Wizards traditions should have suggested spells.

Same as the fighting style, or thief schemes, monk tradition, and cleric (sort of).

Nothing mandatory, but simply a list of what spells that fit the theme.  So you don't have to read the whole spell list to find a level 3 illusion spell.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Why are school descriptors not sufficient for this (illusion, conjuration, etc.)?

I think traditions should have riders attached to particular spells a bit like manoeuvres that can be tacked on in place of spell damage scaling e.g. thunderwave that blasts people back further or can deafen; light spells that can blind, or inflict radiant damage etc.
Spell lists by school would suffice, I think.  Alternatively you could color code the spell list by school, so that the list stays in an order that is easy for everyone to reference, but still lends itself to quick selection by players interested in specialization.
"When Friday comes, we'll all call rats fish." D&D Outsider
Why are school descriptors not sufficient for this (illusion, conjuration, etc.)?

Cause you have to read the entire spell list to find them.


Spell lists by school would suffice, I think.  Alternatively you could color code the spell list by school, so that the list stays in an order that is easy for everyone to reference, but still lends itself to quick selection by players interested in specialization.

I like colors.  Though some people are color blind, so you can't depend on it.  But that would still requires you to scan the spell list.



And again, i wasn't suggesting a mechanical change.  Just a presentation one.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

What if the spell list was organized by school, something like this:

School > Spell Level > Alphabetical

Traditions having suggested spells learned at every level (and cleric's having suggestions for typical spells to prepared besides their Domain spells) would be perfect.

If the game has pre-built suggestions of a number of varieties of character with all the choices short of character name, alignment, and appearance it is much more accessible for those players that want to just casually sit down and dive into the game or that want to give a class they have never played a test-drive without having to spend time pouring over the available options to build a character they are completely unfamiliar with.

...and so long as those builds remain suggestions that those players wanting a more granular character generation system can ignore without being hindered in any way but the time spent building their character nothing is lost - so it's a win-win situation.

I'd personally love for character creation for every class to be as easy, if you choose it to be, as saying "He is a Human scholarly wizard of noble birth and sagacious knowledge" and never being required to make any further decisions so you can just focus on playing.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

What if the spell list was organized by school, something like this:

School > Spell Level > Alphabetical

It does raise a minor issue if a spell exists in multiple schools.

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Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
What if the spell list was organized by school, something like this:

School > Spell Level > Alphabetical


Spells should be organized alphabetically - end of sentence.

Nothing is more irritating than flipping through old D&D books that are arranged by level to find a spell when the only thing you are sure about is the name of the spell.

I don't want to have the book expect me to have the school and spell level of every spell in the game memorized just to be able to fnd one quickly.

I don't even like it when the game books separates cleric and wizard spells into different chapters.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

There are times when I want different sorting criteria:

Alpha by spell name
Alpha by spell name by Wizard or Cleric
Alpha by Domain or School
Alpha by Level

And there may be others.

In memory of wrecan and his Unearthed Wrecana.

Nothing is more irritating than flipping through old D&D books that are arranged by level to find a spell when the only thing you are sure about is the name of the spell.

How about flipping through old D&D books that are arranged alphabetically to find a spell when the only thing you're sure about is that you want a level X {school} spell?

Sounds like what you need is an index. Have the actual spell list be arranged by school and level or whatever else makes the most sense, and then have an alphabetical index for quick reference when you know the name already. It's the best of both worlds.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Nothing is more irritating than flipping through old D&D books that are arranged by level to find a spell when the only thing you are sure about is the name of the spell.

How about flipping through old D&D books that are arranged alphabetically to find a spell when the only thing you're sure about is that you want a level X {school} spell?

Sounds like what you need is an index. Have the actual spell list be arranged by school and level or whatever else makes the most sense, and then have an alphabetical index for quick reference when you know the name already. It's the best of both worlds.


I think it makes more sense to have the spell descriptions alphabetical for reference, such as when a monster uses one as a spell-like ability, to allow for diving right into the spell chapter and knowing where to go rather than having to use an index (which takes me a bit longer).

