Questions about Two-Weapon Defense

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Two-­‐Weapon Defense

You can use the weapon you wield in your off hand to defend yourself.

Benefit:

While you are wielding a different weapon in each hand, you gain a +1 bonus to AC, provided you have proficiency with both weapons.

Does "Different weapon" mean the weapons can't be of the same type, or simply you can't use it with a 2-hande weapon?

Doe s Shiels (D4 weapon) count? Having +2 from the shield and the feat would actually make Sheilds almost useful again.
 

Does "Different weapon" mean the weapons can't be of the same type, or simply you can't use it with a 2-hande weapon?

I think that by different weapon it means NOT a double weapon.

Does "Different weapon" mean the weapons can't be of the same type, or simply you can't use it with a 2-hande weapon?

I think that by different weapon it means NOT a double weapon.

Which is LAME. A staff is a much better defensive weapon than two daggers...

On the shield with two weapon defense, a shield isn't a weapon you are proficient in. it's armor you are proficient in that you can use in a melee attack. Now a spiked shield would count if you can figure out how to get proficiency in an exotic weapon... 



On the shield with two weapon defense, a shield isn't a weapon you are proficient in. it's armor you are proficient in that you can use in a melee attack. Now a spiked shield would count if you can figure out how to get proficiency in an exotic weapon... 



Hrmmm... Shield appeared in the martial weapons list in the last iteration... Spiked Shield appears under special weapons in this iteration. Is a shield no longer a D4 weapons in this iteration?




On the shield with two weapon defense, a shield isn't a weapon you are proficient in. it's armor you are proficient in that you can use in a melee attack. Now a spiked shield would count if you can figure out how to get proficiency in an exotic weapon... 



Hrmmm... Shield appeared in the martial weapons list in the last iteration... Spiked Shield appears under special weapons in this iteration. Is a shield no longer a D4 weapons in this iteration?



It's not a weapon, it's armor. It has a damage dice, so you can hit with it. But a rock (imp. weapon) has the same stats, so that doesn't tell us anything. However, wether you get a weapon attack bonus is unclear. Unless the rules state it's a weapon, I wouldn't allow either the bonus nor the use in TWD.

So you'd let someone use TWD with a Spiked Shield, but not a regular old shield, eh?
 
So you'd let someone use TWD with a Spiked Shield, but not a regular old shield, eh?
 

Yep... Well, they can't now because there isn't a way to get the proficiency. But if they WHERE proficient, then I sure would. It's a weapon on the weapon chart so there isn't a reason to say no. there isn't a normal shield on the  weapon chart and the sheild description doesn't say it's a weapon, so it isn't a weapon.


Does "Different weapon" mean the weapons can't be of the same type, or simply you can't use it with a 2-hande weapon?

I think that by different weapon it means NOT a double weapon.

Which is LAME. A staff is a much better defensive weapon than two daggers...

The weapon property, double, actually specifically states "you are considered to have a different weapon in each hand when you wield the weapon with both hands," so there is no issue - the language of "different weapon in each hand" simply prevents any misunderstanding about whether a normal two-handed weapon (example: greatsword) counts because the character has a weapon in each of his hands while both are on the same greatsword.

Careful, man. That much logic might be illegal on the internet. - Salla

Does "Different weapon" mean the weapons can't be of the same type, or simply you can't use it with a 2-hande weapon?

I think that by different weapon it means NOT a double weapon.

Which is LAME. A staff is a much better defensive weapon than two daggers...

The weapon property, double, actually specifically states "you are considered to have a different weapon in each hand when you wield the weapon with both hands," so there is no issue - the language of "different weapon in each hand" simply prevents any misunderstanding about whether a normal two-handed weapon (example: greatsword) counts because the character has a weapon in each of his hands while both are on the same greatsword.


Yeah, that makes sense. That'll teach me to skim over a section.

I started the exact same topic as well:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

The consensus seems to be: "slopppy writing" is the cause of the word different.
I started the exact same topic as well:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

The consensus seems to be: "slopppy writing" is the cause of the word different.

Well there IS a not of that going around. Rope Trick STILL has no durration and lasts forever.

Actually, shields are considered weapons, and it says so in the "Equipment" document. You probably missed it.
On pg.2, under the "Armor Categories" heading, it has an entry for the shield. It says (I quote, Wizards plz forgive this minor breach of confidentiality)

Shield: ...Additionally, shields can be used as weapons in combat."


(emphasis mine).
The shield description on pg.4 simply states how much damage a melee attack with a shield deals. Now, by definition, anything usable in dealing combat damage is a weapon (forget spells for the moment), so I'd treat shields as weapons even if the document did not include the quoted text, above.

