Crowdsourcing my daughter's birthday present: B/U Zombies

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My daughter's birthday is on January 26. She loves browsing Gatherer before going to school, and must have found something, because she's asked me to build her a B/U zombie deck. However, I only started playing more seriously when Magic 2013 came out and I'm not that familiar with the Innistrad block, except as I am catching up. Moreover, I am not at all familiar with whatever it was that rotated out before that, which made the B/U Zombie archetype go away. So I don't really know what the B/U Zombie deck consisted of and what is supposed to make it tick.

For now, this will just be a deck we will play at home, but I decided to post in the Standard forum instead of Casual, because I'm hoping with Dimir there will eventually be options to take this deck to FNM. For this reason, I'm keeping it Standard legal.

So here is the beginning:

Creature (26)


Other (10)
[deck]2 Ghoulcaller's Chant
4 Bone Splinters
4 Tragic Slip[/deck]

Land (24)
[deck]4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Watery Grave
14x Swamp
2x Island[/deck]

Here are some other cards available:

Endless Ranks of the Dead
Havengul Lich
Havengul Runebinder
Unbreathing Horde
Zombie Apocalypse

So where can we take this to its max potential given the current limitation of what is in Standard? Is there another archetype using Havengul Lich that would work better?
As of right now Watery Grave is not standard. 

As for the deck it looks pretty decent, RB is typically the stronger version but this can work too. I'd replace the drake with Rakdos Cackler

Probably want 4 Bump in the night

24 lands is a tad much, I'd run 22 or 23 at the most. Maybe take the extra land and the chants and replace with either Vile Rebirth Killing Wave Havengul Runebinder or preferably a comination of the 3.

As for the Lich decks see Heartless Summoning decks. He's normally used in pseudo-combo decks 

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg)

UB zombies isn't really constructed viable probably, things like knight of glory, thragtusk and rhox faithmender really kill the deck before you can do anything about it, also terminus is the bane of this deck, if they get one of those off theres almost no way to recover.

I would suggest adding altar's reap you can swing with a gravecrawler then sac him for some card draw, works great in a deck like this; sign in blood is another option, your probably going to be netting life with blood artist so adding some draw to the mix probably won hurt that much.

I know hes not a zombie, but I would consider adding desecration demon hes above the curve as a 6/6 for 4mana, but more importantly he has flying so he wont get chump blocked by mana dorks, they might sac to keep him tapped, but a with blood artist your going to hurt them for 1 damage at the very least, and they arn't going to be able to keep him down forever, eventually he will be able to wail on them.

I wouldn't suggest running bone splinters normally, but with the horrible kill spells at our disposal these days, in this type of deck it might work, I wouldn't suggest running 4 of them though, your going to want some instant kill spells as well, something like ultimate price or victim of night. I would also consider running peel from reality or unsummon, forcing them to unsummon one of their creatures can really hurt sometimes plus taking a geralf's messenger back to your hand after it died once would really hurt the enemy.

as mentioned earlier, a terminus from the enemy can be the bane of this deck, which is why I would suggest adding a few negates to the sideboard, I would also suggest adding some essence scatter to take out some of those problematic knight of glory, thragtusk and rhox faithmenders. 

probably the last thing I would suggest is getting another sac outlet for this deck, being able to activate blood artist's ability on will is what makes the deck hurt later in the game, I would suggest adding bloodthrone vampire, bloodflow connoisseur, Stitcher's Apprentice or demonic taskmaster; ya demonic taskmaster's ability can't be activated on will but he has flying which can be useful, I like Stitcher's Apprentice because his ability is worded in such a way that you can make the token, then sacrifice the token all for 2 mana, basically he reads activate morbid effects for 2 mana. The best sac outlet is probably bloodthrone vampire she gets a lot for your sacrifice and her ability can be used as a combat trick on top of all that she only costs is 2 mana, if you want to permanently buff your guy bloodflow connoisseur is better, she doesn't pump as fast as bloodthrone vampire but she stay pumped up.
As of right now Watery Grave is not standard.

