penalties to identifying a spell if things aren't present and I'd probably include the same distance penalty that spot has on the check.  You may not get the targetting information but if you can make the check you can recognize a spell being cast at any time.

As far as wording of a Ready action, there seems to be a lot of extremes going on in this thread. Here are some examples that I would allow in my game.

1.  "I ready an action to Counterspell an agressive spell cast by an opposing caster."
In this example my caster is specifically watching enemy casters so I would allow him to attempt a Spellcraft check for each spell they cast, mindful of the above resrictions. Their buffing spells wouldn't activate his ready. The first agressive spell cast wouldn't necessarily activate the Ready either if he doesn't possess the spell appropriate to counterspell it, so his ready would stand until a spell is cast that he can counter. If he loses his action, so be it.

2.  "I ready an action to cast Spell Immunity in response to an opposing caster's spell."
As above the PC is mindful of all opposing casters and can react to whichever one he wants to in the order that they cast. As MrCustomer said, Spellcraft does not allow the PC to identify the target his enemy's casting. So, if he notices an opponent casting Charm Person, the most reasonable target is the party's Fighter, so he could choose to cast Spell Immunity on the Fighter if he can reach him with a 5' step. The target would obviously be nothing more than a guess and the Charm could have been intended for the spellcasting PC himself.

If either of the above examples instead said "the next opposing caster", then the readied action would have to act on the next opposing caster's spell. If he's incapable countering or doesn't want to waste the Spell Immunity spell on the spell then his Ready would be wasted.

In the case of "attacking the next creature to come through this door", this can be easily remedied by substituting Creature with Opponent. This avoids attacking other party members while not being so restrictive as saying the next orc and allowing the ogre that crashes though go unscathed.


Perhaps some extremes are mentoned but here is how I see your examples:

1.  I'll point out that to Counterspell you must "select an opponent" so you do need to pick a specific opponent.  You and your DM also need to have predetermined what counts as an "aggressive spell" for that part of the trigger to work.  For example, you may not think that casting Enlarge Person on an opposing fighter is "aggressive" but I certainly might so we had better have this all worked out before hand.  Because "counterspell" is a specific action against a specific target you either use it or lose it; here if your "counter" would be Dispel Magic or you are a sorcerer there may be things you could dispel but don't want to and thus you give up your readied action.

2.  I'd rule this as "too vague" and require you to be more specific.  We can split hairs on "an opposing" being an individual but that may not be the biggest issue.  As I believe your intent it this is little more then "I ready a standard action for when some unspecified opponent does something."  I many ways this is what I see as Oma's take on Ready.  Now if you pick some more specific list of spells being cast then I become more willing to accept it although I believe that "the next" is always implied when you set a trigger for Ready.

I will say that "the next" is an implict part of using Ready and whatever your trigger condition is it always has that implied.  If I ready "I attack someone who walks through that door," you've got a trigger that is too wide open at least in my eyes.  If you way "I attack an opponent who walks through that door," you may have reduced your options but as a DM I can rule who "an opponent" is because you are not being specific enough; to put it another way if I know I'm going to have three goblins, an Ogre, two more goblins, and then a hobgoblin Sorcerer run through a door which one is the "opponent" you were looking for?

Using Ready instead of Delay is somewhat of a gamble but you need to specify things when you gamble otherwise it just becomes a much more powerful form of Delay. 
Stopped for lunch in the middle of my last post and it seems I missed a little.
The example you're questioning would work like this (As DM of my game I would allow this, other DMs may not):

You're in combat against a group including 3 casters, a cleric and two wizards. 

PC: "I ready an action to Counterspell an agressive spell cast by an opposing caster."

Evil Cleric's turn: Cure Light Wounds on his fighter. (Doesn't activate readied action.)

Evil Wizard 1: Casting Orb of Fire, Lesser (PC has no Orb of Fire, Lesser spell prepared nor an available Dispel Magic, doesn't activate readied action)

Evil Wizard 2: Casting Fireball (PC has a Fireball spell available, ready is triggered, enemy Fireball is countered) 

Alternatively:  
PC: "I ready an action to Counterspell an agressive spell cast by an opposing caster."