Especially because it is extremely easy to look up spells by level and school on a Spell List by School sort of list - which Next could easily follow all D&D prior to 4e in having.

It actually makes finding each spell that fits your criteria easier - especially if the list that mentions which spells you are able to cast is sorted first by level, then by school, then alphabetically (as 3.x had them for classes that cared about spell school) and mentions the page number.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

Nothing is more irritating than flipping through old D&D books that are arranged by level to find a spell when the only thing you are sure about is the name of the spell.

How about flipping through old D&D books that are arranged alphabetically to find a spell when the only thing you're sure about is that you want a level X {school} spell?

Sounds like what you need is an index. Have the actual spell list be arranged by school and level or whatever else makes the most sense, and then have an alphabetical index for quick reference when you know the name already. It's the best of both worlds.

An extra index or 2 would be nice.

Or an excell spread sheet where you can just sort and search....


But you'd still want a "take these spells (unless you dont' want to)" in each tradition.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

You're never going to have a perfect layout for spells.  Period.  People are always going to have individual goals when they crack open the spells section.  Sometimes it's finding info on one particular spell, sometimes it's browsing for spells of a given level, sometimes you care more about the schools.  The problem is that those conditions and priorities are always changing, and there's no way to address them all at once.  Someone building a specialist wizard may not give a crap about anything other than one particular school, but that doesn't mean that we should arrange things by school first, because that becomes problematic for the people wanting to browse all of the Level X spells when picking which spell their wizard should learn.

The way it's been done before works well.  The section that details spell info should be arranged alphabetically, so that if you're looking for a particular spell that you already know the name of then you can go right to it.  Another section should have the lists by class, without any detail, just the name, school, and level.  Those sections should be arranged by level, and then within each level be grouped by school, rather than alphabetically.

Examle:  d20 SRD. 
www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWi...
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
The real key is to keep the core spell list to a reasonable size. Useless bloat will kill any attempts at organization. I'd rather not see 500+ spells with lots near-duplicates based on class, damage type, casting style, et al.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
The real key is to keep the core spell list to a reasonable size. Useless bloat will kill any attempts at organization. I'd rather not see 500+ spells with lots near-duplicates based on class, damage type, casting style, et al.

That's why i want to see more spells scale.

I mean, we have 5 (?) cure x wound spells.  We could have 1.

Cure: Target regains 2d6 hit points.
Special: You can cast this spell with a higher level slot.  Increase the amount healed by 1d6 per slot level.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Yeah...that's a very good idea. 
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I think this would be a really easy thing to impliment, and wouldn't change much. I think it would be a neat idea.

I think, however, the reason they haven't is because they don't want to lead people, who do not know otherwise, to think that these are the only spells they can prepare.
My two copper.
The only way to meet everyone's sorting priorities with an online tool, such as DDI's Compendium or the Pathfinder SRD. This takes care of any quick-reference or look-up needs. So the question becomes, what is the best way to present information in the book? Both in terms of the class and build choices and the actual spell list?

Well, yes, a Compendium of some sort is absolutely vital, but it also doesn't remove the need to print the spells in a book, and so we do have to ask that question, and honestly I think the answer is already there:  to do it in the ways that have worked before.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
So long as it's just suggestion, sure.
Why are school descriptors not sufficient for this (illusion, conjuration, etc.)?

Does DDN even really have schools yet?

Sure it does. 
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
The more spells the better. Vancian magic is redundant and fluffy by nature. Sorcerer magic ought to be exotic and signature. With more arcane to borrow from Priest can be 90% domai based instead of 10, specialist have more signature and wild magic has more range of error. May the core books have more spells than 2e since it has more forms of magic.
The more spells the better. Vancian magic is redundant and fluffy by nature. Sorcerer magic ought to be exotic and signature.

"Because FLAVOR!" is not an adequate justification for "Minor [spell]", "Slightly-Less-Minor [spell]", "[spell]", "The Spell Previously Known as [spell]", etc. existing.