You are absolutely right, but it becomes standard five days after her birthday, so I put it in for now. 

As for the deck it looks pretty decent, RB is typically the stronger version but this can work too. I'd replace the drake with Rakdos Cackler. Probably want 4 Bump in the night.

The cackler is more aggro, but feels out of place because of the creature type doesn't generate some of the synergies. I will add upping to 4x Bump in the Night to the suggested list of changes. Wait, Bump in the Night flashbacks with red mana...do I want this in B/U zombies?

23 at the most. Maybe take the extra land and the chants and replace with either Vile Rebirth Killing Wave Havengul Runebinder or preferably a comination of the 3.

I really like Vile Rebirth and Killing Wave. I'm a little bit concerned about having too many effects that look that exile from my graveyard, but if I can go into my opponent's graveyard that adds considerable value and flexibility.

As for the Lich decks see Heartless Summoning decks. He's normally used in pseudo-combo decks 

Will do, thank you!

UB zombies isn't really constructed viable probably, things like knight of glory, thragtusk and rhox faithmender really kill the deck before you can do anything about it, also terminus is the bane of this deck, if they get one of those off theres almost no way to recover.

Yes, I understand it is not a competive choice, but maybe it will be more so when Gatecrash rolls around, maybe not. For now it's just for play at home. Oddly, I never see Terminus at my local store.

I would suggest adding altar's reap you can swing with a gravecrawler then sac him for some card draw, works great in a deck like this; sign in blood is another option, your probably going to be netting life with blood artist so adding some draw to the mix probably won hurt that much.

I will consider adding card draw.

I know hes not a zombie, but I would consider adding desecration demon hes above the curve as a 6/6 for 4mana, but more importantly he has flying so he wont get chump blocked by mana dorks, they might sac to keep him tapped, but a with blood artist your going to hurt them for 1 damage at the very least, and they arn't going to be able to keep him down forever, eventually he will be able to wail on them.

I like it, and it will work well with Vile Rebirth.

I wouldn't suggest running bone splinters normally, but with the horrible kill spells at our disposal these days, in this type of deck it might work, I wouldn't suggest running 4 of them though, your going to want some instant kill spells as well, something like ultimate price or victim of night.

I use Victim of Night a lot in other black decks; I will fine tune the removal spells during play testing.

I would also consider running peel from reality or unsummon, forcing them to unsummon one of their creatures can really hurt sometimes plus taking a geralf's messenger back to your hand after it died once would really hurt the enemy.

Peel from Reality seems to work well with Geralf's Messenge, but not so well with some of the other creatures, so I'm not sure I'll have enough cards on the board that I'll want to return to my hand. I will look at Unsummon, however. It does seem I'm not making enough use of blue.

as mentioned earlier, a terminus from the enemy can be the bane of this deck, which is why I would suggest adding a few negates to the sideboard, I would also suggest adding some essence scatter to take out some of those problematic knight of glory, thragtusk and rhox faithmenders.

I haven't even thought about the sideboard yet, but 3x or 4x Negate and Essence Scatter sound like a great start, plus maybe Knight of Infamy

probably the last thing I would suggest is getting another sac outlet for this deck, being able to activate blood artist's ability on will is what makes the deck hurt later in the game, I would suggest adding bloodthrone vampire, bloodflow connoisseur, Stitcher's Apprentice or demonic taskmaster

I like Stitcher's Apprentice: I wasn't even aware of that card. It adds a lot of flexibility and makes the Tragic Slip that much more powerful. In fact, it makes me want to look for more cards with the morbid keyword.

Thank you very much for the suggestions!

Zombies is THE aggro deck right now, just normally as a RB build. Cackler gives you a 3rd 2power 2drop and it really just adds a lot of pressure, which is what zombies do best. It doesn't bring your crawler back but that's okay.

As for bump in the night it isn't flashed back too often in the builds that use it, even when they do have access to the R. It's pretty much just 3 to the face most the time, which is never bad for an aggro deck.

