Dread Necromancer - When Would You Play One?

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Got a player who wants to eventually play a Dread Necromancer, but we're wondering in what kind of campaigns would you need to be in for you to gain any actual benefit from the class?
If I remember, the goal of the DN is lichdom.  While there are good liches, I presume most that take this path are a bit more shady.  Not to mention, I believe it might tie in taint (also from Heroes of Horror) as well, since it's dealing with corruptive necromantic powers.  Also, what benefit will the character get from becoming a dread necromancer?  Do they want to focus on necromantic specialty or even hope to achieve lichdom?

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They can match just about any party that doesnt have a good cleric or paladin in the party and if he is the type that wants a massive herd of undead minions behind him then you want it to be a small party that doesnt mind one player taking a 10 min turn hehe. Just be very careful of any undead type that can create spawn/minions.
If I remember, the goal of the DN is lichdom.  While there are good liches, I presume most that take this path are a bit more shady.  Not to mention, I believe it might tie in taint (also from Heroes of Horror) as well, since it's dealing with corruptive necromantic powers.  Also, what benefit will the character get from becoming a dread necromancer?  Do they want to focus on necromantic specialty or even hope to achieve lichdom?


A few points.

1) By this definition, the goal of the monk is to become an outsider. Unless you're starting at 20 that's probably not going to be part of the plan.
2) Dread necromancers must be nongood, so the baelnorn ('good lich') is already out of the question.



Kevin: ever played a beguiler (or to a lesser extent, a warmage)? Dread necromancers are the same sort of idea, attached to spells based around undeath and negative energy. Their class features allow them to be reasonably durable for a caster at low levels, which helps because another of their low-level strengths is a short-range fear aura. They all take the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat at level 1 unless they're already undead - this isn't actually negotiable. (That feat allows them to heal themselves to full at will using their Charnel Touch ability.) Also, Charnel Touch is a bit weird because, as written, it actually can augment other touch effects without costing an action on its own (it takes an action to use on its own, but if you're using another touch spell - and dread necros have a lot of those - you can add on Charnel Touch when you deliver it). For this reason, if you get a buff round, you will probably be casting Spectral Hand. As your levels increase, you get a few other difficult-to-obtain abilities, most dramatically the ability to grab a ghostly visage familiar (giving you a gaze attack and immunity to mind-affecting abilities at a surprisingly low level).

After you hit level 8, the class changes. It gets a dramatic increase in its ability to create and command undead creatures. Some people (such as FrankTrollman, who wrote the Dread Necromancer Handbook here) see this as being based off of caster level rather than class level, but I read it as working off of class level; confirm which it is before planning out your character. Either way, this ability is on par with Leadership in terms of how it changes the game. Expect a good dread necromancer to do whatever it takes to raise his undead command cap even higher, to work his minions crazy to get more onyx, and to seek out impossibly powerful creatures to turn into powerhouses (particularly if he gets a way to copy the Deathbound domain spells to turbocharge powerful undead, or if he asks to use any book that mentions Szass Tam in it) - seriously, think undead dragons here. (Not the best example but it gives you a sense of scale if all you thought he could command were humanoid zombies.) As a DM, carefully watch the HD of the creatures you send at the party - if they kill it, and it can be raised, chances are he'll do it. 

At the really late levels the undeath command kind of dominates how you build them; I don't think anyone's designed a non-commander dread necromancer with lots of levels in the class. Still, they pack a few decent higher-level spells and get a lot of slots, so if you somehow go to a place where undead are wiped out instantly, he'll still be able to bring pain as a full, albeit narrowly-focused, spellcaster.

That's the dread necromancer in a nutshell. 

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[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
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[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

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Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

I've always looked at the DN as an undead-based Thrallherd. After reading Tempest's post, it sounds like I was understating it.
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I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
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i adore the dread necromancer.
Got a player who wants to eventually play a Dread Necromancer, but we're wondering in what kind of campaigns would you need to be in for you to gain any actual benefit from the class?

well the dread necromancer is a boss class planted with some set of rules in a special campaign, as evil you can become an NPC if you dont are an undead or a evil outsider, then if your player going to be a standard race let him the same corruption penalties.

as normal he can become undead at level 20 but he need stay regulating her corruption until that level for dont become a NPC.

with this her character will stay more balanced vs the standards classes.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
well the dread necromancer is a boss class planted with some set of rules in a special campaign, as evil you can become an NPC if you dont are an undead or a evil outsider, then if your player going to be a standard race let him the same corruption penalties.

