Fighters with Deflect in newest packet.

Any reason for a fighter to take the deflect feat?
They get Parry as a class feature.
One can remove all damage sometimes & one can halve the damage all the time.
Is there a mathematical advantage to using one over the other?
And is there any reason to have both as options?
Viva La "what ever version of D&D you are playing right now!"
Any reason for a fighter to take the deflect feat?
They get Parry as a class feature.
One can remove all damage sometimes & one can halve the damage all the time.
Is there a mathematical advantage to using one over the other?
And is there any reason to have both as options?


think of it as set number over rolling. higher potential output in rolling but also a chance of getting a worse result
Yes.
Now can you think of why one would want to take both?
If you could choose between the two, then there might be a reason to take one or the other, but as it stands, you already get Parry for free, why spend a feat on Deflect?
Viva La "what ever version of D&D you are playing right now!"
Yes. Now can you think of why one would want to take both? If you could choose between the two, then there might be a reason to take one or the other, but as it stands, you already get Parry for free, why spend a feat on Deflect?


why have a  wizard use a feat for two more cantrips? more options

the two functions can give two different results.

parry has a chance of only deflecting 7 damage at 11th level.
where as half damage is, well half damage
I see Deflect as the "non-fighter" version of Parry. A fighter could certainly take it, but it seems like the only ones who would regularly use it would be TWF folks and others who regularly wielded a light weapon as required by the feat.

Speaking of... a cestus is listed as a light weapon but an unarmed strike is not? I was considering taking Deflect for a Monk but realized it didn't interact with unarmed strike/Way of the Fist. 
I see Deflect as the "non-fighter" version of Parry. A fighter could certainly take it, but it seems like the only ones who would regularly use it would be TWF folks and others who regularly wielded a light weapon as required by the feat.

Speaking of... a cestus is listed as a light weapon but an unarmed strike is not? I was considering taking Deflect for a Monk but realized it didn't interact with unarmed strike/Way of the Fist. 


i would love to see you deflect a great axe with your fist
Intercept the haft of the axe with your hand.
Or clap the blade between your hands.
Or block the attacker's arm.
Or re-flavor the maneuver into a dodge, and sidestep it, or leap over it, or duck it.
I see Deflect as the "non-fighter" version of Parry. A fighter could certainly take it, but it seems like the only ones who would regularly use it would be TWF folks and others who regularly wielded a light weapon as required by the feat.

Speaking of... a cestus is listed as a light weapon but an unarmed strike is not? I was considering taking Deflect for a Monk but realized it didn't interact with unarmed strike/Way of the Fist. 


i would love to see you deflect a great axe with your fist

Why is an open hand parry questioned when a monk can use that same hand to punch through walls and shoot fire and wind out of them?

i would love to see you deflect a great axe with your fist


Monks have always been able to do stupid things with their fists. Considering the feat requires a light weapon to work, I don't think they imagine you catching the other weapon directly.
why did you all assume i was meaning that negatively?

i meant i would love to see it
why did you all assume i was meaning that negatively?

i meant i would love to see it

Sorry then. I'd expect to see an Smile or "!" on a possitive post. Without them, it seemed/felt negitive.

why did you all assume i was meaning that negatively?

i meant i would love to see it

Sorry then. I'd expect to see an Smile or "!" on a possitive post. Without them, it seemed/felt negitive.



its not healthy to default to a negative standpoint :P
why did you all assume i was meaning that negatively?

i meant i would love to see it

Sorry then. I'd expect to see an Smile or "!" on a possitive post. Without them, it seemed/felt negitive.



its not healthy to default to a negative standpoint :P

How long have you been on these boards again? Tongue Out

I hope for the best but expect the worst. 

why did you all assume i was meaning that negatively?

i meant i would love to see it

Sorry then. I'd expect to see an Smile or "!" on a possitive post. Without them, it seemed/felt negitive.



its not healthy to default to a negative standpoint :P

How long have you been on these boards again? Tongue Out

I hope for the best but expect the worst. 



i know that feeling -_-
Ok, follow-up question.
If it is the same but different for a fighter, should it be changed?
My fighter used Parry every time.
Should a Fighter get a choice at character creation to choose between the two?

For those mathematically minded, can someone give me a break down of when using one is better than the other?
Viva La "what ever version of D&D you are playing right now!"
why did you all assume i was meaning that negatively?

i meant i would love to see it

Sorry then. I'd expect to see an Smile or "!" on a possitive post. Without them, it seemed/felt negitive.



its not healthy to default to a negative standpoint :P


Welcome to Humanity.
It's a function of MDD, Skill Dice, and Incoming Damage. Here's a chart with the average amount of damage mitigated from level 1-17. The ability really gets no better than that afterward.