The midrangey idea is a little more difficult to pull off mostly because other midrange decks will just go over you and if you can't hit the army of the damned you rarely snag the win. But for more casual play it's perfectly fine. 

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg)

It's quite possible that Zombies will be viable after Gatecrash. Of course, you'll have $300 in the mana base, but hey, in for a penny. . .

The five-drop dude seems like a stretch for a Zombie deck and Zombies often run Diregraf Captain.
It's quite possible that Zombies will be viable after Gatecrash. Of course, you'll have $300 in the mana base, but hey, in for a penny. . .

The five-drop dude seems like a stretch for a Zombie deck and Zombies often run Diregraf Captain.



Possible? sure. Super competitive? Probably not. I find it unlikely that dimir will get a super aggro zombie-ish creature.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg)

It's quite possible that Zombies will be viable after Gatecrash. Of course, you'll have $300 in the mana base, but hey, in for a penny. . .



Possible? sure. Super competitive? Probably not. I find it unlikely that dimir will get a super aggro zombie-ish creature.



What's needed is the mana to make it work, the creatures are here already. The standard Zombies plus stuff like the Captain and the popular stuff like Falkenrath Aristocrat are pretty good.

In additon to the land, Gatecrash might provide some useful spells.

If it works out, you heard it here first.

If it doesn't, c'est la vie.

It's quite possible that Zombies will be viable after Gatecrash. Of course, you'll have $300 in the mana base, but hey, in for a penny. . .

I'll have the full mana base. We already have a full playset except the Gatecrash shocklands. I sort of view the dual-colored mana as the entry price for playing Magic today, like it or not... I'm just hoping the M13 and Innistrad block lands get reprinted in M14 and/oror the subsequent block.

The five-drop dude seems like a stretch for a Zombie deck and Zombies often run Diregraf Captain.

Duly noted on the 5-mana drop. Maybe we'll make him a 1x of. Diregraf Captain is in the deck, second card listed.

Highly doubt the mana base will be $300 seeing that all of the current print shocks are like 10-12. You could easily reach that price if you only go for originals though. 

What's the role of Nephalia Drownyard here, is it to self-mill?

Highly doubt the mana base will be $300 seeing that all of the current print shocks are like 10-12. You could easily reach that price if you only go for originals though. 

I'm seeing shocklands for $11-$14, depending on color, the Innistrad block lands for $7-9, and the M13 ones for about $3. I think the Gatecrash lands will start at around $15 initially, so a full playset would be something like 20 x $12.50 + 20 x $8 + 20 x $3 + 20 x $15 = $770...

Maybe I should have picked a different game for my hobby.  
Highly doubt the mana base will be $300 seeing that all of the current print shocks are like 10-12. You could easily reach that price if you only go for originals though. 

I'm seeing shocklands for $11-$14, depending on color, the Innistrad block lands for $7-9, and the M13 ones for about $3. I think the Gatecrash lands will start at around $15 initially, so a full playset would be something like 20 x $12.50 + 20 x $8 + 20 x $3 + 20 x $15 = $770...

Maybe I should have picked a different game for my hobby.  


Yeah, I have playsets of all the lands but if you have one deck you don't need them. Like in one deck if you run the rull set of shock lands in three colors you're using 12. That means you're not going to play all of the buddy lands and possibly some utility or even a number of basics based on what you're playing. Yeah, if you want to play every deck in the format it's going to be a lot of money. 
Lol no, only scrubs self-mill. Milling, for whatever reason, SAVAGELY puts casuals off their game like you couldn't believe. If you end up with extra mana, why not tilt your opponent a little? It doesn't really interfere with the mana base and if all else fails, is a bonus win con (if you end up not being able to chain Gravecrawler, Blood Artist and Diregraf Captain for whatever reason).
Highly doubt the mana base will be $300 seeing that all of the current print shocks are like 10-12. You could easily reach that price if you only go for originals though. 



A three-color deck can rack up a pretty hefty price for lands. Especially a tribal deck because why wouldn't Cavern of Souls be included?

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" /> Diregraf Captain is in the deck, second card listed.




