Sorcerer Spell Optimization 3,5

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So I started a new character a Sylph  (sorcerer) after 2 of the 3  present for the game session died. You knwo the story the survivor told the rest of us to go after the bad guys which was a bad idear so he did not go himself.

I am playing both the race and the class Sylph after thise rules
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
I am currently level 6 and got caster level sorcerer 6. HD 3 and Sylph bonuses such as SR, and Ginvibility 4 times per day.  Note our GM has allot of house rules so number of known spells and feat amount is not following official 3,5 rules.

I have taken the feats: Hower, Flyby attack, Silent Spell, Spell Penetration.

level 0 spells: 9 slots 4 used on detect magic, read magic, mage hand, mending

level 1 spells: 9 slots 4 used on comprehend langue, mage armor, magic missile, feather fall

level 2 spells: 6 slots non used

level 3 spells: 4 slots non used 

I have not had the time ingame nor decided yet to which other spells to get. I offcause have a list of possible spells I would like, but what I am realy after is some ideas from all you outthere with good ideas.  My characters strength is her good flying skills and being invisible. So far she been  making a 5 foot step away from enemies then casting magic,  and flying away. In future I plan to add Ventriloquism to confuse where I am casting from, but spells effect and noise will stil be visible or I will simply cast the spells as silent spell.
Any idears on how to make this character fun to play spell vise is greatly appriciated.

I am also looking for way to protect myself from glitterdust, dismisial/banishment( in later levels) and the like. 
What are the house rules? Also, search around for "Spells that f*cking kill people. That should tell you what spells to look for.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
There are ALLOT I mean allot allot of house rules I realy cannot list them here, most are about around about how classes and races are build up and is not relevant for this discussion. Spells, feats, magical items, combat system are not affected.

Finding the most overpowered spell does not always qualify as fun but so far I generaly looked for spells with long range.
Do you want to blast enemies to death(typical sorcer) or do a bit more control/utility once you answer that we can talk about what spells you need
I would like to be a bit more controll utility, with 1-2 dmg spells per level. My knw. nature, survival (mountains), escape artist, spot, listen, tumble move silently and hide skills are pritty high. I offcause also have concentration. All thise skills giving me a good starting point for a bit more untraditional sorcerer.

RPG vise I cannot go to deep in a dark road as my group/society would frown upon it. Neither am I looking to damage nature as my race is partly nature guardians. My first langue is Auron (not sylvan as in the race description) and I am offcause from the elemental plane of air. 

Going full out would also be suicidal, I need defence to avoid dmg. The campaign is also rich on traps, poison, magic. 
I think (not 100%) there's a feat in book of exalted deeds to not let your spells harm nature, also an interesting note would be to go for orb spells and avoid area of effect or maybe just get one of those or two. For control you will want to have some debuffs/buffs like bestow curse/enlarge person. And to truely control the battlefields wall spells and crowd control are key, such as the wall of fire(or ice) force wall, force cage, stone wall etc, I'm afb but when/if I get home tonight ill look up some highlights for each level.
Finally for damage spells go look at something like the mail man or the nuker/#w1 snopiah for some good ideas on offensive damage dealers. And the treantmonk school guide is a good list of control and "god wizard" spells
Hat Books are allowed and What are the other members of your party?
The nature think is nothing my character is fanatic about, all I meant is I am not going to cast fireballs left and right. But I personally had not considered that all area of effects also hurst the random bug in area. I had considered taking lightning ball but I guess it can enligthen a dry savana.

There no limits on books as long I do not take something overpowered and it fits my character. But we should keep it to the canons books as  PHB,  spells compendium, complete mage and so on. But if there a single thing or two sensible things from other books that is allright. My race/class is not cannon itself.

The other members of the party is

Human paladin from a honourble warrior god very lowfull fellow
Human priest from another very lawfull god follow the laws god
Elf sorcerer
Halfling monk
Iser (warrior race) warrior

I think they are all lawfull neutral. my character is stil very young and I n ot decided on alignment yet so she starts at NN. My bet is the res of the group pulls her in the lawfull direction. Setting is ancient Egypt.
If you have access to sandstorm then searing spell and dessicating spells might be quite handy. Searing spell let's your fire spells do half damage to creature with fire immunity, but conversly energy substitution is much easier done on a sorcerer and is a better way (thought I would throw searing spell in for completion sake)
This is actually firsttime I heard about that book. If Iam going to go the fire way it would require quite allot of spels ot improve my fire dmg and void I hurt nature with it. I realy doubt that the right way for this character. But I will take a look at the book if my local klub has it.
You'll want Wings of Cover. And the list that I suggested doesn't include fireball. I'll find a link for you.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Here's the list of spells that kill people.  You'll find that a lot of them don't do direct damage.  And here's a list of the best sorcerer spells.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
I would like to be a bit more controll utility, with 1-2 dmg spells per level.

