KotOR II Lightsaber Forms expanded (suggestions?)

Hi guys, awesome site

I want to use the lightsaber forms provided by the KotOR II game in our gaming (we are considering allowing them as feats), and was wondering if anybody has already built stats for, or has any ideas for the forms NOT already done in KotOR II?

The forms I'm looking for specifically are Jar'Kai, Djem So, Vaapad, Sokan, and Trakata (alternative form names would also be good thanks).

Here is a list of KotOR II's forms as a quick reference:

Shii-Cho [Determination, Sarlacc]
Atk Mod +1
Def +3
DvCT -3

Makasi [Contention, Ysalamiri]
Atk Mod +3 (vs lightsaber)
Dam +3
BBD -5
SvFP +2

Soresu [Resilience, Mynock]
DvCT +2
BBD +4
WTR -1

Ataru [Aggression, Hawk-Bat]
Def -2
DvCT +5
BBD -4
WTR +1

Shien [Perseverance, Krayt Dragon]
Atk Mod +2
DvCT -5
BBD +2
Crit Multiplier +1

Niman [Moderation, Rancor]
Atk Mod +1
Def +1
BBD +1
SvFP +1

Juyo [Ferocity, Vornskr]
Def -4
DvCT +2
SvFP -4
Atk per Rnd +1
Crit Hit Atk Mod +4

If there's any forms I've left out, or if there's anything out there for long-handled lightsabers, reverse grip, etc, please feel free to chuck that in here as well.

Cheers.
The forms I'm looking for specifically are Jar'Kai, Djem So, Vaapad, Sokan, and Trakata (alternative form names would also be good thanks).


You do realize those are already form talents under the Jedi Knight class?

Now asside from that I'm not sure how directly any of those things would covert to SAGA and if you think they do convert directly I don't think you realize how unbalanced some of them could be.  In a lot of cases you can replicate a certain lightsaber "form" just by your selection of feat and perhaps even Lightsaber Force Powers.  Just because the feat is called "Power Attack" that doesn't mean it can not represent some agressive lightsaber form.
 
The forms I'm looking for specifically are Jar'Kai, Djem So, Vaapad, Sokan, and Trakata (alternative form names would also be good thanks).


You do realize those are already form talents under the Jedi Knight class?

Now asside from that I'm not sure how directly any of those things would covert to SAGA and if you think they do convert directly I don't think you realize how unbalanced some of them could be.  In a lot of cases you can replicate a certain lightsaber "form" just by your selection of feat and perhaps even Lightsaber Force Powers.  Just because the feat is called "Power Attack" that doesn't mean it can not represent some agressive lightsaber form.
 

Hey StevenO

Yea the group was thinking the JK LF talents could be used to represent mastery of a particular form, not the form itself per say.

There was some good lightsaber form work on the saga editon website that listed a group of feats, talents, skills, etc to encompass the 'spirit' of these forms, which we have already looked at.

I can see how they could be used if converted directly, but I haven't played SAGA long enough to fully appreciate how unbalanced these could become. We certainly don't want to break our game.

Cheers for the insight.
Steven, I think what the OP is going for is something along the lines of KotOR II's form system. In that game, each form had certain modifiers/penalties; you would select which form you wanted active at a given time.
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
That may be Corran but I never had the pleasure of playing KotOR so I don't know how that might work.  Secondly, "advancing a form" in SAGA would basically amount to taking the feats, powers, and talents that thematically fit the "form" you are choosing.
 
That may be Corran but I never had the pleasure of playing KotOR so I don't know how that might work.  Secondly, "advancing a form" in SAGA would basically amount to taking the feats, powers, and talents that thematically fit the "form" you are choosing.
 


I'm not disagreeing with you.
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
Yea Corran, that was what our OP was going for; actual forms that you would be considered using at any given time. We were thinking about allowing 'form switches' as swift actions (for example) as well.

It's the group's thoughts that these forms seem like they could be tested in our gaming to see what would happen.

I am curious what people would state as the 'stats' for the other forms not included in KotOR II, if they were to be represented in a KotOR II style format.