That's why i want to see more spells scale.

I mean, we have 5 (?) cure x wound spells.  We could have 1.

A very sensible idea. Even for some spells that can't scale on a spell-level to spell-level basis, they two to however many different spell descriptions could be written in a more combined description format - like how spells are displayed on the PRD if there are multiple related spells (example: restoration, and it's lesser and greater variants).

Saves a lot of space to have them all be the same spell (call it restoration) and be listed as the lowest level but include a "casting this spell with a spell slot of at least X level has this additional effect" note for each of the higher-level versions.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

The more spells the better. Vancian magic is redundant and fluffy by nature. Sorcerer magic ought to be exotic and signature. With more arcane to borrow from Priest can be 90% domai based instead of 10, specialist have more signature and wild magic has more range of error. May the core books have more spells than 2e since it has more forms of magic.



Yes, let's really make Casters and Caddies worse.  Let's make a spell that does 1d6 more of whatever it does A DIFFERENT spell!  The fact that over a third of the 3.5E PHB was spells is disgusting.  Especially when a third of those spells can be summed up as "That other spell+X".  There does not need to be eight versions of the Cure Light Wounds spells.  It should be Cure Wounds, a 1st level spell, that can be prepared at a higher level slot for more healing.  They need to do EVERYTHING they can to streamline the spell lists as much as possible.  At least in the respect of crap that doesn't need to be a different spell.  Especially when there is already a system in place for SOME spells, but not others that logically could follow a similar scheme.
CORE MORE, NOT CORE BORE!
The more spells the better. Vancian magic is redundant and fluffy by nature. Sorcerer magic ought to be exotic and signature. With more arcane to borrow from Priest can be 90% domai based instead of 10, specialist have more signature and wild magic has more range of error. May the core books have more spells than 2e since it has more forms of magic.



Yes, let's really make Casters and Caddies worse.  Let's make a spell that does 1d6 more of whatever it does A DIFFERENT spell!  The fact that over a third of the 3.5E PHB was spells is disgusting.  Especially when a third of those spells can be summed up as "That other spell+X".  There does not need to be eight versions of the Cure Light Wounds spells.  It should be Cure Wounds, a 1st level spell, that can be prepared at a higher level slot for more healing.  They need to do EVERYTHING they can to streamline the spell lists as much as possible.  At least in the respect of crap that doesn't need to be a different spell.  Especially when there is already a system in place for SOME spells, but not others that logically could follow a similar scheme.




If we are talking about cure and cause light wounds then yes I agree make it one spell.


So we agree on some spells and you still need more spells.


More spells doesn’t mean more spells so im not sure how this improves casters. The too good for Next Warlock was the best class. They had their own magic. That’s my logic. You removed the best class; you removed a bunch of magic with it.


As a DM I always made scrolls rare. I created new magic. I borrowed from 2e. I didn’t want the players to think they could travel around the world and find the same spells.


The sorcerer is a decent class so far. The problem is that its casting the same damn spells. Where is the Dragon magic? Their spells were basic D&D spells. That is predictable. The Cleric is worse. I hate the cleric. Even the domain spells aren’t really domain spells. How are lance of faith and command, light spells? Where is Tasha’s Hideous laughter for Tricksters? If it was up to me Clerics would only cast from their domain or neighboring domains. They would have less spells but you would have to create more to buff the empty domains. Same applies in part with schools for specialist, and magic in general for wild mages (at least my take on it). A friend created an adventure Priest. Love the character.  He needed to create or borrow half the spells to pull it off.




Too bad there isn't some kind of  technology that would let us sort the spell list by whatever criteria we want... I just wish someone would invent this technology...Wink
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
The real key is to keep the core spell list to a reasonable size. Useless bloat will kill any attempts at organization. I'd rather not see 500+ spells with lots near-duplicates based on class, damage type, casting style, et al.

That's why i want to see more spells scale.

I mean, we have 5 (?) cure x wound spells.  We could have 1.

