An Untyped Damage Rogue

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An untyped damage rogue that uses Daggermaster + MC Avenger to do very solid damage in a nova round and okay damage after that. Due to Symbol of Victory, it should have a consistent encounter nova in most games. It frontloads a high enough crit chance(73% of at least one crit) to get solid KPR.


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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======

Rogue_test, level 12
Human, Rogue (Scoundrel), Daggermaster
Rogue Tactics Option: Cunning Sneak
Rogue Option: Scoundrel Weapon Talent
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)
Theme: Werewolf

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 9, CON 13, DEX 23, INT 13, WIS 15, CHA 11

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 12, DEX 18, INT 12, WIS 12, CHA 10


AC: 27 Fort: 21 Ref: 28 Will: 22
HP: 90 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 22

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Bluff +11, Dungeoneering +13, Insight +13, Perception +13, Religion +12, Stealth +17, Thievery +17

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +7, Athletics +5, Diplomacy +6, Endurance +7, Heal +8, History +7, Intimidate +8, Nature +8, Streetwise +6

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Werewolf Utility: Wolf Shape
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Avenger Feature: Oath of Enmity
Rogue Attack 1: Piercing Strike
Rogue Attack 1: Deft Strike
Rogue Attack 1: Dazing Strike
Rogue Attack 1: Spinning Blade Leap
Werewolf Utility 2: Wolf's Vitality
Rogue Attack 3: Low Slash
Rogue Attack 3: Shadow Steel Roll
Rogue Attack 5: Bloodbath
Rogue Utility 6: Ignoble Escape
Rogue Attack 7: Circling Predator
Rogue Attack 9: Knockout
Rogue Utility 10: Acrobat's Escape
Daggermaster Attack 11: Critical Opportunity
Daggermaster Utility 12: Meditation of the Blade

FEATS
Light Blade Expertise
Level 1: Cunning Stalker
Level 2: Backstabber
Level 4: Disciple of Divine Wrath
Level 8: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 10: Melee Training (Dexterity)
Level 11: Two-Weapon Opening
Level 11: Reserve Maneuver
Level 12: Weapon Focus (Light blade)

ITEMS
Claw Gloves x1
Bloodiron Dagger +3 x1
Magic Leather Armor +3 x1
Amulet of Protection +3 x1
Symbol of Victory +2 x1
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1
Vicious Dagger +2 x1
====== End ======

Base DPR:
1d4+16+1d10(w/CA) at +23 to hit with CA. Total of 24 on average.
Critical Hit: +3d10 immediately, +3d10 at start of turn. Total of 16.5+16.5 or 33. Max damage = 30, total of 63. On first crit of turn, get a free action MBA.
+6 Dex
+3 Enhancement Bonus
+2 Iron Armbands of Power
+2 Weapon Focus
+1 TWF
+2 Light Blade Expertise(w/CA)

Expected Damage:
With Oath: .99 hits, .28 crits. Or .71 normal hits. 24*.71+63*.28 = 34.7
Odds are that there will be 2.84 hits(.71*4, ignoring that Low Slash attacks Reflex) and 1.12 crits in a 4 attack sequence. 34.7*4 = 138.8.

There will be at least one critical hit 73% of the time and still be a hit 71% of the time when there is no critical hit on the last shot. This means expected sneak attack damage is 24*.73+13.5*.71*(1-.73) or 20.1 damage.

There will be at least one critical hit 73% of the time, and an MBA with a +2 Vicious Dagger is +22 with CA, doing 1d4+13+1d10. With Oath, this represents a 98% to-hit chance, 9.75% of which will be critical hits. .73*(21*.90.25+60*.0975) or 18.1 damage.

138.8+20.1+18.1 = 177 expected damage from the following Nova:

Nova:
Minor: Oath of Enmity
Standard: Shadow Steel Roll Shift Speed(8), make an attack.
Minor: Low Slash
AP: Standard: Ciricling Predator

-------

Without Oath using Piercing Strike vs. Reflex outside Nova Round
.80 hits/.15 crits (24+13.5)*.80+(63+24)*.15 +.15*(21*.70+60*.15) = 46.6 damage

Notes:
I don't yet have Superior Will, Improved Initiative, Superior Reflexes, Nimble Blade, and Two-Weapon Defense is low-hanging fruit. Feats are tough. The problems with feats won't likely clear up in Epic, either.
The build should be a bit tougher than expected given defenses - the utility 2 for Regen 4 when bloodied is reasonably easy to trigger.
At 13th, should be able to pick up one of the various Sky Blue encounter options by exchanging Dazing Strike for Vaulting Charge or Shadow Steel Roll and then using Reserve Maneuver to pick up Darting Strike, Startling Offensive, or Snap Shot.