Eh?

with this her character will stay more balanced vs the standards classes.

The Dread Necro is already balanced (note: I am not saying "well-balanced", just balanced - though, having not played one, it looks to me that it is in fact both).
There are some cool things which can be done with it (the Tomb-Tainted Soul + Charnel Touch combo means free healing for you) and at low levels, the DR and other abilities are quite neat (and interesting option is to take Shape Soulmeld: Lifebond Vestments and Tomb-Tainted Soul. Then you have slightly more limited out-of-combat healing for the whole party, though it pales at higher levels). At higher levels it's just a Sorcerer with more spells, but also more limited spells, and some nice and flavourful abilities on top. It's no more powerful than the Beguiler, IMO.

They can match just about any party that doesnt have a good cleric or paladin in the party...

Depends exactly on the Cleric (or even Paladin), I would think. My new favourite deity is Wee Jas, who is a perfect model for a Dread Necro. She's LN (albeit with LE tendencies) and all about undead, but encourages her followers to operate within the law. I actually imagine the Church of Wee Jas operating an organ-donor-like system ("Are you planning on using that body after you die? No resurrection plans?"). Point is, if the people you animate are OK with it, even some good Clerics might accept that.

read the classes entry of HoH, the campaign are for good character and the dread necromancer is planned as a Boss class of the DM (best as normal because going to fight again a party), if you let use a character use a it then he recall the limitation rules of the class, the corruption as described in HoH if you dont cure your own corruption you will become a NPC only a undead of a evil outzider are free of this rule for it the lv 20 of the class transform you to a undead.

the book say to that if you party is a undead or evil-outsider party you can use redeemed score like the corruption score that let a balance to the class.

remember that with the LM a first level character can have infinite cures with the charnel touch and the feat tomb-tainted soul.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
By that logic, you can only ever use the Fighter class to play "The questing knight, the conquering overlord, the king’s champion, the elite foot soldier, the hardened mercenary, and the bandit king". No using Fighter to represent professional bodyguards, wandering weapon masters, marauding Vikings, crowd-pleasing gladiators, or any other archetype ever.

Seriously, Oma, do you know what the word "imply" means? Or what your arguments imply?

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

By that logic, you can only ever use the Fighter class to play "The questing knight, the conquering overlord, the king’s champion, the elite foot soldier, the hardened mercenary, and the bandit king". No using Fighter to represent professional bodyguards, wandering weapon masters, marauding Vikings, crowd-pleasing gladiators, or any other archetype ever.

Seriously, Oma, do you know what the word "imply" means? Or what your arguments imply?

Sorry but as standard the fighter is a PC class that a DMG can use as a NPC with a best CR that normal.

The rules of the HoH not are for evils campaings because any evil character in the game will be a NPC, but as described you can apply it if you like and use the same rules at the reverse (for an undead and/or evil outsider campain immunes to this mitigating factors).

in this way if you are a neutral dread necromancer you fall in tain many times if you dont control yourself (remember that you are always in negative energy and making undeads) and you will suffer the tain a lot, the adventage of the class is decresed in this way because you need stay curing your taint.

this rules apply in the HoH to make the PC dread necromancer more balanced again the other class in the horror adventure like the fighter.

if you going to put the dread necromancer out of the horror adventure then you still need apply this mitigating factor.


again the figther at lv 1 can't waste a feat to gain a infinite cure like this class
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
read the classes entry of HoH, the campaign are for good character and the dread necromancer is planned as a Boss class of the DM (best as normal because going to fight again a party)

1) Dread Necro says nowhere that I can see that it's intended as an NPC class. Could you give a page number or quote?
2) Not all campaigns are for good characters
...any evil character in the game will be a NPC...

2b) What? So evil players don't exist in your world?

the corruption as described in HoH if you dont cure your own corruption you will become a NPC only a undead of a evil outzider are free of this rule for it the lv 20 of the class transform you to a undead.


in this way if you are a neutral dread necromancer you fall in tain many times if you dont control yourself (remember that you are always in negative energy and making undeads) and you will suffer the tain a lot, the adventage of the class is decresed in this way because you need stay curing your taint.

I think I see what you're saying - that a Dread Necro is designed to be used with the Taint rules, and that it will be more powerful without them?