Evil Cleric's turn: Cure Light Wounds on his fighter. (Doesn't activate readied action.)

Evil Wizard 1: Casting Burning Hands (PC has no Burning Hands spell available but does have an available Dispel Magic, Ready activates but PC doesn't want to waste one of his Dispel Magic spells on such a minor spell, PC chooses skip his Action)

Evil Wizard 2: Casting Fireball (PCs Ready is no longer available to counter with his available Fireball or Dispel Magic)
Show


If the PC wizard had said, "I ready an action to Counterspell a spell cast by an opposing caster." then in the above scenario he would have to have countered the Cure Light Wounds or lost his readied action.

The point is, there needs to be a good balance between specific and vague or you run the risk of hurting the party or losing your action. Since there are only so many things that can happen in a 6 second round it only stands to reason that someone is going to use their Readied action at their first opportunity instead of hoping that there is another trigger before their next turn.

I'f you're able to figure out which caster is the most powerful or is likely to cast the type of spells you want to counter, then at that point you should make your trigger more specific and indicate, "When Wizard 2 casts a spell, I do such and such."


Aside from some disagreements about what it says about Counterspelling requiring you to select an opponent, as opposed to a group of opponents, I believe you at least understand the idea.  That is to say that when the trigger comes up you either use it or you don't and that the trigger should be specific (here it is a spell you could counter).

I assume there is some kind of pretermined definition of an "aggressive spell" and one that is not which both sides agree with.  If "aggressive" is something that targets you or an ally or that causes damage that could be enough but I believe it misses some spells that would be called aggressive.  This is a potential grey area that some people would try to abuse.
well under RAW all spells that have target or save are an attacks for it you can only do summons while invisible (without break the spell).

And about the Counter Spells is right you select only one target, I only select her first example for the purposes of Open Ready.

The point is that as normal you dont need select a target or say the first then your trigger condition , then this can happen many times until your next turn and the Ready Action is only used if you active your ready action not if the trigger happen.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.

I believe I linked to the Spellcraft skill previously.  Now maybe it needs to be done as part of something else but identifying a spell being cast is listed as "no action" although you need to see or hear the verbal or somatic (note, no AND) component to do so.  I believe there are other sources that list penalties to identifying a spell if things aren't present and I'd probably include the same distance penalty that spot has on the check.  You may not get the targetting information but if you can make the check you can recognize a spell being cast at any time.



That's fine, I agree with your assessment of RAW. IMO though, if a spell isn't being cast the way a caster knows it to be cast, including both Verbal and Somatic components if the spell has both by default, then he will have penalties to his Spellcraft check. If he has the feat Silent Spell and is witnessing someone casting a spell without Verbal comp (that normally would have them), or is deprived of hearing then he would not be subject to this penalty. The same goes for Still Spell and suffering from blindness for spells with Somatic comp.

Yes, this would a house rule. I think it's perfectly reasonable though.  

 

Perhaps some extremes are mentoned but here is how I see your examples:

1.  I'll point out that to Counterspell you must "select an opponent" so you do need to pick a specific opponent.  You and your DM also need to have predetermined what counts as an "aggressive spell" for that part of the trigger to work.  For example, you may not think that casting Enlarge Person on an opposing fighter is "aggressive" but I certainly might so we had better have this all worked out before hand.  Because "counterspell" is a specific action against a specific target you either use it or lose it; here if your "counter" would be Dispel Magic or you are a sorcerer there may be things you could dispel but don't want to and thus you give up your readied action.

2.  I'd rule this as "too vague" and require you to be more specific.  We can split hairs on "an opposing" being an individual but that may not be the biggest issue.  As I believe your intent it this is little more then "I ready a standard action for when some unspecified opponent does something."  I many ways this is what I see as Oma's take on Ready.  Now if you pick some more specific list of spells being cast then I become more willing to accept it although I believe that "the next" is always implied when you set a trigger for Ready.