...
DvCT -3
...
BBD -5
SvFP +2
...
WTR -1
...


What's DvCT, BBD, SvFP, and WTR?


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...
DvCT -3
...
BBD -5
SvFP +2
...
WTR -1
...


What's DvCT, BBD, SvFP, and WTR?



Defence vs Current Target
Blaster Bolt Deflection
Saves vs Force Powers
Weapon Threat Range (I believe WTR is the roll on a d20 to threaten a critical hit. A lightsaber is 19-20. In KotOR II you 'threatened a critical' then if you succeeded on another attack roll you dealt your extra damage).
Critical Hit Attack Modifier was the bonus added to the second attack roll, after the critical threat.
Crit Multiplier is the extra damage a critical hit causes, be it 2x, 3x, etc.
Yea Corran, that was what our OP was going for; actual forms that you would be considered using at any given time. We were thinking about allowing 'form switches' as swift actions (for example) as well.

It's the group's thoughts that these forms seem like they could be tested in our gaming to see what would happen.

I am curious what people would state as the 'stats' for the other forms not included in KotOR II, if they were to be represented in a KotOR II style format.


Who would be able to use these special "forms"? Would you allow any lightsaber user to use them as a swift action? Or do you require that they actually have the specific lightsaber form talent?

Also, have you looked at the Lightsaber Form Powers in Jedi Academy Training Manual? Many of them work off of the existing lightsaber forms. 


EDIT: Found this thread which might be useful:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...


JOIN US AT THE NEW STAR WARS SAGA EDITION COMMUNITY: THE SAGA CONTINUES!

 

Compiled files of all Star Wars Saga Edition resource documents & reference tools - NPCs, character sheets, Dawn of Defiance, Force and lightsaber form power cards, Jedi Counseling articles, NPC statblocks, Saga Index to all feats, talents, species, weapons, etc, Star Wars articles and web enhancements

Yea Corran, that was what our OP was going for; actual forms that you would be considered using at any given time. We were thinking about allowing 'form switches' as swift actions (for example) as well.

It's the group's thoughts that these forms seem like they could be tested in our gaming to see what would happen.

I am curious what people would state as the 'stats' for the other forms not included in KotOR II, if they were to be represented in a KotOR II style format.


Who would be able to use these special "forms"? Would you allow any lightsaber user to use them as a swift action? Or do you require that they actually have the specific lightsaber form talent?

Also, have you looked at the Lightsaber Form Powers in Jedi Academy Training Manual? Many of them work off of the existing lightsaber forms. 


EDIT: Found this thread which might be useful:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...



Ah no, the swift action ref was intended for if a lightsaber user had a 'form' it would take swift action to activate it.

I'm going to say that they would probably replace the talents from the lightsaber forms talent tree, or have prereqs high enough that they aren't taken too early. There will likely be additional feats and/or skills required to be able to use said forms as well, such as Ataru requiring skill focus acrobatics or a certain Dex, Bantha Rush for Djem So, etc.

We are still working out the other missing forms and deciding a definitive way we will work these in
Here's our thoughts on two of the forms we've come up with. Let me know what you guys think.

Djem So [Domination]
attack modifier +2
defence -4
defence vs current target -2
critical hit attack modifer +2

The "Domination" Form seemed to fit Djem So, so we have rolled with it. The bonuses to attack and crit mod are there to emphasize the form's pension toward physically dominating a duel, whilst the defence penalties represent the form user's intent to attack rather than to protect themselves. KotOR II stacks defences, so a -2 to defence against the target you are attacking reduces your vulnerability in combat, and forces the practitioner to 'press an attack' or remain vulnerable to any other threats. attack mods aid in BBD, so Djem So retains an ability to better return shots without taking away from Shien.

Jar'Kai
This form was more difficult, but in the end we came up with the following:
attack mod +1
defence -2
blaster bolt deflection +1
saves vs Force powers -4
attacks per round +1

In the end we decided the form needed to lack general defence (as it is said to reduce a practitioner's ability to properly block with a one-handed grip). The same reasons hold true with Force-based defences, so we added a -4 to that. An extra attack per round was included to both emphasize the usage of duel blades, and give the form an obvious reason to consider learning it in the first place.