Doh! And I double-checked! I still missed it.

Yeah, I have playsets of all the lands but if you have one deck you don't need them. Like in one deck if you run the rull set of shock lands in three colors you're using 12. That means you're not going to play all of the buddy lands and possibly some utility or even a number of basics based on what you're playing. Yeah, if you want to play every deck in the format it's going to be a lot of money. 

We usually have about 8-10 standard decks built up at any one point in time, which is why I invested in a full playset. If we need the same two colors in two different decks though, I use proxies.

Lol no, only scrubs self-mill. Milling, for whatever reason, SAVAGELY puts casuals off their game like you couldn't believe. If you end up with extra mana, why not tilt your opponent a little?

I'm with you now – thank you for the explanation (I'm still an intermediate player, with much to learn). Well, it's cheap enough, so I will definitely throw that in there. I do like the idea of always having something to do with extra mana.

Highly doubt the mana base will be $300 seeing that all of the current print shocks are like 10-12. You could easily reach that price if you only go for originals though. 



A three-color deck can rack up a pretty hefty price for lands. Especially a tribal deck because why wouldn't Cavern of Souls be included?



The other lands are more constantly useful than Cavern which is a meta dependent card. However, investing into lands might take a lot of money but it'll be worth it. Most of them are relevant in Modern too. Yeah, it sucks but I know a lot of people who invested in all of the shocks from original Ravnica and never got rid of them and now they're sitting pretty well not having to get them again. If you plan on being in Magic for the long haul I'd say go for them. Cavern too because that's important in other formats too. 
Im with pzbw7z here; Cavern of Souls is a must; and i also agree that decks that run Artist and Captn should have a sac outlet; too bad that Mortarpod's gone...
Im with pzbw7z here; Cavern of Souls is a must; and i also agree that decks that run Artist and Captn should have a sac outlet; too bad that Mortarpod's gone...

The discussion of the mana base has branched off a bit from the original topic, but I do have a related question. Should I run 2x Cavern of Souls in this deck? As a follow-up question, should I do so even if I run 2x Nephalia Drownyard? (and if not, which would I get more value out of?).

So here is an update. Note however, that I have 64 cards and need to cut 4. I'm very much open to suggestions on what to cut out?

This also includes my first attempt at a sideboard. I really play exclusively B/W and G/W, so I'm not as familiar with what to sideboard in. Advice here would be gratefully accepted.

Creature (27)


Other (14)
[deck]2 Bone Splinters
2 Killing Wave
4 Tragic Slip
2 Ultimate Price
4 Vile Rebirth[/deck]

Land (23)
[deck]4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Watery Grave
12x Swamp
2x Nephalia Drownyard
1x Island[/deck]

Sideboard (15)
[deck]3 Disciple of Bolas
3 Essence Scatter
4 Knight of Infamy
3 Negate
2 Sever the Bloodlines[/deck]

I'm open to more feedback: Hopefully this version is stronger than the first (if not, I'm going in the wrong direction).

Missing is any kind of card draw and any kind of unsummon. Are Altar's Reap and/or Peel from Reality strong enough that I should put them into the deck and take something else out? 
Bloodthrone Vampire is a useful card in mixed Zombie-Vampire builds. I think I'd run that instead of the Stitcher-thing.

I don't see much point in Peel from Reality except maybe to bounce Messenger. Otherwise, Unsummon is just better. Of course, with at hand, why bounce creatures when you can just kill them?

A Tribute to Hunger is useful - if only for the side-board, especially if GoST or Invisible Stalker hangs out in your neighborhood.
if you want something that has a good morbidity effect I would suggest adding skirsdag high priest if something dies just tap him and 2 other guys and you've got a 5/5 flying demon, its also fun as a combat trick lol; fun fact, when activating his effect it doesn't matter if the targets have summoning sickness or not, so you can have him on the field, have something die then summon 2 gravecrawlers and tap them all to make a 5/5 demon. I also wouldn't run 4 stitcher's apprentice, I love his effect its pretty nice swinging with a geralf's messenger hitting them for 3 then sacing it to make a 2/2, have him come back as a 4/3 and doing 2 damage, but 4 of him is probably too many, I would bring it down to 2 or maybe 3. I would suggest putting in some copies of the new pongify they're printing in GTC, Rapid Hybridization, it's basically a sac outlet + 3/3 ape or kill spell for when you face something big or troublesome.
We have arrived at the classical problem in Magic: There are simply too many good cards to choose from.

