Lazylord no hybrid

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I've seen quite a few good lazylord builds but almost all of them are hybrid bard. My friend whose campaign I'm looking to join has expressly banned hybrids though. So I'm trying to look for a way to build an effective lazylord without hybridding. Any ideas?
I'm not an expert but I've read the guide so let me give this a shot:

1. STR warlords are better

2. To buld a lazy one, put 16s in CHA and INT, go pixie, tiefling or eladrin and pick the powers in the "No attack" sections.
Warlord can hybrid well with a lot of things.  Warlord|Ardent, Warlord|Bard, Warlord|Artificer etc. So its not just bards.

What hydralisk said is about half true, STR warlords aren't better for every group but better for many.  And basically just take powers that don't require you to attack.  Being a straight warlord will make you a little worse starting out because there aren't a lot of great dailies that don't require you to hit early on, but it will round itself out fairly quickly.

Edit: Question1 - Why does he ban hybrids?  Question 2 - Why do you want to be lazy specifically?
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And here's a link to the Warlord guide that hydralisk mentioned.
And if you're gonna make a lazy character, as your only character, what are you planning to do during combat? Provide the team with snacks and take a nap?


Please be very aware of what it means to have a lazy character, and how it will effect you during game play.  
I've seen quite a few good lazylord builds but almost all of them are hybrid bard. My friend whose campaign I'm looking to join has expressly banned hybrids though. So I'm trying to look for a way to build an effective lazylord without hybridding. Any ideas?



In a nutshell, lazylords sacrifice the full range of daily and encounter powers so as to be better at utility powers. As that likely means they're going with Int and Cha, they very naturally can pick up all kinds of good attack powers from Int or Cha classes if they hybrid with them.

So I would duplicate that effect with multi-classing, probably with Wizard or maybe Psion to create an artificial Thoughtswitch. Or I'd MC Bard and pick Daring Blade as your Paragon Path - that will let you pick Str Warlord powers while dumping Str once past Heroic.

And as others have mentioned, lazylords are basically the 4e equivalent of watching paint dry. 
Eh, they're plenty fun to play.  For the people who like playing them.

(IMHO, Lazylords are awesome.  It's just that attacking warlords get better attack powers, and almost as good utilities.  So non-lazy warlords are, in fact, better.  Which, given how good lazylords can be, is in fact kinda scary)

Edit: Re build.  If you're gonna go lazy, go lazy.  Bracers of Mental might give you one of the real encounter powers to work with... but otherwise, enable enable enable.  Go with Battle Captain or Infernal Tactician like every other enabling-focused warlord, cause the bonuses are just too big to pass up.  Find/buy items you give/loan to your strikers.  Don't take expertise feats.  Take advantage of being lazy, and hand out silly large bonuses silly often.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Eh, they're plenty fun to play.  For the people who like playing them.

(IMHO, Lazylords are awesome.  It's just that attacking warlords get better attack powers, and almost as good utilities.  So non-lazy warlords are, in fact, better.  Which, given how good lazylords can be, is in fact kinda scary) 



+1

This. Int Warlords have great utilities at 2,6,10,16, and 22. And get stellar powers throughout. They're basically just an interestingish offshoot, than excelling legitimately in places a normal warlord cannot.
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Warlord can hybrid well with a lot of things.  Warlord|Ardent, Warlord|Bard, Warlord|Artificer etc. So its not just bards.

What hydralisk said is about half true, STR warlords aren't better for every group but better for many.  And basically just take powers that don't require you to attack.  Being a straight warlord will make you a little worse starting out because there aren't a lot of great dailies that don't require you to hit early on, but it will round itself out fairly quickly.

Edit: Question1 - Why does he ban hybrids?  Question 2 - Why do you want to be lazy specifically?



1. The reason specifically he forbid hybrids was another player loves char oping too much and using builds that just make the game no fun like Warlock|Paladin Hellish Rebuke abuse and endless turn Avenger|Rangers. 

2. We have a rather large party and I want to be useful for combat without being in the way or being a repeat of a class we already have.
The reason specifically he forbid hybrids was another player loves char oping too much and using builds that just make the game no fun like [...] Avenger|Rangers.

 Um, what the heck is an Avenger|Ranger getting you that a Ranger isn't?  Free Morninglord qualifcation w/o the MC feat?  But you've got to buy your AC back (with a divine MC one assumes) so that's not any ahead.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Warlord can hybrid well with a lot of things.  Warlord|Ardent, Warlord|Bard, Warlord|Artificer etc. So its not just bards.