This is not completely wrong, I suppose, but for the fact that Taint is not caused by anything the Dread Necro can do. Just because you are "using negative energy" does not mean you suffer Taint. There is a variant rule which is that Evil spells can cause Taint to the caster, but that harms many evil casters, not just Dread Necros. Even then, you have a Will save and ways of removing taint, so it doesn't make a big difference.

When the Dread Necro reaches L20, he (wlog) becomes Undead. At this point, he gains Taint scores according to Heroes of Horror, yes. However, "Creatures with the Evil subtype and undead creatures are immune to any negative effects from taint". Thus, a L20 Dread Necro will not die, go insane, or become a tainted minion or raver.
read the classes entry of HoH, the campaign are for good character and the dread necromancer is planned as a Boss class of the DM (best as normal because going to fight again a party)

1) Dread Necro says nowhere that I can see that it's intended as an NPC class. Could you give a page number or quote?
2) Not all campaigns are for good characters
...any evil character in the game will be a NPC...

2b) What? So evil players don't exist in your world?

the corruption as described in HoH if you dont cure your own corruption you will become a NPC only a undead of a evil outzider are free of this rule for it the lv 20 of the class transform you to a undead.


in this way if you are a neutral dread necromancer you fall in tain many times if you dont control yourself (remember that you are always in negative energy and making undeads) and you will suffer the tain a lot, the adventage of the class is decresed in this way because you need stay curing your taint.

I think I see what you're saying - that a Dread Necro is designed to be used with the Taint rules, and that it will be more powerful without them?

This is not completely wrong, I suppose, but for the fact that Taint is not caused by anything the Dread Necro can do. Just because you are "using negative energy" does not mean you suffer Taint. There is a variant rule which is that Evil spells can cause Taint to the caster, but that harms many evil casters, not just Dread Necros. Even then, you have a Will save and ways of removing taint, so it doesn't make a big difference.

When the Dread Necro reaches L20, he (wlog) becomes Undead. At this point, he gains Taint scores according to Heroes of Horror, yes. However, "Creatures with the Evil subtype and undead creatures are immune to any negative effects from taint". Thus, a L20 Dread Necro will not die, go insane, or become a tainted minion or raver.

Please first read the book Heroes OF Horror and the special rule adventur.

this campaing say that this will be player for only heroes but in the case of your as DM want play an adventure with Anti-Heroes you will still apply the same rules this means the corruption of a evil character will become it a NPC (the rule of Corruption of a Horror Adventure).

as normal you need be careful if you are a Dread Necromancer because if you don't you can become a NPC for it you become a undead at level 20.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Please first read the book Heroes OF Horror and the special rule adventur.

this campaing say that this will be player for only heroes but in the case of your as DM want play an adventure with Anti-Heroes you will still apply the same rules this means the corruption of a evil character will become it a NPC (the rule of Corruption of a Horror Adventure).

as normal you need be careful if you are a Dread Necromancer because if you don't you can become a NPC for it you become a undead at level 20.



1.  Oma, the book isn't a 'campaing'...it's a rules supplement (like any of the other books that aren't core), as stated on page 4.
2. A character will only become an NPC if its depravity reaches a certain threshold (at 42 for an average character), so you can accrue as much corruption without coming under the control of the DM (you see, taint is split into mental and physical effects, just like the stats).
3.  The stuff in chapter 5 (new classes, prestige classes, feats, spells, artifcts, etc) is designed for antiheroic characters...but that's not to say that it won't work with a heroic character.
4.  Nowhere does it say that, once a dread necromancer becomes a lich, it converts to the DM's control...
Please first read the book Heroes OF Horror and the special rule adventur.

this campaing say that this will be player for only heroes but in the case of your as DM want play an adventure with Anti-Heroes you will still apply the same rules this means the corruption of a evil character will become it a NPC (the rule of Corruption of a Horror Adventure).

as normal you need be careful if you are a Dread Necromancer because if you don't you can become a NPC for it you become a undead at level 20.



1.  Oma, the book isn't a 'campaing'...it's a rules supplement (like any of the other books that aren't core), as stated on page 4.
2. A character will only become an NPC if its depravity reaches a certain threshold (at 42 for an average character), so you can accrue as much corruption without coming under the control of the DM (you see, taint is split into mental and physical effects, just like the stats).
3.  The stuff in chapter 5 (new classes, prestige classes, feats, spells, artifcts, etc) is designed for antiheroic characters...but that's not to say that it won't work with a heroic character.
4.  Nowhere does it say that, once a dread necromancer becomes a lich, it converts to the DM's control...