As far as the Two-Weapon Defense feat goes, I'd allow it to improve the AC of a sword-and-board fighter just as well as it applies to a standard two-weapon fighter. The reasoning is simple: In the case of the shield-wielder I define it as representing specialization with the shield (I remind you of the Shield Specialization feat in 3.5E's PHB II). I think the name choice is unfortunate; something along the lines of "Combat Defense" would be more appropriate.

And yes, the "two different weapons" wording is a bit unclear.
Actually, shields are considered weapons, and it says so in the "Equipment" document. You probably missed it.
On pg.2, under the "Armor Categories" heading, it has an entry for the shield. It says (I quote, Wizards plz forgive this minor breach of confidentiality)

Shield: ...Additionally, shields can be used as weapons in combat."


(emphasis mine).
The shield description on pg.4 simply states how much damage a melee attack with a shield deals. Now, by definition, anything usable in dealing combat damage is a weapon (forget spells for the moment), so I'd treat shields as weapons even if the document did not include the quoted text, above.

As far as the Two-Weapon Defense feat goes, I'd allow it to improve the AC of a sword-and-board fighter just as well as it applies to a standard two-weapon fighter. The reasoning is simple: In the case of the shield-wielder I define it as representing specialization with the shield (I remind you of the Shield Specialization feat in 3.5E's PHB II). I think the name choice is unfortunate; something along the lines of "Combat Defense" would be more appropriate.

And yes, the "two different weapons" wording is a bit unclear.

Well, even with that it doesn't let it work with TWD. What pg2 fails to say is that you are proficient in the shield as a weapon JUST that you can use it as one. You can do the same thing with a rock, board or random familiar too. So no weapon bonus and no TWD use.

Your class determines whether you are proficient with a shield or not. Shield proficiency means you can use the shield for whatever purpose it was made, be it either defense or to inflict damage.
I think we are focusing too much on the (as of yet incomplete) RAW here.
Your class determines whether you are proficient with a shield or not. Shield proficiency means you can use the shield for whatever purpose it was made, be it either defense or to inflict damage.
I think we are focusing too much on the (as of yet incomplete) RAW here.

Well lets look...

Fighter Weapon Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons... So, going by your logic, the class determines your proficiencies. The class doesn't give weapon proficiency in shields. seems clear cut. For all I know, the d4 damage and 'can be used as a weapon' are just telling us that the shield can be used as an improvised weapon. The rules are just too poorly written to assume that shield proficiency also grants shield weapon proficiency.

I started the exact same topic as well:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

The consensus seems to be: "slopppy writing" is the cause of the word different.

Well there IS a not of that going around. Rope Trick STILL has no durration and lasts forever.



what are you talkiing about? right from the first mention of it, it has hjad a duration

I started the exact same topic as well:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

The consensus seems to be: "slopppy writing" is the cause of the word different.

Well there IS a not of that going around. Rope Trick STILL has no durration and lasts forever.



what are you talkiing about? right from the first mention of it, it has hjad a duration


LOL, no the entrance has a duration. Nothing says when the space goes away or what it's duration is. All you do is rest, allowing the entrance to vanish, then recast it to get out.

I started the exact same topic as well:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

The consensus seems to be: "slopppy writing" is the cause of the word different.

Well there IS a not of that going around. Rope Trick STILL has no durration and lasts forever.



what are you talkiing about? right from the first mention of it, it has hjad a duration


LOL, no the entrance has a duration. Nothing says when the space goes away or what it's duration is. All you do is rest, allowing the entrance to vanish, then recast it to get out.



Anything
inside
the
extradimensional
space
drops
out
when
the
spell
ends.
I started the exact same topic as well:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

The consensus seems to be: "slopppy writing" is the cause of the word different.

Well there IS a not of that going around. Rope Trick STILL has no durration and lasts forever.



what are you talkiing about? right from the first mention of it, it has hjad a duration


LOL, no the entrance has a duration. Nothing says when the space goes away or what it's duration is. All you do is rest, allowing the entrance to vanish, then recast it to get out.



Anything
inside
the
extradimensional
space
drops
out
when
the
spell
ends.

Reads through...  And when is that? Reads through...  The entrance (NOT space) lasts for 1 hour. + Anything inside the extradimensional space (not entrance) drops out when the spell ends = space not disapearing until you dispel it from inside the space.

So until it reads "The extradimensional space  lasts for 1 hour, it doesn't go away.