Cure: Target regains 2d6 hit points.
Special: You can cast this spell with a higher level slot.  Increase the amount healed by 1d6 per slot level.



Special2: At every level divisible by 5 you can split the dice you use to heal among an additonal target.
Speical3: At level 7 you can choose to forgoe rolling and heal a single target to full hit points...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I agree with the OP.

A list of recommendations would be fitting. 

Danny

The more spells the better. Vancian magic is redundant and fluffy by nature. Sorcerer magic ought to be exotic and signature. With more arcane to borrow from Priest can be 90% domai based instead of 10, specialist have more signature and wild magic has more range of error. May the core books have more spells than 2e since it has more forms of magic.

The more OPTIONS the better.

You don't need more spells to have more options.  For instance...

Arcane burst, you deal 6d6 damage in a 30' radius within 100'.
Special: When you prepare this spell, choose a damage type.  If you do not choose a type, it deals fire damgae.

You now combined fireball, with ice ball, and lightning ball, and acid ball, and sonic ball without using excessive space. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I find a simple alphabetical listing of spells to be the most difficult to playwith.

I much rather prefer the PHB to be sorted by level and then alphabetically, and that's exactly how the 2e PHB presented the spells. 

In addition, the PHB must also index/list the spells by school as well.    

I don't agree with adding anymore mechanics to the wizard class.  Spells can and should be capable of doing just about anything imaginable.  They shouldn't be limited by a mechanic or mechanized so that they can be upgraded.    If you don't like how a particular spell functions in the game alter it or create a new one.    Players should be able to suggest new spells and research them in game.   If you want "Improved Fireball" or "Energy Ball" then suggest that to your DM, it's that simple.    The game should encourage wizards to research new spells,  that way every wizard feels different.        For example, if you want a lightining bolt that shots off in 4 cardinal directions then research a 5th level spell called Cross Lightinging.


I don't agree with adding anymore mechanics to the wizard class.  Spells can and should be capable of doing just about anything imaginable.  They shouldn't be limited by a mechanic or mechanized so that they can be upgraded.    If you don't like how a particular spell functions in the game alter it or create a new one.    Players should be able to suggest new spells and research them in game.   If you want "Improved Fireball" or "Energy Ball" then suggest that to your DM, it's that simple.

Good points, but the post about too many "Cure" spells is also valid. Those spells that can be combined into one that allows expansion or increases should be combined, and the DMs can still work with the player to create variants and new spells.

In memory of wrecan and his Unearthed Wrecana.

I don't agree with adding anymore mechanics to the wizard class.  Spells can and should be capable of doing just about anything imaginable.  They shouldn't be limited by a mechanic or mechanized so that they can be upgraded.    If you don't like how a particular spell functions in the game alter it or create a new one.    Players should be able to suggest new spells and research them in game.   If you want "Improved Fireball" or "Energy Ball" then suggest that to your DM, it's that simple.

Good points, but the post about too many "Cure" spells is also valid. Those spells that can be combined into one that allows expansion or increases should be combined, and the DMs can still work with the player to create variants and new spells.



Well the end result is the same; more dice = higher level spell, the problem is that damage and healing dice are not the only properties that can/should change as a spell increases with level.   Higher level spells might include other changes like duration or range that are more appropriate to a higher level spells.   

For example,  you could have Cure Light wounds as a First level spell and then create a version called Silent Cure Light Wounds that requires no verbal components to cast,  Obviously it would be higher level.   





Well the end result is the same; more dice = higher level spell, the problem is that damage and healing dice are not the only properties that can/should change as a spell increases with level.   Higher level spells might include other changes like duration or range that are more appropriate to a higher level spells.   

For example,  you could have Cure Light wounds as a First level spell and then create a version called Silent Cure Light Wounds that requires no verbal components to cast,  Obviously it would be higher level.

I'd be really surprised if metamagic wasn't included somewhere, and that would cover those modifications.

In memory of wrecan and his Unearthed Wrecana.