1- Yes are the rules for do a Horror Campaing as described in the same part.

2- The character become a NPC if her depravity or Corruption reach the body limit as described in the rules, then a evil character always need stay regulating this in all the advenure (mitigating factor) compared with a heroe that take very less corruption and depravity.

3- "The player characters in a horror advenure or campaing might be heroes in the traditional sense of the word: good-aligned characters" "Many of the resources in this chapter new base classes, prestige classes, feats, spells, and artifacts are designed specifically for antiheroic charaters (as well as for villains). Such evil tools always come with a cost, however, and players and DM alike are remided that antiheroes in fiction and cinema rarely escape paying the cost"

4- I never say it, i was saying that at level 20 you will become unded to be free ot the taint but as described if still the class are over the other player classes you as DM can apply redemption as taint for the Dread Necromancer.




Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, and anti-hero does not mean a villain. It means a protagonist (main character) who has a dark streak or makes decisions that could at best be described as "morally grey." A DN that uses undead hordes to fight for good would be the definition of an Anti-hero...
Oma, and anti-hero does not mean a villain. It means a protagonist (main character) who has a dark streak or makes decisions that could at best be described as "morally grey." A DN that uses undead hordes to fight for good would be the definition of an Anti-hero...

Yes and the book say that still have to pay the cost of the evil power despite that are protagonist.

the dread necromancer still are bound to the Taint in any adveture.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Unless the DM doesn't use those rules (which is another discussion) or they don't do things that taint them.

Does it say that creating undead and using negative energy specifically causes them to be tainted? I'm afb right now...
I wouldn't be using the taint rules if I had it in my campaign, but it's likely not going to be in mine so I don't know what that DM will do.
I just looked and it does appear that creating undead is Evil....

HOWEVER, the rules for Tainting are very obviously optional rules. You don't have to use them to play a DN.
I just looked and it does appear that creating undead is Evil....

HOWEVER, the rules for Tainting are very obviously optional rules. You don't have to use them to play a DN.

the DN is a Horror Character if you dont going to apply taint then you will dont let a player use a character balanced with horror rules, is like let some player use a Character of 4.0 because are balanced in 4.0 or use a Starwar Character balanced in Starwar d20 game, if your DM are agree then are ok but as normal the DN are a little more powerful that the normal classes in a world without taint.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Nope. Nowhere in that book does it say that you have to use the Taint rules to play the DN. Also, the DN is a balanced class by itself.
You're feeding a troll, Asteron. Nothing ever seems to convince Oma he's ever got the slightest chance of being wrong, even if he is, in fact, demonstrably wrong. Just report him to customer service (the level above the volunteer moderators), block him, and move along.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

You're probably right, but I guess I suffer from the belief that rationality will eventually win out...

Besides, he apparently walks that fine line between acceptable trolling and unacceptable trolling. I've yet to see a single one of his posts redacted by an ORC...
the DN is a Horror Character if you dont going to apply taint then you will dont let a player use a character balanced with horror rules, is like let some player use a Character of 4.0 because are balanced in 4.0 or use a Starwar Character balanced in Starwar d20 game, if your DM are agree then are ok but as normal the DN are a little more powerful that the normal classes in a world without taint.

From Heroes of Horror, page 4 (bolding mine):

"Both of the new standard classes work fine without the taint rules, and many of the feats, prestige classes, spells, and other mechanical elements do not rely on taint."

The book itself says that it's fine to use the Archivist and Dread Necromancer without taint.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Asteron, trust us on this: rationality only seems to cause Oma confusion and discomfort. That particular troll really is best left unfed.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Actually, I've read every page of every argument that he has extended... mostly for my own entertainment. Which is why I believe that no action will ever be taken against him by the ORCs and the others in charge... He's essentially ruined this part of the forums and nothing is ever said about him.
You're probably right, but I guess I suffer from the belief that rationality will eventually win out... Besides, he apparently walks that fine line between acceptable trolling and unacceptable trolling. I've yet to see a single one of his posts redacted by an ORC...