We will house rule another benefit to the lightsaber forms Jar'Kai talent, as our OP doesn't feel that it properly reflects the lightsaber form. Our variant talent will likely include reducing the penalty to making multiple attacks while using the Jar'Kai form.

Ideas, comments, crits welcome
Here's our thoughts on two of the forms we've come up with. Let me know what you guys think.

Djem So [Domination]
attack modifier +2
defence -4
defence vs current target -2
critical hit attack modifer +2

The "Domination" Form seemed to fit Djem So, so we have rolled with it. The bonuses to attack and crit mod are there to emphasize the form's pension toward physically dominating a duel, whilst the defence penalties represent the form user's intent to attack rather than to protect themselves. KotOR II stacks defences, so a -2 to defence against the target you are attacking reduces your vulnerability in combat, and forces the practitioner to 'press an attack' or remain vulnerable to any other threats. attack mods aid in BBD, so Djem So retains an ability to better return shots without taking away from Shien.

Jar'Kai
This form was more difficult, but in the end we came up with the following:
attack mod +1
defence -2
blaster bolt deflection +1
saves vs Force powers -4
attacks per round +1

In the end we decided the form needed to lack general defence (as it is said to reduce a practitioner's ability to properly block with a one-handed grip). The same reasons hold true with Force-based defences, so we added a -4 to that. An extra attack per round was included to both emphasize the usage of duel blades, and give the form an obvious reason to consider learning it in the first place.

We will house rule another benefit to the lightsaber forms Jar'Kai talent, as our OP doesn't feel that it properly reflects the lightsaber form. Our variant talent will likely include reducing the penalty to making multiple attacks while using the Jar'Kai form.

Ideas, comments, crits welcome

I think there are one important reason why you shouldn't do this:
Keeping track of things. Your forms are going to be an extreme pain to keep track of in combat, no matter how well you write them down, because you need to keep track of things.

Furthermore, because you're going to do this anyway, you need to make a very good definition of current target, because generally there's not really such a thing in SAGA. Also, which defense? Reflex? Also, saves vs. Force powers don't exist in this game. Do you mean fortitude & will vs. Force powers? Etc.
Here's our thoughts on two of the forms we've come up with. Let me know what you guys think.

Djem So [Domination]
attack modifier +2
defence -4
defence vs current target -2
critical hit attack modifer +2

The "Domination" Form seemed to fit Djem So, so we have rolled with it. The bonuses to attack and crit mod are there to emphasize the form's pension toward physically dominating a duel, whilst the defence penalties represent the form user's intent to attack rather than to protect themselves. KotOR II stacks defences, so a -2 to defence against the target you are attacking reduces your vulnerability in combat, and forces the practitioner to 'press an attack' or remain vulnerable to any other threats. attack mods aid in BBD, so Djem So retains an ability to better return shots without taking away from Shien.

Jar'Kai
This form was more difficult, but in the end we came up with the following:
attack mod +1
defence -2
blaster bolt deflection +1
saves vs Force powers -4
attacks per round +1

In the end we decided the form needed to lack general defence (as it is said to reduce a practitioner's ability to properly block with a one-handed grip). The same reasons hold true with Force-based defences, so we added a -4 to that. An extra attack per round was included to both emphasize the usage of duel blades, and give the form an obvious reason to consider learning it in the first place.

We will house rule another benefit to the lightsaber forms Jar'Kai talent, as our OP doesn't feel that it properly reflects the lightsaber form. Our variant talent will likely include reducing the penalty to making multiple attacks while using the Jar'Kai form.

Ideas, comments, crits welcome

I think there are one important reason why you shouldn't do this:
Keeping track of things. Your forms are going to be an extreme pain to keep track of in combat, no matter how well you write them down, because you need to keep track of things.