Level   MDD   Skill Die   Total
1         3.5     2.5           6
2         3.5     3.5           7
3         7        3.5           10.5
4         7        3.5           10.5
5         10.5   3.5           14
6         10.5   3.5           14
7         14      4.5           18.5
8         14      4.5           18.5
9         17.5   4.5           22
10       17.5   4.5           22
11       21      4.5           25.5
12       21      5.5           26.5
13       21      5.5           26.5
14       21      5.5           26.5
15       21      5.5           26.5
16       21      5.5           26.5
17       21      6.5           27.5

Since Deflect mitigates half the incoming damage, if the incoming damage is expected to be more than double the value in the Total column above, Deflect is the better option (on average).

But remember that Parry can totally eliminate an incoming attack if you roll well, so it can eliminate rider effects that might come with an attack (poison, etc). Deflect will not do that. 
why did you all assume i was meaning that negatively?

i meant i would love to see it

Sorry then. I'd expect to see an Smile or "!" on a possitive post. Without them, it seemed/felt negitive.



its not healthy to default to a negative standpoint :P

How long have you been on these boards again? Tongue Out

I hope for the best but expect the worst. 




I expect the worst and am rarely disappointed.
Forged_Fury pretty much did the math, however there is one slight catch:
If you use your MDD to always parry, then parrying always comes out better than using Deflect. At each level, you are unlikely to get hit for more than twice the entry in Forged_Fury's Total column on a single attack.
However, if you remove the MDD, all you have left to parry with is your Skill Die, and in a comparison of Parry (skill die only) vs Deflect, the latter is more likely to come out on top. Perhaps worse than a full Parry, but you can still reduce incoming damage by half, while spending those MDDs on dealing additional damage yourself.
Nah, you get your MDD for both attack and reactions, its been stated already in a twitter post, your MDD resets on turn not round meaning can use your MDD to attack and parry, each round. Deflect is not worth the feat for a fighter..
Its been stated already in a twitter post, your MDD resets on turn not round meaning can use your MDD to attack and parry, each round.


My math is based on that "ruling" from Mike Mearls. If it were changed that MDD only refreshed at the start of a character's turn, Deflect would become more attractive.

Exactly - if you assume that you cannot both use your MDD for parrying and for extra damage (regardless of whether they refresh at the end or the beginning of the turn) then the purpose of Deflect is clear:  It is a way to mitigate damage without using up your MDD.  As such, it seems very useful.


 


If you can use your Parry dice for both (which seems excessive both to me and to the guy playing a fighter in our group) - then it is less useful.  But more options is rarely a bad idea; if you don't think it is useful you just don't take it.


 


And it will always be useful to those classes that don't have Parry - not everyone is a fighter after all.... 


Carl

Nah, you get your MDD for both attack and reactions, its been stated already in a twitter post, your MDD resets on turn not round meaning can use your MDD to attack and parry, each round. Deflect is not worth the feat for a fighter..



I found the twitter post... I will NOT express my feelings on this issue, because I'd be banned from the forums for extreme misconduct, and probably be sued as well...

Deflect is useless to fighters. End of story.
TBH, I think a lot of people are missing out on the other reason Deflect sucks for fighters: it's generally only useful for fighters who normally use light weapons. I'm not exactly sure who that would encompass other than themed builds (knife fighters and what not) and swashbuckler types. Same thing with Riposte. I guess it's a TWF/Swashbuckler themed feat, but not sure why you would use it over parry. Maybe more appropriate for a Rogue?
Nah, you get your MDD for both attack and reactions, its been stated already in a twitter post, your MDD resets on turn not round meaning can use your MDD to attack and parry, each round. Deflect is not worth the feat for a fighter..



I found the twitter post... I will NOT express my feelings on this issue, because I'd be banned from the forums for extreme misconduct, and probably be sued as well...

Deflect is useless to fighters. End of story.



I misssed this Twitter post.  I saw the one that stated the opposite by Trevor.  Was there a later one that contradicted Trevor's post?

If so - by whom?

Carl
I misssed this Twitter post.  I saw the one that stated the opposite by Trevor.  Was there a later one that contradicted Trevor's post?

If so - by whom?

Carl


Yeah, Mike Mearls.
Thanks - I found it.

Hmm...

I suspected that was the case  initally having seen his comments on the subject last month.  But after seeing it in play I was kinda hoping Trevor was right.

More reason to think that the MDD need to be cut back a bit.

Carl
TBH, I think a lot of people are missing out on the other reason Deflect sucks for fighters: it's generally only useful for fighters who normally use light weapons. I'm not exactly sure who that would encompass other than themed builds (knife fighters and what not) and swashbuckler types. Same thing with Riposte. I guess it's a TWF/Swashbuckler themed feat, but not sure why you would use it over parry. Maybe more appropriate for a Rogue?



Home made alternative to Riposte.... called retaliate, instead of triggering on a miss it triggers on a hit but works with any melee weapon  might adjust prequisites ... hate preq.
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