What hydralisk said is about half true, STR warlords aren't better for every group but better for many.  And basically just take powers that don't require you to attack.  Being a straight warlord will make you a little worse starting out because there aren't a lot of great dailies that don't require you to hit early on, but it will round itself out fairly quickly.

Edit: Question1 - Why does he ban hybrids?  Question 2 - Why do you want to be lazy specifically?



1. The reason specifically he forbid hybrids was another player loves char oping too much and using builds that just make the game no fun like Warlock|Paladin Hellish Rebuke abuse and endless turn Avenger|Rangers. 

2. We have a rather large party and I want to be useful for combat without being in the way or being a repeat of a class we already have.



Hellish Rebuke only triggers once a turn so thats not really abuse so much as just a double tap (which is quite good, but still). What do you mean by the Avenger|Ranger getting an endless turn? Did the player just take forever to do his rolls as a critfisher or what?

Those aren't even two hybrids I would consider especially powerful (Warlock|Paladin can be strong, but not amazing in my experience).

The large party part is somewhat understandable, but you really would be better off being a normal warlord.  Even a lazy lord is going to have a lot of off-turn powers so if you are worried about table-clogging warlord might not be the best way to go.  If you can stand playing one it might be better to play an E-class if you are looking to just make your turns quick and simple.  Slayer/Hexblade comes to mind. 
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
The reason specifically he forbid hybrids was another player loves char oping too much and using builds that just make the game no fun like [...] Avenger|Rangers.

 Um, what the heck is an Avenger|Ranger getting you that a Ranger isn't?  Free Morninglord qualifcation w/o the MC feat?  But you've got to buy your AC back (with a divine MC one assumes) so that's not any ahead.



I'd lay money on the fact that this guy was using his OoE on all the double tap powers and minor action attacks from Ranger (Twinstrike, Offhand strike, etc).
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Warlord can hybrid well with a lot of things.  Warlord|Ardent, Warlord|Bard, Warlord|Artificer etc. So its not just bards.

What hydralisk said is about half true, STR warlords aren't better for every group but better for many.  And basically just take powers that don't require you to attack.  Being a straight warlord will make you a little worse starting out because there aren't a lot of great dailies that don't require you to hit early on, but it will round itself out fairly quickly.

Edit: Question1 - Why does he ban hybrids?  Question 2 - Why do you want to be lazy specifically?



1. The reason specifically he forbid hybrids was another player loves char oping too much and using builds that just make the game no fun like Warlock|Paladin Hellish Rebuke abuse and endless turn Avenger|Rangers. 

2. We have a rather large party and I want to be useful for combat without being in the way or being a repeat of a class we already have.

I prefer Warlock|Paladin with eyebite myself.

I think the avenger|ranger was doing it wrong.  Make him read the hybrid rules.  Closely.  You don't get the oath with twin-strike. 
And get him a second d20.


Nothing wrong with a striaght lazy lord.  It's just not quite as strong as a Str warlord, or a hybrid lazy.  Just make sure you have some people with good basic attacks.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

And if you're gonna make a lazy character, as your only character, what are you planning to do during combat? Provide the team with snacks and take a nap?


Please be very aware of what it means to have a lazy character, and how it will effect you during game play.  



He'll order around allies, of course.  Some people actually really enjoy that ;)
And as others have mentioned, lazylords are basically the 4e equivalent of watching paint dry. 



I totally disagree with this.
And as others have mentioned, lazylords are basically the 4e equivalent of watching paint dry. 



I totally disagree with this.



I grant an attack. I grant an attack. I grant an attack. I grant an attack. I grant 2 attacks. I grant an attack and a charge. I grant an attack. I move and grant an attack.

:shrug:

Almost all the options that make them different than regular Warlords involve them not doing anything. And because they don't have any Str-based options to use, if their shtick doesn't work, it really doesn't work. As in, "Hey, the MBA expert is stunned and no one else has a BA?"

Where the regular Warlord can do everything they do and when granting attacks doesn't work, he can then use sky blue warlord powers to grant better effects than what the lazylord was doing.
And as others have mentioned, lazylords are basically the 4e equivalent of watching paint dry. 



I totally disagree with this.



I grant an attack. I grant an attack. I grant an attack. I grant an attack. I grant 2 attacks. I grant an attack and a charge. I grant an attack. I move and grant an attack.

:shrug:

Almost all the options that make them different than regular Warlords involve them not doing anything. And because they don't have any Str-based options to use, if their shtick doesn't work, it really doesn't work. As in, "Hey, the MBA expert is stunned and no one else has a BA?"