It doesn't have to specifically say this since Rope Trick doesn't create an extradimensional space. It create an invisible entrance that leads to an extradimensional space for 1 hour and drop everything out of the extradimensional space when the spell ends.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

It doesn't have to specifically say this since Rope Trick doesn't create an extradimensional space. It create an invisible entrance that leads to an extradimensional space for 1 hour and drop everything out of the extradimensional space when the spell ends.

It doesn't state when the spell ends. The spell has NO duration. Nothing says the space vanishes when the doorway does. or that the doorway vanishes if the space does (though it's not much good since it wouldn't lead anywhere). I stand by what I said in the last post of mine.

It doesn't have to specifically say this since Rope Trick doesn't create an extradimensional space. It create an invisible entrance that leads to an extradimensional space for 1 hour and drop everything out of the extradimensional space when the spell ends.

It doesn't state when the spell ends. The spell has NO duration. Nothing says the space vanishes when the doorway does. or that the doorway vanishes if the space does (though it's not much good since it wouldn't lead anywhere). I stand by what I said in the last post of mine.



you know, technically all the spell does is create the doorway. so when the doorway dissapears, the spell ends
It doesn't have to specifically say this since Rope Trick doesn't create an extradimensional space. It create an invisible entrance that leads to an extradimensional space for 1 hour and drop everything out of the extradimensional space when the spell ends.

It doesn't state when the spell ends. The spell has NO duration. Nothing says the space vanishes when the doorway does. or that the doorway vanishes if the space does (though it's not much good since it wouldn't lead anywhere). I stand by what I said in the last post of mine.



you know, technically all the spell does is create the doorway. so when the doorway dissapears, the spell ends

Nope, not at all. It has to also create the space you go to. If it was JUST a doorway, then it's conjuration (gate/teleport), but it is instead transmutation.

Counterpoint: If the space is fact isn't created be the spell, then where is it before and after the is cast?  Is there a pile of empty balls floating in extradimensional space? isn't more likely that the spell creates the space?

Nothing says the space vanishes when the doorway does. or that the doorway vanishes if the space does

True, the extradimensional space doesn't vanish since Rope Trick doesn't create one.

What Rope Trick does is create an entrance to an extradimensional space that last for 1 hour and drop everything out of the extradimensional space when it ends.

Technically the extradimensional space is still there somewhere empty, as it was before you created an entrance to it with Rope TrickWink

Where your assertion is incorrect is in saying Rope Trick has no duration.  It has one for what it creates (an entrance to an extradimensional space) and its 1 hour. And at the end of this period, anything in the extradimensional space drop out.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

It doesn't have to specifically say this since Rope Trick doesn't create an extradimensional space. It create an invisible entrance that leads to an extradimensional space for 1 hour and drop everything out of the extradimensional space when the spell ends.

It doesn't state when the spell ends. The spell has NO duration. Nothing says the space vanishes when the doorway does. or that the doorway vanishes if the space does (though it's not much good since it wouldn't lead anywhere). I stand by what I said in the last post of mine.



you know, technically all the spell does is create the doorway. so when the doorway dissapears, the spell ends

Nope, not at all. It has to also create the space you go to. If it was JUST a doorway, then it's conjuration (gate/teleport), but it is instead transmutation.

Counterpoint: If the space is fact isn't created be the spell, then where is it before and after the is cast?  Is there a pile of empty balls floating in extradimensional space? isn't more likely that the spell creates the space?



to your counterpoint, the dimensions arent floating around. they are just that. another dimension. ropetrick merely creates a gate between the two
Well I'm just going to say that i don't agree with you guys and that I read it differently. Since this is off topic, I'll stop debating it here. If you wish to contunue a rope trick debate, please start up a thread of that and I'll wander over.

Though, I think the main point that i was trying to make (sloppy writing) was pretty much proven. Tongue Out
I'd allow shields to work with TWD.  But that's because I like the idea, not because it's in the rules.  :P
Under attacks, the pregen human fighter has 'Shield +3; 1d4 + 2 bludgeoning damage' listed. With a Strength modifier of +2, the only way the shield attack could be made at +3 is if the fighter's level 1 Weapon Attack Bonus applies, which is only applicable to weapons with which the fighter has proficiency.

Danny

Under attacks, the pregen human fighter has 'Shield +3; 1d4 + 2 bludgeoning damage' listed. With a Strength modifier of +2, the only way the shield attack could be made at +3 is if the fighter's level 1 Weapon Attack Bonus applies, which is only applicable to weapons with which the fighter has proficiency.

Well, they've made mistakes before in the pregens. Either they made a mistake there or the weapon chart AND the shield description.