Bard|Paladin CA feat

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I built a Bard|Paladin with virtue of cunning (and of course advantage of cunning)
Would Deadly Draw be useful enough with the class feature being the only way i slide?
We are starting at lvl 8 
I built a Bard|Paladin with virtue of cunning (and of course advantage of cunning)
Would Deadly Draw be useful enough with the class feature being the only way i slide?
We are starting at lvl 8 



What are you trying to do with your build? Are you the Defender? Or are you a Bard who is using Paladin as a pseudo-striker mechanic?
The group i'm in does not have a full defender, im the second pseudo defender.  We rolled stats and i got about 16k to buy items since we are starting at 8
I took mostly powers that gave out penalties to hit, there is some stuff in there that is flavor for the character like a Sitak familiar

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Victor Hybrid option, level 8
Tiefling, Paladin/Bard
Hybrid Paladin Option: Hybrid Paladin Fortitude
Hybrid Bard Option: Hybrid Bard Reflex
Hybrid Talent Option: Bardic Virtue
Bardic Virtue Option: Virtue of Cunning
Cormyr (Wheloon) (Cormyr (Wheloon) Benefit)
Theme: Underdark Envoy

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 14, DEX 11, INT 16, WIS 14, CHA 22

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 14, DEX 11, INT 13, WIS 13, CHA 18


AC: 24 Fort: 19 Ref: 21 Will: 22
HP: 62 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 15

TRAINED SKILLS
Bluff +22, Dungeoneering +11, Religion +12, Thievery +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +8, Athletics +3, Diplomacy +16, Endurance +6, Heal +7, History +8, Insight +7, Intimidate +11, Nature +7, Perception +7, Stealth +6, Streetwise +11

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Underdark Envoy Attack: Insidious Commentary
Tiefling Racial Power: Infernal Wrath
Paladin Feature: Divine Challenge
Bard Feature: Majestic Word
Paladin Attack 1: Virtuous Strike
Bard Attack 1: Vicious Mockery
Paladin Attack 1: Valorous Smite
Paladin Attack 1: Majestic Halo
Paladin Utility 2: Call of Challenge
Bard Attack 3: Ballad of the Zombie King
Bard Attack 5: Satire of Bravery
Bard Utility 6: Revitalizing Incantation
Paladin Attack 7: Astral Thunder

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Arcane Familiar
Level 4: Advantage of Cunning
Level 6: Imperious Majesty
Level 8: Battle Song Expertise
Level 8: Deadly Draw

ITEMS
Symbol of the Champion's Code +2 x1
Amulet of Protection +2 x1
Master's Wand of Vicious Mockery +2
Gem of Colloquy (heroic tier) x1
Shield of Eyes Light Shield x1
Hidden Rapier +2 x1
Burglar's Gloves x1
Imposter's Chainmail +2 x1
====== End ======


 
Sorry for bumping but i was really hoping for some help on this, build criticizim is appreciated but answering the main question of "is Deadly Draw worth it?" is what im looking for
You dont really have enough forced movement powers to justify Deadly Draw. 

Echoing Weapon for Bard 3. 

You might consider Power of Arcana, Knowledge, Sea or Sun 

I dont understand the Arcane Familiar but oh well.

If you want CA, frost combo is your best bet.

How are you using the rapier? 
I'm guessing the familiar is for quick swapping rapier and wand.

Past level 7, master's wands are really not that useful when all your encounter powers are standard actions. I'd ditch that, and go with Devout Protector Expertise, stick with the holy symbol for implement attacks.

Deadly Draw is not worth it for this build. If you're looking for easy CA, Fey Beast Tamer is probably your best bet. (fluff-wise feybeast and familiar aren't that different anyway)

Ditching wand and Deadly Draw frees up two feats (assuming quick swapping the only reason you had a familiar), Grab two of:

* Bard of All Trades (you have a lot of untrained stills)
* Binding Initiate (to pull two more things toward you before you sanction, action point, and burst, and it happens to get you another skill)
* Accurate Holy symbol (you have a lot of implement powers)
* Superior Will (you're very action dependent and daze/stun sucks)

Side note, Ballad of the Zombie King is fine at level 3. You have a lot of minors to juggle as it is, no need for Echoing Weapon.
So it looks like your suggesting ignoring wands entirely, I considered devout protector expertise but I checked with my group and there is only 1 person not using a shield so I didnt think it was worth it. Though I suppose if I'm not using wands there isnt much else, except for Mighty Crusader which kills the rapier

The theme I took Underdark Envoy is unfortunatly tied to the character so no fey-beast for me.

I'll probably take Will or Bard of all trades then take the other at 10, and try to fit accurate symbol in there somewhere.

Unfortunatly I am now stuck without a CA feat. Frost cheese is looked down on by the DM so I probably wont be able to do that
Devout protector expertise gives a +1 shield bonus to AC.  It does not require the person who gets the bonus to have a shield bonus.  In this way, it is beneficial to the entire group if they do not use a shield.