To be honest that line seems suspect to me. I've be edited by orcs twice if I recall on the op boards, once for simply saying things such as "you are wrong, and are not the arbitrator of what is and isn't a rule" in an argument where a certain someone claimed that the alignment system in D&D was unusable since a line in the book of vile darkness reads something to the effect of "...It is surely an evil act to let a fiend live...".  His argument was that unless everyone didn't make a "suicide run" into the abyss (including level one commoners with no knowledge of planar matters outside of superstition) they where by default evil according to the rules, ergo making the alignment system flawed and unusable.

The person I refer too swore up and down that anyone who contradicted his view on this was not only wrong but lacked the ability to read basic English, made many rude remarks questioning not only mine but Slagger_the_Chull's intelligence, which is what prompted me to say what I did after pointing out for about five post prior that he was quoting a line from a section called "Consorting with fiends", meaning the very line he was referencing was aimed towards people who do just that, consort with fiends, and not everyone in the multivers. In the end he got a temp ban (which he seems to wrack up at least one every three or four days now with no sign of ever getting perma-baned), so my take on it is the orcs simply edit anything that might be seen as remotely antagonistic when said to someone who clearly will make a huff about it.

In the case of oma, I honestly don't see why he hasn't gotten at least a temp ban for spamming, I mean if you look at the two handed weapon thread it has 20+pages, and half way through the first is where oma picks up with such notions as "the faq are rules", "Monkey Grip lets yiou weild a great sword sized for you as a one handed weapon, and one of my favorites "Waforged can gain an inherit template that specifies a linage, such as half dragon/celestial/fiend".

I sometimes wonder is WOTC just invites a little bit of chaos in to keep the boards active.

[END RANT]


I sometimes wonder is WOTC just invites a little bit of chaos in to keep the boards active.




How very ironic. I said that exact sentence to my wife about the troll 3 or 4 days ago, except I think I used the verb "allows" instead of "invites".

GMTA? 
I wonder what would happen if I reported Oma for being a GamerZer0 alt?
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
That's my thoughts as well. If this were GitP, both of them would have been perma-banned already.
If you had a pair of twins separated at birth, is it possible that one of them could gain too much ability to quote sources, while the other could end up with almost none?

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
the DN is a Horror Character if you dont going to apply taint then you will dont let a player use a character balanced with horror rules, is like let some player use a Character of 4.0 because are balanced in 4.0 or use a Starwar Character balanced in Starwar d20 game, if your DM are agree then are ok but as normal the DN are a little more powerful that the normal classes in a world without taint.

From Heroes of Horror, page 4 (bolding mine):

"Both of the new standard classes work fine without the taint rules, and many of the feats, prestige classes, spells, and other mechanical elements do not rely on taint."

The book itself says that it's fine to use the Archivist and Dread Necromancer without taint.

is the same with D20 Modern ¬¬ and other D20 games and not for it you can put in a game, is true the class work fine because are more overpower without this limitation this entry never say that are balanced only that you can play well without this rule.

With the libris mortis the DN become very Broken and mush more if you play with faerun Books.

then you are saying that the DN are balanced vs a healer core class????
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
is the same with D20 Modern ¬¬ and other D20 games and not for it you can put in a game, is true the class work fine because are more overpower without this limitation this entry never say that are balanced only that you can play well without this rule.

If it was badly unbalanced (by being overpowered), it wouldn't be playing well.

How is taint any worse for a dread necromancer than for a necromancer (specialist wizard), or a necromancy-using cleric?
With the libris mortis the DN become very Broken and mush more if you play with faerun Books.

There are "broken" options for pretty much every full spellcaster in that regard.  The dread necromancer doesn't have any special advantages there.
then you are saying that the DN are balanced vs a healer core class????

Are you saying the dread necromancer is better than the cleric?

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
is the same with D20 Modern ¬¬ and other D20 games and not for it you can put in a game, is true the class work fine because are more overpower without this limitation this entry never say that are balanced only that you can play well without this rule.

If it was badly unbalanced (by being overpowered), it wouldn't be playing well.

How is taint any worse for a dread necromancer than for a necromancer (specialist wizard), or a necromancy-using cleric?
With the libris mortis the DN become very Broken and mush more if you play with faerun Books.

There are "broken" options for pretty much every full spellcaster in that regard.  The dread necromancer doesn't have any special advantages there.
then you are saying that the DN are balanced vs a healer core class????

Are you saying the dread necromancer is better than the cleric?

1- For D&D you can play well with a healer and this not means that are balanced.