I already have four cards too many, and a case has been made for adding, let's say, 2x Skirsdag High Priest and and 4x Bloodthrone Vampire. Even I cut Stitcher's Apprentice back to two, that would be 8 cards that have to be cut back.

I'm taking out Killing Wave. I didn't realize it applied to each player: It seems like it could be too situational. So that's 6 cards to cut. I'm thinking I need more sacrificing ability, more than I need Skirdsag High Priest's admittedly amazing token generating trick, so let's say 4x Bloodthrone Vampire. That still means 4 cards to cut back from this list:

Creature (29)


Other (12)
[deck]2 Bone Splinters
4 Tragic Slip
2 Ultimate Price
4 Vile Rebirth[/deck]

Land (23)
[deck]4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Watery Grave
12x Swamp
2x Nephalia Drownyard
1x Island[/deck]

Sideboard (15)
[deck]3 Disciple of Bolas
3 Essence Scatter
4 Knight of Infamy
3 Negate
2 Sever the Bloodline[/deck]

I'm sure Gatecrash will bring all sorts of new good stuff: Once we're happy with the pre-Gatecrash build, I will come back and do a post-Gatecrash update.
So, does your daughter have a prefered playstyle (aggro, combo, control ?). Aggro is likely the most consistent, but is a fair bit weaker than its red counterpart.

Control with geralf's messenger and gravecrawler as difficult to remove win cons can be reasonable, but blue relies on counters which is shut down by cavern.

For combo... there is rooftop storm. Considering grimgrin and bloodthrone vampire and diregraf captain are already in the deck, this is basically a grindy version of U/B zombies with 2-3 rooftop storm, and maybe 1-2 increasing ambition and 2-4 forbidden alchemy.

Personally, I think the combo version is the most 'fun'.



Forbidden alchemy bins a lot of cards, which can be recovered via chant. This gives the deck a lot of late game staying power against control. Ambition can fetch either rooftop or go find missing combo pieces.

Anyways this deck is a lot of fun and a bit 'different', my personal favorite direction to go with U/B zombies.

Edit: The combo is easily sided out, and you can transform into a traditional aggro deck as needed.

Edit2: In case you havent heard of it: sac outlet (either bloodthrone or grimgrin) + rooftop + gravecrawler + life drain (either artist or diregraf captain) is 'infinite' damage. Since some of the combo pieces are redundant, and you dont even need crawler in your hand, and can get back both a ghoul and a grimgrin with a single ghoulcaller's chant. With ambition, you effectively have 4 rooftops, but dont draw unneccesary multiple copies. Turn 3: alchemy Turn 4: snapcast a ghoulcallers chant, slip, turn 5: ambition, turn 6: rooftop, cast all combo pieces for free, win, is a fun line. Doesnt care how many thragtusk or millions of life from sphinx's revelation the opponent has. This can be especially effective against players that go all-in on lifegain against decks they percieve as 'aggro'.
2nd vote for Rootop Combo.
Third vote for Rooftop Storm! You should replace Geralf's Messenger with Search the City while you're at it.
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In case it's not obvious, please don't do either of these things, they're equally (not at all) valid.
i think the storms method could work, probably not as consitantly though, it would be more fun probably lol.

if you want to cut some cards I would look at vile rebirth, theres probably too many of them in the deck right now I would consider just 2 of them and I would also cut down on the lands for the final 2 cards, your highest mana costed creature is 4 mana, you can live with 21 lands, I would cut 2 swamps.
I run a crazy-aggressive sligh curve with my Zombies and would never drop below 22 land.
I have really bad/good luck with lands, I normally play decks with 2 or 3 lands lower than it should be and get more lands then control decks.... although I don't see 21 lands being too low for this deck, thats the normal amount for other aggro decks in the format, RDW has been known to go with 20 or 19 lands before, 21 is the norm by my understanding.
So, does your daughter have a prefered playstyle (aggro, combo, control ?).