Feats still needed:
Superior Will, Improved Initiative, Superior Reflexes, Nimble Blade, Two-Weapon Defense, Deft Blade

Items on wish list:
Ring of Giants(13th)

Epic: Divine Mastery = 2nd use of Oath of Enmity. Martial Mastery = 2nd use of Tumbling Strike. i.e. mini-nova on 2nd target on the 2nd round if 1st target dies in the first round. 

Feats still needed:
Martial Mastery(2nd use of Tumbling Strike), Divine Mastery(2nd use of Oath of Enmity), Long Step, Improved Initiative -> Superior Initiative
8th level version:
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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Rogue_test, level 8
Human, Rogue (Scoundrel)
Rogue Tactics Option: Cunning Sneak
Rogue Option: Scoundrel Weapon Talent
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)
Theme: Samurai

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 12, DEX 22, INT 12, WIS 14, CHA 10

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 12, DEX 18, INT 12, WIS 12, CHA 10


AC: 24 Fort: 17 Ref: 24 Will: 18
HP: 69 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 17

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +15, Athletics +8, Dungeoneering +11, Insight +11, Perception +11, Religion +10, Stealth +15, Thievery +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +5, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +6, Endurance +5, Heal +6, History +5, Intimidate +6, Nature +6, Streetwise +4

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Samurai Utility: Iaijutsu
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Avenger Feature: Oath of Enmity
Rogue Attack 1: Piercing Strike
Rogue Attack 1: Deft Strike
Rogue Attack 1: Dazing Strike
Rogue Attack 1: Press the Advantage
Rogue Utility 2: Agile Footwork
Rogue Attack 3: Low Slash
Rogue Attack 5: Bloodbath
Rogue Utility 6: Ignoble Escape
Rogue Attack 7: Circling Predator

FEATS
Level 1: Improved Initiative
Level 1: Light Blade Expertise
Level 2: Cunning Stalker
Level 4: Disciple of Divine Wrath
Level 6: Backstabber
Level 8: Two Weapon Fighting

ITEMS
Symbol of Victory +2 x1
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1
Amulet of Protection +1 x1
Veteran's Leather Armor +1 x1
Quicksilver Blade Dagger +2 x1
Shielding Blade Dagger +1 x1
====== End ======




A variant of my untyped damage rogue optimized around Heroic tier. Basic assumption is that you'll be able to retrain out of the theme once you hit Paragon and go into Daggermaster as the Paragon Path option.

The goal of the build is to win initiative against all enemies(+16 at level 8), shift 3 squares before going, and therefore be able to critical hit on an 18-20. You then do the following on round 1, hopefully to a nearby frontline enemy:
Minor: Oath of Enmity
AP: Standard: Deft Strike - move 2, strike
Standard: Circling Predator
Minor: Low Slash

+20 vs AC with CA+Vet's Armor, so hits on a 2, 0 for Low Slash. 99.75% hitting. .28 crit chance if won init against all enemies, .975 if not. Do 1d4+12, 16+2d6 on crit with 1w attacks. Chance of at least 1 crit = 73%. Sneak does 2d8 or average of 9. So...
(14.5*.7175)*4+(23*.28)*4+.73*16+.27*.7175*9 = 80.8 damage.

Because the build spent an action point, it gains +1 to hit, defenses, so on round 1, it has a solid AC = level+17, and some options to escape once it pulls off the nova. Obviously, if leveled up organically has some better items to choose than the ones I took.
 
Done. Thoughts? Mostly a thought experiment about how to not use Frost damage.
Bloodiron will almost never trigger.

How about wraithblade instead? 
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Your Nova is 45? Yikes...
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
There must be a typo. Rogues should be hitting for about that much at will with Piercing Strike.
Bloodiron will almost never trigger.

I've seen bloodiron trigger rather regularly.  It does require substantial metagaming though.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Your Nova is 45? Yikes...

I believe that's at-will DPR. Nova is 181.9.
Your Nova is 45? Yikes...

I believe that's at-will DPR. Nova is 181.9.



Yes. Nova is 181.9. Standard at-will DPR is 45(and I'm forgetting Reflex, so actually a touch higher)
I'm going to use a slightly fuzzier math on this one*. The ballpark values I'm seeing and using are:
- 24 Damage per normal hit. 
- 23 Damage on TWO MBA.
- 47 on a crit (30+16.5, not counting second instance of bloodiron for reasons that will be explained below).
- SA damage value of 13.5, 24 on a crit. 

For a practical nova, you would hold off on applying SA until you crit (or the last attack in the sequence if you fail to land a crit), which happens 73% of the time and generates another 23 damage instance. Your damage instances are thus:
24, 24, 24, 71, 23 = 166 damage. In other words, 73% of the time, your nova will do at least 166 average rolled damage, easily performing a kill vs SMHP 120 (in fact, your TWO might overflow into waste). The other 27% of the time, you'll do 96 damage, falling slightly shy.