2- Yes the infinite cure with a single feat (only yourself and others undeads or other players with the feat) at lv 1.

3- Yes, the DN maybe can't cure but can use many necromancer spells that help other character to dont die and if thats player can be cured with negative energy then is mush more better that a cleric, and starting Lv 4 can gain spell that defeated character with a single blow like a cleric level 3 but with mush more spells and the DN have a lot of Class feature more that the Cleric.

Is like a Sorserer with the same amount of Class feature that a monk VS a Wizard without Bonus feats.

and the DN are arcane is like a overpower evil Sorcerer with access to the divine necromancy spells.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Unless everyone has negative energy healing (i.e. a party of Necropolitans or everyone grabs Tomb-Tainted Soul), a dread necromancer will not be an amazing party healer. In that specific niche scenario, you would expect a necromancer to outdo a typical medic who focuses on the living. I've seen one low-level dread necromancer healer (specifically, an azurin with his two feats spent on Tomb-Tainted Soul and Shape Soulmeld: Lifebond Vestments - he could heal any amount of damage on himself and a whopping 6 hit points per hour on each of his living companions), and that isn't terribly gamebreaking.

Recall, of course, that low level characters have a hard time breaking 30 hit points or so (I'm talking dwarf barbarian here - d12 HD and 16 Constitution only hits 33hp at level 3!), and dread necromancers aren't terribly durable (d6 HD, so even assuming a +1 Constitution bonus, your HP curve will look like 7, 11, 16 for the first few levels). It's not hard to dish out more damage than that from low levels (a single Scorching Ray at level 3 can dish out 14 damage on average in one casting without any extra modification, and a trivially-built NPC Warrior (yes, the warrior class, with NPC-level equipment) can expect to deal 16 damage at that level using Power Attack). The ability to heal... yourself alone... slowly... outside of combat... doesn't break anything. Particularly because level 2-3 parties without dread necromancers can easily budget for a wand of Lesser Vigor, a wand of Cure Light Wounds, or a healing belt (as these benefit the entire party, they can easily be cost-shared: it's less than 200gp each in a four-person party, or exactly 150gp in a five-person party, assuming you aren't actually creating the item yourself (a healing belt can be crafted at level 3 in a day, while the wands need to wait until level 5)) - in effect, every party with half a lick of sense should have quite a lot of out-of-combat healing on the cheap from a low level. All the dread necromancer does in this case is carry his own weight on that front - by spending a feat instead of a couple hundred GP.

(The dread necromancer has three nice things going for it in terms of the actual ability to survive these hits, but all are double-edged swords. The first is that it's got d6 HD, while most other full spellcasters have d4. Drawback: Its spellcasting isn't terribly powerful at low levels. Second, it has a fear aura, so melee has trouble hitting it. Drawback: 5' radius, so it won't work except against melee, and reach weapons can ignore it. Third, it gets a small DR/bludgeoning and magic early on. Drawback: Again, this only works against weapons, and the DR isn't significant enough to block anything except nonmagical arrows. Basically you get a teensy bit of protection against slashing or piercing warriors who don't use reach weapons, and you have Improved Toughness relative to a wizard. A tank this does not make you. Indeed, as a spellcaster - particularly with Spectral Hand online - you have plenty of incentive to hang back - you're not the one who should be putting his HP on the line for the party's safety. Your defenses and healing ability basically let you recover any stray shots that come your way - assuming your tanks aren't doing their job. And speaking of tanks, you know, necromancer - why aren't you summoning walls of the undead?)

Oma also clearly has no idea what he's talking about if he thinks the dread necromancer's spellcasting is overpowered. (Not only does he not have access to the divine necromancy spells - a cleric with the Deathbound domain is nearly as good an undead commander while still having better spellcasting - but what's more important is that the dread necromancer lacks key sorcerer/wizard spells. And without an easy way to expand the list outside of necromancy, he can't even pick up a staff the way a sorcerer can.) Seriously, the dread necromancer, like the beguiler, is pretty strongly a Tier Three spellcaster.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.


1- the DN can cure infinite times per day at level 1 unlike the other classes then he can make more battles per day that a normal character because at level 1 the HP is always a limite because the cure resources are very limited and still in a party when he are the only one that cure with negative energy he dont need the cures and this help the other members of the party.