If you, or the rest of your party, can reliably slow the a target, you could take vicious advantage.   
Devout protector expertise gives a +1 shield bonus to AC.  It does not require the person who gets the bonus to have a shield bonus.  In this way, it is beneficial to the entire group if they do not use a shield.

If you, or the rest of your party, can reliably slow the a target, you could take vicious advantage.   

Not sure I agree (on the off chance anyone cares about my thoughts).  Wearing an actual shield (or using something like Two-Weapon Defense, Rod Expertise or Hafted Defense) gives you a shield bonus to both AC and Reflex, Devout Protector Expertise only benefits AC.  It's nice if they don't have (and don't expect or intend to pick up) a source for a shield bonus, but I don't think it's worth giving up a shield bonus you already have.

Having said that, however, Devout Protector Expertise is still nice for feat economy if you're using one-handed weapons (and weapon attacks) and a holy symbol.

Devout protector expertise gives a +1 shield bonus to AC.  It does not require the person who gets the bonus to have a shield bonus.  In this way, it is beneficial to the entire group if they do not use a shield.

If you, or the rest of your party, can reliably slow the a target, you could take vicious advantage.   

Not sure I agree (on the off chance anyone cares about my thoughts).  Wearing an actual shield (or using something like Two-Weapon Defense, Rod Expertise or Hafted Defense) gives you a shield bonus to both AC and Reflex, Devout Protector Expertise only benefits AC.  It's nice if they don't have (and don't expect or intend to pick up) a source for a shield bonus, but I don't think it's worth giving up a shield bonus you already have.

Having said that, however, Devout Protector Expertise is still nice for feat economy if you're using one-handed weapons (and weapon attacks) and a holy symbol.




Most casters will be using dual implement spellcaster which will preclude using a shield.  A swordmage will not have a weapon/shield in the off hand due to losing 2AC because of it.  Rogues are unlikely to use a shield.  As a matter of fact, most strikers will not use a shield.  For each of them, +1 shield bonus from DPE is better than nothing.  And DPE gives the shield bonus to every OTHER person in the party.  So paladin uses longsword and shield, everyone ELSE gets +1 shield bonus to ac. 
Devout protector expertise gives a +1 shield bonus to AC.  It does not require the person who gets the bonus to have a shield bonus.  In this way, it is beneficial to the entire group if they do not use a shield.

If you, or the rest of your party, can reliably slow the a target, you could take vicious advantage.   

Not sure I agree (on the off chance anyone cares about my thoughts).  Wearing an actual shield (or using something like Two-Weapon Defense, Rod Expertise or Hafted Defense) gives you a shield bonus to both AC and Reflex, Devout Protector Expertise only benefits AC.  It's nice if they don't have (and don't expect or intend to pick up) a source for a shield bonus, but I don't think it's worth giving up a shield bonus you already have.

Having said that, however, Devout Protector Expertise is still nice for feat economy if you're using one-handed weapons (and weapon attacks) and a holy symbol.




Most casters will be using dual implement spellcaster which will preclude using a shield.  A swordmage will not have a weapon/shield in the off hand due to losing 2AC because of it.  Rogues are unlikely to use a shield.  As a matter of fact, most strikers will not use a shield.  For each of them, +1 shield bonus from DPE is better than nothing.  And DPE gives the shield bonus to every OTHER person in the party.  So paladin uses longsword and shield, everyone ELSE gets +1 shield bonus to ac. 

Like I said, the group-wide shield bonus is nice if they don't already have a shield bonus.  And DPE is still nice to pick up for feat economy even if the shield bonus never comes into play.

CA can actually depend on how melee orientated your party is so that tactically you work together to get CA or if there is a controller that picks spells that give CA e.g. Daze.

Yes Devout Protector Expertise is the way to go. One character benefits yay and others might change in the future you never know.

If you are going to take Superior Will you might also consider Disciple of Freedom (being grabbed also sucks) or Focused Mind (and Heroic Poise in Paragon).

Is there another skill monkey or leader in your party? From what you have said so far Defender should be your focus.

I have found that Vicious Advantage for some reason always works in the wrong order i.e. great i have combat advantage next round oh no the whole battlefield has changed and/or the conditions are gone. Not saying it doesnt work just that it is not as consistent as it might sound.
the feat Commanding Vow would give you a slide every time you mark, but that's two feats to get CA, maybe its an option if lasting frost is frowned upon?
If I was playing a character with a shield bonus, say via a shielding blade, and I had an ally with Devout Protector Expertise, I might upgrade to a Rhythm Blade, so I would get my shield bonus from my ally, and increase it with the Rhythm Blade. Someone using a shield might ditch it for an offhand weapon/implement, or a two hander. It just makes everyone better.