This is a pretty reasonably built rogue with an acceptable nova sequence.

*The numbers are not exact, but the importance is to demonstrate concept and reduce factors to a binary state of kill/not kill rather than a full accurate estimate of NDPR.

--

Issues I have with this build:

1. Weretheme + Claw Gloves is a pretty clever implementation to raise overall DPR as well as your crit damage ceiling, but I find it to be as eyebrow-raising as frostcheese. I realize the point is to demonstrate peak untyped damage performance, but point of this exercise becomes more meaningful without it (lack of specific item dependence on an uncommon, lack of specific theme dependency, factors that are hard to roleplay/justify).

2. Bloodiron. Effectively, its value should be applied at significant discount rate. In a nova sequence, it only becomes relevant if the nova is a failure. Let's consider the scenarios:
a) the nova sequence kills it outright, Bloodiron second crit damage instance fails to apply
b) the nova sequence is just shy of killing it, and Bloodiron will kill it next turn...maybe (we are talking about a 3-30 variable swing here). It will get a standard action before it is killed, and the rest of your party is faced with the choice to either expend a standard action to deny it an additional turn (usually a good trade given how strongly stuns are valued), or to wait it out and expect the Bloodiron damage to probably kill it and only with some meta-game knowledge. The correct decision to make is typically the former.
c) the nova sequence fails and the target has ample HP remaining for Bloodiron to be relevant. This is an unfavorable scenario which you're actively optimizing to reduce the probability of happening.

In two out of three scenarios, bloodiron's second damage instance is nonapplicable, and the latter case is one you'd wish never happen at all (not to mention probabalistically rare given the scenario numbers). Bloodiron's secondary crit damage has little to no value as far as novas are concerned here.

--- 

Additional comments:

I would highly suggest Press the Advantage as your D1. As noted, your Nova will fail to kill a standard 23% of the time. Having an extra free action rogue power attack in the combat sequence improve your overall crit rate to 80%, and even if there are no crits, five shots at 24 damage each will still shred a standard monster. You'll basically have this power on tap vs a 'must kill' target, or available for use when you've already rolled your first 3 attacks and know you haven't landed a crit yet, but bloodied the target at 72 damage and need a more surefire way to finish off the target.

If you're not using a Weretheme build, you can trade Claw Gloves for Babau Gauntlets to save melee training. Spend the feat on Improved Defenses.

A possible Brutal Scoundrel stat array I would use here is: 18 Dex, 13 Str, 13 Wis, 8 Int, 10 Else, Putting +2 bump in Dex. You put one stat bump in Wis, and the rest in Str, ending with 23 Dex/15 Str/15 Wis at level 12 and 28 Dex/20 Str/16 Wis at endgame.
I'm going to use a slightly fuzzier math on this one*. The ballpark values I'm seeing and using are:
- 24 Damage per normal hit. 
- 23 Damage on TWO MBA.
- 47 on a crit (30+16.5, not counting second instance of bloodiron for reasons that will be explained below).
- SA damage value of 13.5, 24 on a crit. 

For a practical nova, you would hold off on applying SA until you crit (or the last attack in the sequence if you fail to land a crit), which happens 73% of the time and generates another 23 damage instance. Your damage instances are thus:
24, 24, 24, 71, 23 = 166 damage. In other words, 73% of the time, your nova will do at least 166 average rolled damage, easily performing a kill vs SMHP 120 (in fact, your TWO might overflow into waste). The other 27% of the time, you'll do 96 damage, falling slightly shy.

This is a pretty reasonably built rogue with an acceptable nova sequence.



Good way of looking at it.

1. Weretheme + Claw Gloves is a pretty clever implementation to raise overall DPR as well as your crit damage ceiling, but I find it to be as eyebrow-raising as frostcheese. I realize the point is to demonstrate peak untyped damage performance, but point of this exercise becomes more meaningful without it (lack of specific item dependence on an uncommon, lack of specific theme dependency, factors that are hard to roleplay/justify).



Frost has slightly more item dependency at 12th - dragonshard+gloves of ice+frost weapon vs claw gloves+bloodiron.

It does mean giving up the theme and putting one into a specific roleplaying situation, but...in a one crit, 4 regular hits in a round situation, it represents 32 damage. That's a lot of damage to be giving up without a bump up in damage somewhere else. And I like the +2 speed and regen too - those both add a lot.

It is a ridiculous theme, but wow, is it a ridiculous theme for a skirmisher-style rogue.