Furthermore, because you're going to do this anyway, you need to make a very good definition of current target, because generally there's not really such a thing in SAGA. Also, which defense? Reflex? Also, saves vs. Force powers don't exist in this game. Do you mean fortitude & will vs. Force powers? Etc.

Hey Darth_Raptornus

I do expect there to be some translation issues in our OP testing forms out in this way. specifically, in what way do you see these as being hard to keep track of in a combat situation?

current target is the character you attacked last (because it was an attack you made on your turn, or from an attack of opportunity, etc). If you made no attack on your turn, and have not made one since being the target of an enemy's attack, then you have no current target.

defence is just your basic defence; so a +2 defence increase would be adding 2 to your base of 10, which would be raising all of your defences by that amount (10 + heroic level + Dex/Con/Wis + all relevant bonuses + 2).

saves vs Force powers I'm going to say would be against whichever defence the Force power is targeting. If a FP will damage you failing a Fort save, then the modifer will affect your Fort save, etc.
Though only half of my party is composed of experienced tabletop players, they sometimes have enough trouble keeping up with things like born leader, condition track modifiers and other temporary bonuses from equipment, talents and feats. I can imagine having one feat that gives such an large amount of bonuses/penalties (not to mention other bonuses they'll have) will cause a lot of trouble. Smaller things like "oh wait! I forgot that the feat gives me a +2 to this defense so it wouldn't have hit after all!" a turn later or even just having to calculate things constantly. This would eventually lead to an incredible slow-down of combat which might eventually turn very frustrating or boring for the players if they have to "wait five minutes before the Jedis' turns are over". 
I think you're better off just leaving the explicit forms to flavor and build them out through existing feats and talents (someone that's a user of defense-focused form(s) would take deflect/block while a more offensive build would take lightsaber specialization etc.) and representing mastery of that feat through the Jedi Knight talents (which I think suit just fine). In a computer game, it's much easier to throw in hugely different forms that can be switched through constantly, because the computer will keep track of it.

Furthermore, on a more roleplay-realistic level I'd also disagree with the whole "switching of forms" thing. With lightsabers being the Jedi's form of martial arts, I'll use martial arts as an example: if someone was taught (or even mastered) two or more different styles of martial arts, would he switch between the styles actively throughout combat suiting his situation? No, I think he'd find a good synergy between the styles and would simply adapt his tactics depending on the style. A dual-blade user could just as well be a master of both ataru and djem-so (I believe that's the dual-wielding one?), using his natural agility in a way that supplements his dual-wielding capabilities. I doubt midway combat he'd decide that he's now gonna use Ataru instead of Djem So: he'd use both.

If you're still gonna use them, I just want to make the point that you really need to be very clear on what you want to do. A +2 defense increase across the board is pretty strong. A -4 defense penalty across the board is very crippling (though less so for a Jedi with block/deflect, I guess). I'd advice you to read the current rules well and adapt your feats to that. For example, most force-resisting feats only apply for fortitude and will. Most combat defense increases apply to reflex (after all, how would a lightsaber stance that's focused on deflecting lightsabers give a bonus to ALL defenses?). If you really want to use them, try not to make them too powerful or situation/changing, because otherwise you'd basically give the players the ability to change their entire characters' combat focus on the fly, which would be somewhat unfair to the soldier that's specifically focused on fighting other soldiers but bad against force-users. Why should the two Jedi in the party be able to switch their focus with a swift action and basically be good against many different things, which causes his focus to be somewhat negated (the party won't really need to have a reflex-combat focused member), and he shouldn't be able to?

Ok, gonna stop typing now >_>
Also, this is just my opinion. Message boards are difficult to convey tone over: I'm not saying you shouldn't do this or intend to be mean, but I can't really see why you would go through the trouble. 

Here's our thoughts on two of the forms we've come up with. Let me know what you guys think.

Djem So [Domination]
attack modifier +2
defence -4
defence vs current target -2
critical hit attack modifer +2

There’s no such thing as a “critical hit attack modifer” in Saga. Do you mean critical threat range +2? If so that would be overpowered. Also, how do you know who your “current target” is? What if you attacked 2 separate targets on your last turn? Who is your current target in that case?