2/3- First the DN not is a melee character for it her HD, now comparing it to a sorserer the DN have better skill options, have mush more Class features, have better Hit Dice and with a trick can cure herself a lot, now again the barbarian, he gain DR 1/- at level 7 while the DN a non combat class gain 4/Bludgeoning and magic that start at level 2 with 2/ Bludgeoning and magic and in this level no one use magic weapons as normal and this DR are the best for a non melee character and still in melee a DN with intimidate can use her Fear aura as free action and then use her Intimidate check to make the opponent fall in the Frightened condition (automatic win for the opponent flee unless you stop her escape).

4- OK a cleric with this domain control at level 10 40 HDs of undead at max and can create in a single spell 30 while a DN at level 10 can control 40 Hds of undead pluss her Cha X her level as example a DN with 18 of cha at level 10 can control 80 HDS of undeads and can create in a single spell 20 Hds (but still he can gain this abilitie with others methods), and about spell remember the feat EXTRA SPELL.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
It's so entertaining watching Oma try to school... well, pretty much anybody, but especially people like Tempest & Slagger. I can picture them doing a Picard double facepalm, while Oma's frothing at the mouth because THEY JUST DON'T GET IT!1!
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Oma, just stop it. The dread necromancer is not a broken class with or without the rules for taint. Not only have I built a few, I've seen them played first hand and though effective at what they do, what they do is very narrow. They don't even get the ability to animate dead (their key focus until level six if I recall? Their ability to "heal infinitely" at level one is not game breaking in the least since unless everyone in the party decided to take tomb tainted soul only the DN can "keep going", good luck at that, "hey everybody, I'm going to go solo this dungeon with my 7-15 hp and DR 2/ B-M because this make me invincible!", ya, no. A warmage with a few well placed magic missiles/ lesser orbs of whatever could kill a dread necromancer in these level, and warmage is nowhere near a broken class (and some would say it's underpowered). 

The dread necromancer is a neat class if you want to go for a lord of the undead route later in levels, but all in all without the backup of undead hordes and supporting party members he doesn't make an efficient soloist, maybe if he's a few levels higher than the party and has a few good (undead) men behind him he could make a decent BBEG, perhaps teamed up with a hexblade for debuff/ melee support and a duskblade for blasting/ melee support, but otherwise the DN is as tempest said, generally a tier 3 class (possibly a tier 2 with a lot of work and some ingenuity).

As a final note, considering that a person playing a dread necro can become a necropolitan at around level 4 or so your also arguing that by takeing a feat that they most likely will not be able to retrain at first level makes them broken when they can achieve the same effect in about three levels of patience.
Oma, just stop it. The dread necromancer is not a broken class with or without the rules for taint. Not only have I built a few, I've seen them played first hand and though effective at what they do, what they do is very narrow. They don't even get the ability to animate dead (their key focus until level six if I recall? Their ability to "heal infinitely" at level one is not game breaking in the least since unless everyone in the party decided to take tomb tainted soul only the DN can "keep going", good luck at that, "hey everybody, I'm going to go solo this dungeon with my 7-15 hp and DR 2/ B-M because this make me invincible!", ya, no. A warmage with a few well placed magic missiles/ lesser orbs of whatever could kill a dread necromancer in these level, and warmage is nowhere near a broken class (and some would say it's underpowered). 

The dread necromancer is a neat class if you want to go for a lord of the undead route later in levels, but all in all without the backup of undead hordes and supporting party members he doesn't make an efficient soloist, maybe if he's a few levels higher than the party and has a few good (undead) men behind him he could make a decent BBEG, perhaps teamed up with a hexblade for debuff/ melee support and a duskblade for blasting/ melee support, but otherwise the DN is as tempest said, generally a tier 3 class (possibly a tier 2 with a lot of work and some ingenuity).

As a final note, considering that a person playing a dread necro can become a necropolitan at around level 4 or so your also arguing that by takeing a feat that they most likely will not be able to retrain at first level makes them broken when they can achieve the same effect in about three levels of patience.

1- the warmage can kill itself too, can kill other low level character but still can't survive like a DN because the DN have a lot of more resources, and what is the level of your WM to deal 19 damage with a single magic missile (1d4+1+1d4+1+2)=9 average MAX EPOWER are 16 still you can't kill the DN

2- The only weakness of the DN are the constructs because are immunes to her spells but still it have a little support spells to fight agains hims, and if you are talking about "tier" then you are talking about unbalance
 
3- you know the cost of be a Necropolitan????? ONE LEVEL.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
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