If you said "I want to blast people nonstop" i would not recomend more than 1 damage spell per level.  If you want to do utility stuff, I would recomend 1 every other level.  Magic missile, and lesser orb of [your choice] and call it good enough.

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"

I am also looking for way to protect myself from glitterdust, dismisial/banishment( in later levels) and the like. 

Ultimately, it's going to be hard to stop people from finding you at higher levels, but if you're enjoying your aerial mobility and can handle some solid Concentration checks, you could consider adding the Mobile Spellcasting feat to the Flyby Attack you already have.  I don't remember offhand whether or not dimensional anchor stops you from being dismissed or banished, but it's a possibility.

Summoning could be a good option for you to look into, since you can achieve basic competency with relative ease (a selection of summon spells and a feat or two), it's less direct if you want to keep attention away from yourself, monsters may cause less collateral damage for your party to get worried about than blasting spells, and you get a decent range of flexibility through the abilities of various creatures.

The basics of mind control (suggestion, dominate person, and so on) are likewise relatively easy to get and fairly flexible to use, as long as you're happy working around those targets that are immune.

You've already got a range of suggestions on other fronts, so these are just a couple of extra ideas that are easy to implement, even in a mostly core game.

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Anyway, back to the point. The key weakness of a sorcerer is that they are limited by their spells known, so your best bet is to pick and chose spells that service needs that come up frequently and invest in staffs for neat things that are useful, but not top priority. a good example is if you find yourself short party members often, summoning monsters is a decent way to go since it throws another body into the mix that dosent requier a share of the loot or even needs to be healed during or after combat (coincedently even if you have a full party summoning isn't a bad route to go for the same reasons, it just means your party is less dependent on you to call out a critter to take hits unless something bad is swinging it's mitts at you). 

Damaging spells aren't bad, but it takes a bit of work to know how to utilize them properly for maximum output and potential. a decent starter for you would actually probably be wings of flurry (found in the book dragon magic I believe) since it deals force damage which few creatures in the game have resistance too, and even fewer have immunity too, has no damage cap so it scales with your caster level making it useful at most levels, and has the chance of denying enemy's their action (it either stuns them or dazes them, I cant quite recall right now and I'm away from that particular book at the moment). As a 4th level spell the save DC can get easy to pass at higher levels for most, but as steven0 pointed out heighten spell can help you in that regard.

Save or dies can be potent if you have a high spell DC associated with them, ending an encounter with a single spell slot can be both fun and impressive, however most save or die spells have a catch twenty-two that if the do save it usually results in nothing happening to them as most spells like this don't carry any secondary effect if they pass, or just down right bad ones. Mixing with summoned creatures can be effective in large group encounters since you have a whole set of actions to toy around with via your summoned critter, so a passed save on your phantasmal killer isn't to bad since you have a elemental to smack the target around if he lives.

I can probably think of a bit more advice later but I'm in the middle of house cleaning and just taking a break, so I may pop back in later. As a final bit of advice, check out the list draco linked you too, it's got a good run down of some of the best spells for their level at outright killing things.
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Well, that escalated quickly...
And I missed it!
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls

Cyclone_Joker That article has some interesting ideas but setting concept is just to far away for my character, but I sure will give it a proper reread to pick up some tips, which can work with my build.


Krusk you sure have a point although both magic missile and lesser orb are level 1 spells.I regret though taking magic missile over lesser orb, that was not well thought through.


I will have to change that at some point. Now I just need to find a level 2 or 3 spell for additional blasting. Maybe the spell Combust as mentioned in the article Cyclone linked earlier. I am the kinda tumble ninja girl


ORC_Reaper thanks for keeping my thread clean


Slagger_the_Chuul yeahh I had a look at Dimensional anchor and it does say "Any creatureor object struck by the ray is covered with a shimmering emerald field that completely blocks extra dimensional travel." but it would also mean I would have to turn my fingertips toward myself and blast myself with it.. I guess I can fail saving throw at will but this is surely not how the spell was intended. Another option I thought of was a ring of counterspell, problem is of cause it can only be prepared to block one at the time. There is also the ring of improved counterspell but that kinda to pricey for the next many levels. The mobile spell caster sounds like a nice feat. I think my Gm would accept that one.
I thought of getting summon 3 but I doubt I go summoning all the way and get feats for it


Lashius - Thanks am taking your advise into account.