Jar'Kai
This form was more difficult, but in the end we came up with the following:
attack mod +1
defence -2
blaster bolt deflection +1
saves vs Force powers -4
attacks per round +1

So you gain these bonuses as a swift action? Do they last until the end of the encounter? Also, how do you calculate the extra attack per round? Is it only when you perform a full-round action? Do you take a -5 penalty on all your attacks as if using Double Attack or Triple Attack?

Also, I agree with most of what Darth_Raptornus is saying. It’s already a nightmare to keep track of everything in combat in Saga. Defenses, condition track, shield rating, damage reduction, damage threshold, hit points, force powers spent, encounter abilities spent, special attacks and defenses, standard actions, move actions, swift actions, free actions, etc…

For example, I’m making an attack with Battle strike, so I gain +1 attack bonus, but I’m -2 steps down the condition track, which means all attacks and defenses are at -2. I used charge, so I gain a +2 attack bonus but a -2 Reflex penalty until my next turn. Also, I used Rapid Strike, so I take a -2 attack penalty but a +1 die of damage. I’m also using Power Attack, so -1 to attacks and +2 to damage. Now I add your version of Djem So and I gain +2 attack but -4 to defenses and -6 to defenses against current target. Also, I’m using a swift action to recover. 2 more swift actions to go before moving up the condition track.

You need to perform these calculations and keep track of all these things every round. Personally, as an experienced GM, I find it already overwhelming to keep track of every stat for every NPC my players are fighting. It takes a long time for them to figure out which powers they are going to use. Combat is already pretty slow in Saga, especially when you get up to mid-levels. Adding this extra layer of complexity is going to slow things down even more for sure. But if you think its worth it and your players don’t mind doing it, go for it.



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I agree with Darth_Rap and Richter. For the sack of cleaniness and easy of use, just use the Jedi Knight talents and at lower level, use the lightsaber form force powers in Jedi Academy Training Manual.

The Lightsaber Form powers are a great way to build a Jedi with a Form, in mind, but not able to take the "Mastery" talents in Jedi Knight's tree untill later. They have basic abilities that fit the form and a bonus ability if you are a Master of the form (ie. taken that form's talent)

Example: (not exact quote from the book, will edit later, going off memory for now)

Barrier of Blade {lightsaber form}
You spin your lightsaber around you, creating a barrier where no attack can enter
Shift Action: Make a Use the Force Check. Until next turn, you may use the check's roll result instead of your Reflex Defense against all non-area ranged attacks.
(Shien) You main redirect one ranged attack that missed back to its target, as per Redirect Shot.
Force Point: Apply benefits to autofire. If attack hits, take half damage, if miss, no damage

That one of my favorite but also a great example of how cool and very easy to have a workable example of your choosen form without having the talent for it yet.



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I think the real problem with implementing these in Saga is that PCs in KotOR 2 are MUCH more powerful than those in Saga, even though they use similar systems. (This is due in part to forms and gear). I remember getting a Strength of 36 (and it could've gone higher, but I went for a Wis and Cha bonus instead from robes). The forms would be overpowered in Saga.
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
Corran has hit the nail on the head here: Although the game's systems are similar, kotor's stats end up crazy by end game as balancing goes right out the window. Equipment, weapon upgrades, armour, stims, a larger level cap (to name a few); all things that are not represented the same way with SAGA, which all need to be present to make a system that would work smoother.

We have play-tested the existing kotor forms to a reasonable extent - enough to be satisfied that it is not worth the trouble of implementing them after all. Although our group did expect some issues with this idea, it does tend to create unbalancing (our GM didn't mind the extra tracking so much as the extent of the modifiers that needed to be tracked).
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />A lot of work would need to be done here to get something working - and SAGA already possesses all the necessary tools to mechanically and thematically represent lightsaber forms right through from basic skills to mastery.


