Completely insane (probably), but appealing idea

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What is wrong with that idea for (may be) DotP 2014 - make land cards to draw every turn at the same time with cards of other types (in other words, two cards at once)? Yes, I understand that it'll undermine such things as mana curve, mana fixers and so on. But isn't this relatively small sacrifice worth it? Equal terms? Without floods and screws that can shut down your deck no matter how it was bulit (in most cases)? And yes - it is game of chance (more or less), but such condition'll provide chances of pure tactical matter without sudden (and unexplainable) crush. More skill, less luck. I feel that I'm wrong somehow, but may be it's worth discussing?
This idea is not new, but it's better to be discussed in other sections of this forum.

I'll just leave a better idea here. No lands at all. The player uses other cards as lands to provide mana.
This idea is not new, but it's better to be discussed in other sections of this forum.



I just thought that if (like they say) DotP is more casual variant of MtG, it can be allowed.

I'll just leave a better idea here. No lands at all. The player uses other cards as lands to provide mana.



Sounds great, by the way. Neat, self-sufficient scheme.
Here is an idea let's play a different game. seriously guys this game has used lands as a resource forever. The randomness is widely accepted as a good part of the game. Especially if we get to adjust our land count in 2014.
No offense, but that would ruin the game.
Didn't the creator of magic say that he wasn't sattisfy by how land works as a resource and that he would work on an overhaul to magic that would take away mana.

I thought i read something about this somewhere.
It would make the game more fluent, but it would take away different aspects of the game. 

1) There would be no sub-game of managing lands/mana.

2) No real point in playing land destruction cards.

3) It would make current late game cards much stronger than they are at the moment.

Basically I think it would dumb down the game way too much, but that being said, it's still an interesting proposal.
I'm like the random elements in magic, to me it makes the game so much deeper.
The game would be way too straight-forward with free lands.

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I prefer the way Shadow Era handles resource management.
Magic is a 20 year old game, something as fundamental as how land/mana works won't change now.
This idea is not new, but it's better to be discussed in other sections of this forum.

I'll just leave a better idea here. No lands at all. The player uses other cards as lands to provide mana.



This is actually how the Kaijudo card game works. You can place one card from your hand on the battlefield each turn, and it's used just like land of that card's color for the rest of the game.


Sean Gibbons

Associate Community Manager

Official MTG Twitter: @Wizards_Magic Official MTGO Twitter: @MagicOnline

Magic is a 20 year old game, something as fundamental as how land/mana works won't change now.



Sounds like old man logic. "This rule sucks but we made it so long ago so we don't feel like changing it".

I've also heard that the creator of magic never meant the game to rely so heavily on mana. 50% of my losses come from getting mana screwed/mana flooded at one time or another.

Honestly, if they gave us custom rules in DOTP 14, I wouldn't mind the topic creator's idea, it's worth a try and if you don't like it, don't play custom matchmaking.

Whatever Richard Garfield may have said at one time about mana, it's too ingrained in the game now to change the way it works. All of the following would happen by allowing players to draw lands as a separate step, or use spells as lands:
-The difficulty of casting multicolored spells would be meaningless, therefore multicolored spells would not be special or powerful.
-As someone else already mentioned, land destruction would be pointless.
-Land fetching would be irrelevant.
-Manafixing would be pointless.
-Much like multicolored spells, 5+ CMC cards wouldn't be nearly as special or powerful.

I'm sure there are other aspects that I'm not thinking of at the moment. Changing this one part of the game would have far-reaching ramifications for other mechanics. It would be like Major League Baseball switching to teeball. I understand the frustration of the OP, but you can't change the way mana works and I feel pretty confident saying it will never be changed in any incarnation of the game.

1. The difficulty of casting multicolored spells would be meaningless, therefore multicolored spells would not be special or powerful.
2. As someone else already mentioned, land destruction would be pointless.
3. Land fetching would be irrelevant.
4. Manafixing would be pointless.
5. Much like multicolored spells, 5+ CMC cards wouldn't be nearly as special or powerful. 



It is true, but (for the sake of discussion, at least) - doesn't it feel like the tools mentioned in the points 3 and 4 are acting like relatively small patches for much bigger problem? They are all cards too and all of them can be at the bottom of the library. You can change smth with your the weakest  cards (if the strongest ones are at the bottom), but simply can't do anything without mana. And your opponent knows that all the time. So the game is ruined for all sides. 

So I like the idea about

No lands at all. The player uses other cards as lands to provide mana.



Still for the sake of discussion - it covers pounts 1, 2 and 5 (more or less). Your units = your manabase. Reckless rush = Phyrexian Obliterator all over the place. Removal = land destruction. Dual coloured units = dual coloured lands. Special lands (like Cathedral of War) can be used as enchantments.

P.S.)
 like Major League Baseball switching to teeball

 

And now it is a good chance that baseball stars (no matter how great they are) can't go to the field, because there are no land there to stand on. Just so.
This thread is weird to me.  I honestly don't think land is that big an issue if you build your deck properly.  If you are consistently having trouble playing your cards, news flash, you probably have too many high cmc cards.  It really is that simple, there is nothing broken about mana.