A very valid question. First off, she'll be turning nine, but she has, in my opinion, a real knack for Magic. In particular, after she's seen a card a couple of times she has a near-perfect memory of what the cards do that I am completely envious of. She prefers playing aggro or midrange aggro. I would say the three decks she enjoys the most right now are a midrange aggro Selesnya deck, the Creep and Conquer RTR event deck, and a simple, straightforward B/W exalted deck. She can handle the mechnics of all those decks, but I think control would be out her league and not as interesting to her. She's also shown no interest in red. She also has a modified version of the Nissa Revane Ears of the Elves deck that she enjoys. It's not Standard-legal obviously, but it should give you a flavor of what parts of the game she likes.

Aggro is likely the most consistent, but is a fair bit weaker than its red counterpart.

I think a consisently performing aggro deck is the way to go for now. It doesn't have to be as good as the B/R counterpart. If it can beat some of the decks listed above from time to time, she'll have fun with it. Then, if post-Gatecrash, this deck can be made FNM-worthy, I may take it out for a spin.

Anyways this deck is a lot of fun and a bit 'different', my personal favorite direction to go with U/B zombies.

I really like the idea, especially the notion of throwing surprises at the opponent's thinking. I'm going to come back to this, but probably as the second iteration of the deck.
I have really bad/good luck with lands, I normally play decks with 2 or 3 lands lower than it should be and get more lands then control decks.... although I don't see 21 lands being too low for this deck, thats the normal amount for other aggro decks in the format, RDW has been known to go with 20 or 19 lands before, 21 is the norm by my understanding.

I don't know how people do it, but every time I build an aggro deck and cut back lands, I end up mulliganing like crazy and always feel like I'm a land short. I'll be willing to try for 22: This is simething like an average CMC = 1.85 deck, so that it is pretty aggressive.

Update version back to 60 cards.

-1 Desecration Demon
-2 Vile Rebirth
-1 Swamp

Creature (28)


Other (10)
[deck]2 Bone Splinters
4 Tragic Slip
2 Ultimate Price
2 Vile Rebirth[/deck]

Land (22)
[deck]4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Watery Grave
11x Swamp
2x Nephalia Drownyard
1x Island[/deck]

Sideboard (15)
[deck]3 Disciple of Bolas
3 Essence Scatter
4 Knight of Infamy
3 Negate
2 Sever the Bloodline[/deck]

If mana turns out to be a problem then Vile Rebirth may have to go. 
Why not wait until gatecrash is fully spoiled, so that you know all of your options?

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

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139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
Why not wait until gatecrash is fully spoiled, so that you know all of your options?

Because her birthday is Jan. 26th and I need about a week prior to that to get the cards and put the deck together. Don't forget that this will start out as a deck to play at home: She doesn't play store events, but I've taken one of her decks to FNM once and may do the same with this one if it turns out to be something post-Gatecrash. That's why I want to keep it Standard-legal and why I decided to post here insteda of in the casual deck forum.

I still think that those drownyards should be caverns; drownyards dont really go according to the intended game plan, while the caverns do and theyre all-stars against control.
Realistically, very little relevant will probably appear in Gatecrash aside from Watery Grave, short of a cheaper Clone effect (which I don't see happenig anyway). I'd kind of want to try Grixis zombies (Aristocrat + burn + Captain pump) but I have a feeling it would be a mess, moreso than Jund.
I still think that those drownyards should be caverns; drownyards dont really go according to the intended game plan, while the caverns do and theyre all-stars against control.

I have both, so I can swap as necessary after play testing. Fwiw, my meta seems to have very little control. I don't I've ever had a creature spell countered, for example. But Cavern of Soul may help mana fixing for Geralf's Messenger and Diregraf Captain.

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