Although our group has decided to avoid putting kotor LS forms into our gaming, I can't help but remain curious as to what the guys here would have stated out for the missing forms, as I know many of you are avid kotor fans (Corran you spring readily to mind :P). Just some extra thoughts for fun.
Oh, I'm definitely a hardcore KotOR fanboy. I'm still playing through the games again and again, and I disliked the way the Old Republic handled the KotOR characters so much (Yeah, probably some nerdrage. I'm not proud) that I've created an alternate canon for my RPG campaigns set after the games, should be fun to continue in. (Last session ended with a Jedi PC arriving in Khoonda a few days after the events on Malachor V, tracking Dark Jedi and hoping to avoid a run-in with Vrook's irritable spirit). I think one thing that could work would be to introduce forms in the same way but make them very weak comparatively. Juyo could be an extra 5 damage on a critical, Soresu could be a +2 bonus to deflection, etc. To balance it, you would have to take a feat to gain access to them. Sounds easy, but considering that only one of these would be open at any time and the effects wouldn't be huge I think it would be fine.
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
I think all star wars fan are in some way KotOR fans. I know I am and still play the games (a recent playthrough actually inspired our group, which led to this forum). I too am not happy with the way SWTOR has handled the characters. I'm silently hoping they bring us a KotOR III in the traditional sense of the games. Who knows..

That campaign you're rolling out sounds pretty good. Though our GM is an experienced one, he has never done a SW game before, and though our group has many SW fans, we are all lids

We could indeed add feat-based forms in this way. I don't think we will end up doing it though, for two reasons: 1) we were specifically going for form representation directly set out like KotOR's (with the attack mods, weapon threat, etc) stats. Now that we are satisfied it can't work out the way we had hoped we will not be trying anything else because 2) SAGA already has feats, form powers, talents, that do work with SAGA. I think it's best if we get full-bottle on the way SAGA plays before we go injecting our own stuff in there, although I will definitely take your ideas to my group and GM and see if they are keen to roll with something like what you have offered up.

My interest in this now is purely to see what people that know of the KotOR II forms would stat up for Jar'Kai, Trakata, Djem So and Vaapad, without trying to adapt it for a SAGA game.

My interest in this now is purely to see what people that know of the KotOR II forms would stat up for Jar'Kai, Trakata, Djem So and Vaapad, without trying to adapt it for a SAGA game.



One thing on the the last thing. Vaapad didn't exist in KOTOR era. Mace Windu and Sora Bulq created it after Mace needed way to focus his enjoyment of battle and thrist for winning into something positive.

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Yes I am aware of Vaapad's creation and it's reason for Master Windu coming up with the form.

If it appeared in KotOR II what would it's form stats build look like? For example, Soresu was:

Defence vs. Current Target: +2


Blaster Bolt Deflection: +4


Weapon Threat Range: -1

If you put any of the forms I had listed into the same format, how would you build them? I'm not after what is canonically correct, and as I have already discussed with Corran, my intention isn't to try to fit these into SAGA either. I'm interested in what people think when dealing purely with the mechanics.

This can be expanded upon with any Force forms, any forms from Luke's Jedi era. Even throw in some fan-made ideas too if you are keen.  



There are some lightsaber forms in the books that I find weak. For example, I find Trakata extremely weak, since it can be effectively replicated by the Combat Trickery feat, which can be taken at level 1. Whereas Trakata has a whopping BAB +12 prerequisite (along with Weapon Specialization), which means you can’t select it until at least level 12. The benefits don’t match the costs. Therefore, here is my Trakata house rule:

Trakata weak talent house rule options:

(1) costs 1 swift action (instead of 2) due to high prerequisites; maybe makes opponent flat-footed until end of next turn. (2) Remove BAB+12 prerequisite and Weapon Spec prerequisite.

I also find Djem So needs some tweaking. The way it’s written, you’ll burn through all your FP’s in no time.