I will say that "the next" is an implict part of using Ready and whatever your trigger condition is it always has that implied.  If I ready "I attack someone who walks through that door," you've got a trigger that is too wide open at least in my eyes.  If you way "I attack an opponent who walks through that door," you may have reduced your options but as a DM I can rule who "an opponent" is because you are not being specific enough; to put it another way if I know I'm going to have three goblins, an Ogre, two more goblins, and then a hobgoblin Sorcerer run through a door which one is the "opponent" you were looking for?

Using Ready instead of Delay is somewhat of a gamble but you need to specify things when you gamble otherwise it just becomes a much more powerful form of Delay. 



Thanks for pointing out the part of Counterspell requiring a specific opponent be targeted. I wasn't looking at Rules Compendium when I was writing the post and must not have paid as much attention to the different wording in PH.

As far as my examples being too vague. I'm gonna have to politely disagree. When you're in the middle of combat you know what "opposing" means. You are reducing a reasonable statement of intent to "Blah blah blah blah", which is not even close to what the statement was. "If such and such wizard casts an aggressive spell, then I try to counter it," is nothing like "If somebody does something, then I do something first."
A Player should not have to say, "If wizard 2 casts Fireball or Cone of Cold, then I counter it."

As far as Aggressive spells being to vague as well? Obviously that needs to be determined at the gaming table. For me Enlarge Person is a Buffing spell because the spell itself does not hurt you, the opponent it was cast upon does. Fire Shield, however, is both a buff and an agressive spell because it helps the person it's cast upon and the spell itself is what is going to damage you.
Oma, you have already quoted the rules below. In fact you bolded and underlined

"When in doubt, ask your DM how specific you must be."

I am cut/pasting that from your own post.

How the DM should rule on how specific you must be is explained in the DMG on how to fairly abjucate the rules.   

   

then why you are saying that ?????

Your just cancel your own argument




Uhh... only if the DM in question is a completely spineless idiot.

What that part says is that the DM can look you square in the eyes and say "NO! You must be more specific. You cannot do that Oma, your trigger is too general!"

as well that he can say that is too specific what is he fact???
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
It means Oma, that the DM would follow the DMG's guidelines for fairly abjucating the rules to decide on how specific you need to be.

So basically unless your DM was a completely spineless twit. He would not allow you to pick and choose what spell to "trigger" in the manner that you described
It means Oma, that the DM would follow the DMG's guidelines for fairly abjucating the rules to decide on how specific you need to be.

So basically unless your DM was a completely spineless twit. He would not allow you to pick and choose what spell to "trigger" in the manner that you described

still you are saying he can then???
this Ready action can be Valid under the rules because is a DM option and this is open from nop to yes.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
NO Oma, what I am saying is that Only a DM that didn't understand how to DM would make such a bad ruling. The Ready Action feat clearly reads that the trigger has to be reasonably specific, and that the trigger has to be chosen in advance.

For example, you can't choose to "shoot a person that comes around the corner" and then make a case by case desicion to skip the trigger as people come around the corner. You need to be more specific, I shoot the orc or I shoot the first opponent etc. You can't be too general
 
NO Oma, what I am saying is that Only a DM that didn't understand how to DM would make such a bad ruling. The Ready Action feat clearly reads that the trigger has to be reasonably specific, and that the trigger has to be chosen in advance.

For example, you can't choose to "shoot a person that comes around the corner" and then make a case by case desicion to skip the trigger as people come around the corner. You need to be more specific, I shoot the orc or I shoot the first opponent etc. You can't be too general
 



DMG primary source
1- THE DM ALWAYS IS RIGHT

The DM is the only one who can tell how open can be the specification of the condition
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.

 DMG primary source, THE DM ALWAYS IS RIGHT



The greatest fallacy of all time.
wow Oma, that is singularly the most contemptuous thing you've said thus far, and if that is what you are contributing to the discussion then do us all a favor and just go

Maybe you need read your DMG 3.5

Pag 4



the DM can change the rules and the DM have the ultimate word in a rule issue
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
That's a far cry from "the DM is always right"...