Where the regular Warlord can do everything they do and when granting attacks doesn't work, he can then use sky blue warlord powers to grant better effects than what the lazylord was doing.



As long as it is agreeable to both parties (the lord and the weapon) I let the warlord roll everything for the character he is swinging with if he grants attack on his turn.  So he rolls for things like Direct the Strike.  If they both roll, then they both roll (Death from Two Sides means both players roll).  That has taken care of basically all of those issues in my groups.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
And as others have mentioned, lazylords are basically the 4e equivalent of watching paint dry. 



I totally disagree with this.



I grant an attack. I grant an attack. I grant an attack. I grant an attack. I grant 2 attacks. I grant an attack and a charge. I grant an attack. I move and grant an attack.

:shrug:

Almost all the options that make them different than regular Warlords involve them not doing anything.



But they are doing something!  Granting an attack is totally doing something.  And you generally get to make the most important choice: who gets to make the attack, and what their target should be.
That's not a choice. A choice is "I'm lactose intolerant but I really love pepperjack, do I want cheese on my sandwich?" Who you grant an attack and against which target is entirely Math, Lazylords can be played at high tactical proficiency by the Basic code I wrote in middle school. Not saying "if you find this fun, you're as dumb as a middle schooler" since I personally find attack granting and buffing to make the game a bit more enjoyable socially, it's just not a choice, it's math.

@Naez13: I would like to seriously suggest your DM double-check the rules for Hybrids before banning them outright, there's a lot lost at all levels of the builds. However, if he considered Paladin|Warlock with rebuke to be overpowered and the player wasn't cheating, then you have a different issue ... Paladin|Warlock isn't overpowered in any respect except maybe keeping itself alive, at low levels, or against tactically inept DMs. It's top end is nowhere near that of other Hybrids or multiple Single classes, so if I had to guess, the problem is with both the DM being inexperienced at challenging optimized PCs and the Optimizer trying to be "better than everyone so he can win".

If the whole party isn't optimized by the same amount, it's not very fun.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I wish I could get the fighter in our party who's constantly playing games on her phone to play a lazy lord.  When she's not paying attention (which is never) I could just say, eh, she grants me an attack.
I've been messing with it and it seems the best way to play it is just to have a Str warlord  with reach and pick up attack granting powers. That gives me the verstility of if I wish sitting back and playing lazylord with my at-wills and every once in a while jumping in to deal a little of my own damage and still give attacks to my allies. 
I've been messing with it and it seems the best way to play it is just to have a Str warlord  with reach and pick up attack granting powers. That gives me the verstility of if I wish sitting back and playing lazylord with my at-wills and every once in a while jumping in to deal a little of my own damage and still give attacks to my allies. 



No commenting on the real bear in the thread? (How the Ranger|Avenger was doing what he did?)

Although if you found what you want and like it, more power to ya.  If I may ask, what is the starting level and race you picked?
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
That's not a choice. A choice is "I'm lactose intolerant but I really love pepperjack, do I want cheese on my sandwich?" Who you grant an attack and against which target is entirely Math, Lazylords can be played at high tactical proficiency by the Basic code I wrote in middle school. Not saying "if you find this fun, you're as dumb as a middle schooler" since I personally find attack granting and buffing to make the game a bit more enjoyable socially, it's just not a choice, it's math.



1. Intelligent play is all math.  It's constrained optimization.  There are entire graduate programs in math and CS departments devoted to the study of that category of problem.

2. If your code just maximizes expected damage dealt then it is distinctly suboptimal (though perhaps sufficient for a minimal leve of competence).  There are in fact no simple-form objective functions that accurately capture the true objective function.
It would not, it was an expected value program, probably didn't have quite the variable input for a larger fight or handle Blasters, but it could handle figuring out which target to attack to maximize PC Actions::NPC Actions (ie. would choose to DTS a creature 1 hit from dyingover DTFS a creature that is at full if both would act before getting hit again)

Tactics is also part psychology, so I have to disagree that intelligent play is 'all math'.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
It would not, it was an expected value program, probably didn't have quite the variable input for a larger fight or handle Blasters, but it could handle figuring out which target to attack to maximize PC Actions::NPC Actions (ie. would choose to DTS a creature 1 hit from dyingover DTFS a creature that is at full if both would act before getting hit again)

Tactics is also part psychology, so I have to disagree that intelligent play is 'all math'.



Especially if the DM leads you to believe something is a standard when it is a minion, or vice versa.  If everything was known when combat was started you could do that, but then combat would be boring IMO.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
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