Djem So weak talent options:

(1) once per encounter, you may use this talent without spending a FP. OR (2) You treat the Djem So attack as an AoO or an immediate free attack where you resolve the Djem So attack and damage first before resolving the opponent’s damage OR (3) replacing the wording on Djem So to read something like: "You can use the Riposte talent once per round instead of once per encounter. Prerequisites: Block, Riposte."

I also find Makashi and Jar'Kai need a boost. Therefore, I modify the Lightsaber Defense talent: The first time you pick Lightsaber Defense, you gain a +2 deflection bonus instead of +1 bonus. The second time you pick the talent, you gain the standard +1 bonus. This in turn improves Makashi and Jar’kai by a little bit.

I also find Niman weak, but I don’t have a house rule to improve it (yet).



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"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
Very fair and reasonable house rules for those forms richter. I have read a lot of articles with people saying that the forms you've mentioned don't do themselves justice, or have prereqs too high to worth taking.


Uh, nice lid there Corran.. 


That campaign you're rolling out sounds pretty good. Though our GM is an experienced one, he has never done a SW game before, and though our group has many SW fans, we are all lids





Pretty random, I admit. I was bored.

Vaapad could double critical range and increase threat range by 2, but also increase the cost of Force powers by 5.
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
Show
Star Wars Minis has a home here http://www.bloomilk.com/ and Star Wars Saga Edition RPG has a home here http://thesagacontinues.createaforum.com/index.php
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
That's pretty good:
Critical Multiplier +1 (critical hits would do triple damage with lightsabers)
Weapon Threat Range +2 (that's threaten critcal on a 17-20 with lightsabers), or

Weapon Threat Range +2 (that's threaten critcal on a 17-20 with lightsabers)   
Critical Hit Attack Modifier +2, and    

Force Power Cost +5

BTW, a 'lid' is an aussie army term for a newbie who has no idea (is full of crap and always gets slammed) Wink  
I like it!

Re: lids- I was wondering, haha. Watch out-that coffee can be pretty hot!
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
Show
Star Wars Minis has a home here http://www.bloomilk.com/ and Star Wars Saga Edition RPG has a home here http://thesagacontinues.createaforum.com/index.php
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
Haha.


I admit I don't have much for any of the other forms. especially Trakat. There doesn/t seem to be much info out there for that form at all..   
Haha.


I admit I don't have much for any of the other forms. especially Trakat. There doesn/t seem to be much info out there for that form at all..   




Trakata is all about deception and bypassing an oppontent's defenses. The talent from Jedi Knight tree is as follows:

Trakata : By harnessing the unique characteristics of a lightsaber, you
can catch your opponent off guard by quickly shutting off and reigniting
the blade. When wielding a lightsaber, you may spend two swift actions to
make a Deception check to feint in combat 

So the stats would have to allow for lower enemy defenses and bonus to hit/less chance of block.

A every limited read on the basics of Trakata are found here: starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tr%C3%A0kata

Help this help a little bit.



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This is quite challenging to represent in KotOR II as KotOR II doesn't modify an opponent's stats (the forms modify your stats).

The Wookieepedia article says it was developed by Consular's to aid in the use of their Force powers, so we can run with a bonus to Force Power Damage, and/or perhaps a bonus to Saves vs. Force Powers. I'd give them a small bonus (maybe only +1 or +2 at most), both because Trakata isn't said to be particularly powerful or well-used lightsaber Form, and because significant bonuses to Force-related stats should be coming from Force Forms. Lowering an opponent's chance to hit can be done with a bonus to Defence vs Current Target (+2?), that way the bonus only applies to one opponent, not all of them if you are being attacked by a mob.

As for lowering an opponent's defence, we could go with a bonus to one of the following: Weapon Threat Range (improves your chances of threatening a critical), Critical Multiplier (increases how much damage you score on a successful critical hit), or Critical Hit Attack Modifier (increases the liklihood that a critical threat will result in critical damage). Alternatively, we could just make up a different stat altogether, like a Current Target Defence -2 or something like that. Keeping in mind of course that a stat like that would essentially make all of your attacks more likely to hit...

Cheers for the thoughts Master Ark, you've definitely provided the foundations for some ideas here.