If you can't retrain your theme (which I don't really see why not, it's just game mechanics and can be fluffed to fit your needs), you can pick up Superior Reflexes for first round CA, then resort to your Hidden Weapon and theme power (if you ever actually have a minor action to use it). These plus potential CA from allies should suffice most of the time. Maybe you can convince one of your allies to pick up Pack Outcast if they qualify.
Well it looks like I'll be taking DPE just for the efficiency of it but unfortunatly I just found out we have a full paladin in the party so hes taking it as well, I basically went through and took out my multi mark powers, im pretty solidly locked into hybrid with the first session being in 2 days

Good news is that i also now know the full party comp, a mounted paladin (not Cav), Difficult Terrain focused Wiz, hybrid Warden| Executioner, Brav Warlord, and me. We are very defender heavy but our DM is experienced enough that he'll know not to throw super high HP monsters at us for times sake.

So this is what I'm looking at right now 


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Victor Hybrid option, level 8
Tiefling, Paladin/Bard
Hybrid Paladin Option: Hybrid Paladin Fortitude
Hybrid Bard Option: Hybrid Bard Reflex
Hybrid Talent Option: Bardic Virtue
Bardic Virtue Option: Virtue of Cunning
Con Artist (Con Artist Benefit)
Theme: Underdark Envoy

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 13, DEX 10, INT 16, WIS 16, CHA 22

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 13, DEX 10, INT 14, WIS 14, CHA 18


AC: 24 Fort: 18 Ref: 21 Will: 22
HP: 61 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 15

TRAINED SKILLS
Bluff +21, Dungeoneering +12, Religion +12, Thievery +10

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Arcana +11, Athletics +6, Diplomacy +17, Endurance +8, Heal +11, History +11, Insight +11, Intimidate +14, Nature +11, Perception +11, Stealth +9, Streetwise +14

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Underdark Envoy Attack: Insidious Commentary
Tiefling Racial Power: Infernal Wrath
Paladin Feature: Divine Challenge
Bard Feature: Majestic Word
Paladin Attack 1: Virtuous Strike
Bard Attack 1: Vicious Mockery
Paladin Attack 1: Fearsome Smite
Paladin Attack 1: Glorious Charge
Bard Utility 2: Moment of Escape
Bard Attack 3: Ballad of the Zombie King
Bard Attack 5: Satire of Bravery
Paladin Utility 6: Wrath of the Gods
Paladin Attack 7: Astral Thunder

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Superior Implement Training (Accurate symbol)
Level 4: Advantage of Cunning
Level 6: Imperious Majesty
Level 8: Devout Protector Expertise
Level 8: Bard of All Trades

ITEMS
Gem of Colloquy (heroic tier) x1
Shield of Eyes Light Shield x1
Hidden Rapier +2 x1
Burglar's Gloves x1
Imposter's Chainmail +2 x1
Accurate symbol of the Champion's Code +2 x1
Cloak of Distortion +2 x1
Acrobat Boots x1
====== End ======


You already have a full defender, and a full leader. You're not helping your party much by playing a leader|defender, when there is a total of half a bad striker and an annoying wizard. Your bravelord wants a few people with good basic attacks. If you still want a hybrid defender, that's fine but you should probably make the other half a striker. If you want to remain a Tiefling, I'd suggest perhaps a Swordmage|Warlock.
At this point I would like to make my character a hybrid Bard|Striker is Sorcerer or Warlock the best combo? I still want Bluff to be a major part of the character
At this point I would like to make my character a hybrid Bard|Striker is Sorcerer or Warlock the best combo? I still want Bluff to be a major part of the character


Warlock. I love Sorcerers but generally you want to MC as them, not hybrid.
well i rolled for my stats and i have 18,14,14,13,10,8

what do i select as my pact? i was thinking of maybe a Cha based infernal with the Avernus at-will, either that or dark pact and at that point what do i hybrid talent for?
Build on Eldritch Strike, go with charge kit. Power selection will be most critical. Encounter powers should be Blunder for a double hitter (slide someone to you and whack them with Eldritch Strike), Delban's Deadly Attention and Prescient Warning for immediates. Go with Sorcerer King pact for Mindbite Scorn. Shadow Walk is probably your best Hybrid Talent option. On the Bard side, grab Skald Training, and either Song of Savagery (if your allies have well built characters) or Song of Serendipity (if they have poorly built characters). You should be attacking with Eldritch Strike every turn, dealing striker damage features, and triggering leader bonuses all at the same time, while not sitting idle for immediate actions. That should be a pretty good chassis.

Edit: Side note, on an action point turn you will be eldritch striking 3 times (charge eldritch strike, blunder eldritch strike, bravelord eldritch strike), that's 3 allies you could be handing +4 damage to with Song of Savagery.
Thanks Mengu that sounds great you guys have been super helpful, i think im gonna go with Mengu's charging focused build

EDIT: Does multiclassing swordmage make sense for the weapliment thing? just in case i like some of the later implement powers? or maybe a martial class for deft blade at paragon?
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