As for the cards as resources idea, wouldn't that make cards like pernicious deed and DoJ over powered? (totally against the idea, but curious anyway)

edit: and instants/sorceries become useless... 
Also, would the resources as mana people realize that they would still HAVE to play 24 1 cmc cards in order to ever get to their bigger ones... Lol.

handfull of 2 CMC cards... "Darn it, this doesn't work!" LoL


almost joking... But not really. 

1. The difficulty of casting multicolored spells would be meaningless, therefore multicolored spells would not be special or powerful.
2. As someone else already mentioned, land destruction would be pointless.
3. Land fetching would be irrelevant.
4. Manafixing would be pointless.
5. Much like multicolored spells, 5+ CMC cards wouldn't be nearly as special or powerful. 



It is true, but (for the sake of discussion, at least) - doesn't it feel like the tools mentioned in the points 3 and 4 are acting like relatively small patches for much bigger problem? They are all cards too and all of them can be at the bottom of the library. You can change smth with your the weakest  cards (if the strongest ones are at the bottom), but simply can't do anything without mana. And your opponent knows that all the time. So the game is ruined for all sides.



#3 and #4 are what make #1 and #5 relevant. This is the point that I'm trying to make: M:TG is like an ecosystem. It has evolved over the past 20+ years to its current state and making a change like this (either of them) will collapse it. It's like saying, "hey, bees are annoying. Let's kill all the bees." Well now you've reduced the heartiness and yield of important crops. Now food prices are going up. The world isn't ending, but it has gotten a lot less complex and pleasant to live in.

So I like the idea about

No lands at all. The player uses other cards as lands to provide mana.



Still for the sake of discussion - it covers pounts 1, 2 and 5 (more or less). Your units = your manabase. Reckless rush = Phyrexian Obliterator all over the place. Removal = land destruction. Dual coloured units = dual coloured lands. Special lands (like Cathedral of War) can be used as enchantments.



There's a game that sort of exists like that already: the Marvel VS. card game. It isn't bad, but it isn't even close to as deep or complex as Magic. 

P.S.)
 like Major League Baseball switching to teeball

 

And now it is a good chance that baseball stars (no matter how great they are) can't go to the field, because there are no land there to stand on. Just so.



That analogy doesn't make any sense. I'm talking about mana as complexity and you're talking about it as a playing surface.

Anyway, as DJ already pointed out, the people who complain about this the most just don't seem to grasp proper deck-building strategies. Why are you all loading your decks up with so many 5+ CMC cards?  Why are you playing with 70+ card decks? There are valid ways to play under those conditions, but you have to support them.

The Cathedral of War mention reminds me of some other factors to consider. Putting the Cathedral's effect on an enchantment just makes it vulnerable to enchantment hate. The Cathedral is special specifically because it's a land and not subject to the same kind of threats that enchantments face. And what about other ability lands, like ones that become creatures? Do we get rid of them? We have no idea how they would be affected by either of the changes being considered in this thread.

Magic is not perfect, by any means, but I don't think that either of the suggestions in this thread even come close as viable solutions to make it better.
Ok-ok) I yield) I agree about ecosystem completely. Just wish that mythic randomness (there are a huge thread about it somewhere nearby) will be slightlty corrected in favour of reasonable mana base. According to my observations, it is happening. My GM build (60 cards with all Terramorfics) used to have screws and mulligans with no mana more often, then not in November. And now the same build is quite playable. Such things still happen, but... Let's hope, shall we?)
This sounds like it would be potentially balance-breaking for many cards.  Some powerful creatures are cheap, because they require multicolor mana.  Some cards' special abilities like Viridian Emissary, or Ob Nixilis, the Fallen become pointless.  I like current mana system.  It adds another layer to the game.
Not to mention that it would completely alter how decks are built.  If I'm guaranteed a land every turn then I'd build a deck something like this:

4 Vampire Nighthawk  3cmc is where the deck starts.  I don't need to waste space in my deck for weak 1 and 2 cmc cards because I'm guaranteed to get 3.  With a lifelink creature, I'll make up the difference in the long run
2 Geralf's Messenger
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Bloodgift Demon
2 Veilborn Ghoul
3 Grave Titan
3 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
2 Lim-Dul the Necromancer (as seen here: gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.... I can't make the u with the ^ over it)

That is rediculous.  Out of 36 cards that still leaves me with room for 4 Corrupt, Murder and Tendrils of Corruption

I think that anyone can see that that decklist would get rediculously out of hand by turn 5.  And why is that possible?  Because I don't have to worry about land.  I will always curve right into my 5, 6 and 7 CMC creatures.  Normally I wouldn't even run 7cmc creatures, and not 6 6cmc creatures.  But since I'm not worried about missing land drops I'm able to do it with no risk at all.  In fact, I'd probably end you with a big Corrupt by turn 7.  Plus, if I get a Veilborn out, I'm guaranteed to get him back every single turn.

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

I dunno, I think one of the biggest arguments against changing the mana system is that it's proven to work.

CCGs have come and gone, consistently, for the last 20 years.  Most of them have rejected the MTG land/mana system.  And none of them ever touch Magic in terms of popularity.  They come, and they GO.  Sure, some of that is market position, but if anyone came out with a clearly better system, people would move over to that game, and it would stick around as a serious competitor.  So far... nope!

So no need to mess with it.
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