At this point I am considering going for these feats Heighten spell, combat casting and mobile spell casting. Getting some control spells as web, ventriloquism, stinking cloud, and later Dimensional door, Evard’s Black Tentacles., solid fog, orb of cold or force, the links from Draco was really quite useful. There quite allot of level 4 spells I like. Maybe I could throw in some mind affects as Slagger_the_Chuul mentioned if I had the spell slots for it.


My idea with this build is controlling the battlefield and with Dimensional door I can fly swiftly to my allies and move them around on the battlefield. I can drop in swiftly in mid battlefield drop of a touch spell and be out again. I do need to work more on this plan and see how I can make it work but RL hit me and I need to be getting to bed now. thanks all for your awesome help and suggestions.

Sorry for mentioning this but why are you considering Heighten Spell?  I once suggested it but then CJ just tells you to ignore that.  If you're wondering what the Orc "cleaned up" it stems from that post (two posts after that one were deleted) which still remains although I guess I don't know what Lashius may have said to get edited.
Why should I value Cyclone_Joker advise above yours ? and your not the only one suggesting it. Cyclone_Joker link for a direction I do not intent to take my sorcerer.

About the cleanup ? I do not know I do not care it is the past. 
Orb of Force is the best of the orb spells, for one simple reason: there are very, VERY few creature immune to force, and also very few ways to gain immunity to force if you don't already have it.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls

So I have been working on my character ideas and I cannot quite get it to fit my original ideas with a mobile spell caster. I simply don’t have all those Touch attacks which could be great for this build. I get a great battlefield controll, but that is about it. I here listed my potential spells first level of spell, then how many slot I got at level 6 and then the maximum spell slots I get for that level. I only planned to level 5 At this point which properly is a mistake as I cannot see the big picture. If you got any ideas and comment they be welcome. Not I taken spells not from the wizard/sorcerer spell list as it possible for sorcerer in this campaign to do due to house rule as long it is not healing or divine spell.


lv 0 9-9
Detect magic (got)
Read Magic (got)
Prestitigation (got)
Mage Hand (got)

Mending
Detect Poison
Open Close
Message
Caltrops (CS)
Silent Portal (CS

lv 1 9-9
Comprehend Language(got)
Mage Armor (got)
Magic Missile(got)
Feather Fall(got)
(* priority)
*True Casting (CM)
*ventriloquism
*True Strike
*Entangle (druid spell)
*Lesser orb of cold
*Buzzing Bee (SC)
Hold Portal
Shield
Grease
Unseen Servant
Tensers Floating Disc

lv 2 6-7
Combust
web
Hearth of Air (CM)
Quick Potion (SC)
Blindness/Deafnes
Spectrall Hand
Mirror Image

lv3 4-7
Ray of Rust (SC)
Dispel magic
stinking cloud
Summon monster III
Lightning Bolt
Haste
Heath of Water (CM)
Dimension Step

lv 4 0-7
Evard’s Black Tentacles
Dimension Door
Solid Fog
Wall of Fire
Enervation
Dimensional anchor
Orb of Force

lv 5 0-7
Teleportation
Arcane Fasion
Fewer Dreams
Deathward (cleric)
Wall of Force
Dimension shuffle
SUmmon monster V

Feats
The feats I got now is. Note according to house rule different feats cost different amount of points, when gaining feat one get 10 feat points. I am not sure about the cost of all the different feats I have not purchased yet

The once I already got
Flyby attack 8
Silent Spell 5
Hower 8
Spell Penetration 8
At level 6 spent 29 received 30 left 1

Mobile spell casting 10
Combat casting 9
At level 9 received 50 spent 48 left 2

Greater spell Penetration 8
At level 12 received 60 spent 56 left 4

Heighten spell (free meta magic feat)
At level 13 received 60 spent 56 left 4, 1 free meta magic

Persistent spell 15
Improved fly 8
At level 15 received 80 spent 79 left 1, 1 free meta magic

Improved counterspell 10
Empower spell (free meta magic feat)
At level 18 received 90 spent 89 left 1, 2 free meta magic