2. Bloodiron. Effectively, its value should be applied at significant discount rate. In a nova sequence, it only becomes relevant if the nova is a failure. Let's consider the scenarios:
a) the nova sequence kills it outright, Bloodiron second crit damage instance fails to apply
b) the nova sequence is just shy of killing it, and Bloodiron will kill it next turn...maybe (we are talking about a 3-30 variable swing here). It will get a standard action before it is killed, and the rest of your party is faced with the choice to either expend a standard action to deny it an additional turn (usually a good trade given how strongly stuns are valued), or to wait it out and expect the Bloodiron damage to probably kill it and only with some meta-game knowledge. The correct decision to make is typically the former.
c) the nova sequence fails and the target has ample HP remaining for Bloodiron to be relevant. This is an unfavorable scenario which you're actively optimizing to reduce the probability of happening.



Don't forget, there can be the situation where the build can expect to nearly take down an Elite in one round. With 2 critical hits, it is 213 damage. Add the 2 instances of Bloodiron and it is 236. Also, once the nova is done, the build is mostly relying on Piercing Strike. At that point, Bloodiron becomes more valuable(assuming that the DM is not throwing encounters the DM knows will be wiped out in 1-2 rounds - if not true, well, what's the point?)

I would highly suggest Press the Advantage as your D1. As noted, your Nova will fail to kill a standard 23% of the time. Having an extra free action rogue power attack in the combat sequence improve your overall crit rate to 80%, and even if there are no crits, five shots at 24 damage each will still shred a standard monster. You'll basically have this power on tap vs a 'must kill' target, or available for use when you've already rolled your first 3 attacks and know you haven't landed a crit yet, but bloodied the target at 72 damage and need a more surefire way to finish off the target.



Good point - wasn't looking at no critical hits in the right way.
Fixed some math - MBA from Two Weapon Opening doesn't work with Daggermaster.
Except you can never be sure that the bloodiron will take down a monster, without substantial metagaming.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Except you can never be sure that the bloodiron will take down a monster, without substantial metagaming.



You don't actually have to be sure you're taking down a monster a significant percentage of the time. d10 makes for solid crits with no resistance issues. That there's another d10 coming down the pike is gravy. It might not be necessary, but at worst, it does nothing. At best, it contributes.

It also means you can deliberately target something that you know it will be useful on, such as an Elite or Solo. Wraithblade has the big problem that outside the nova round, it shouldn't contribute almost anything unless you get the magical roll a crit(3/20), then roll another crit(1/20). 3/400*sneak crit isn't worth losing the d10 let alone losing the extra d10.
Adding to notes - one nice thing about the build in Epic is the ability to use Divine Mastery/Martial Mastery to recharge Oath of Enmity and Tumbling Strike, Circling Predator, or other options to do a 2nd mini-nova in the 2nd round if the target dies on the first round.

i.e. Round 1:
Minor: Oath of Enmity
Move: Tumbling Strike
Standard: Circling Predator
AP: Standard: Piercing Strike(will need to build out to see if there's a better option)

Round 2:
Minor: Oath of Enmity
Move: Low Slash
Standard: Circling Predator

or

Minor: Oath of Enmity
Move: Tumbling Strike
Standard: Piercing Strike
(Round 3: Low Slash+Piercing Strike) 
Can you post a build with Frost Cheese to see how it compares?

There are a couple of posters from a previous thread who said that if you don't use Frost Cheese, you are doing it "wrong" and that the build will be "significantly less optimized."
Can you post a build with Frost Cheese to see how it compares?

There are a couple of posters from a previous thread who said that if you don't use Frost Cheese, you are doing it "wrong" and that the build will be "significantly less optimized."



I think it should compare reasonably well with most Frost Cheese builds particularly in Paragon. A Frost Rogue with Rain of Blows+Shocking Twister, i.e. Tumbling Strike+Rain of Blows+Shocking Twister+Low Slash is 8 attacks, but it only has the 10% crit chance in Epic and it doesn't have an easy Paragon way of getting an extra action point to make it happen consistently every combat.

What happens in Epic tends to be hard to predict, because that's when a lot of builds that aren't actually optimized until Epic become very viable. 
Except you can never be sure that the bloodiron will take down a monster, without substantial metagaming.



You don't actually have to be sure you're taking down a monster a significant percentage of the time. d10 makes for solid crits with no resistance issues. That there's another d10 coming down the pike is gravy. It might not be necessary, but at worst, it does nothing. At best, it contributes.

It also means you can deliberately target something that you know it will be useful on, such as an Elite or Solo. Wraithblade has the big problem that outside the nova round, it shouldn't contribute almost anything unless you get the magical roll a crit(3/20), then roll another crit(1/20). 3/400*sneak crit isn't worth losing the d10 let alone losing the extra d10.



Why would wraithblade only kick in on the second crit?

You're using a +2 weapon at 12.  Wraithblade will be 2d6+3d8+5 straight away each crit. Bloodiron is 2d10 now and then 2d10 later. The former does 25.5 straight way, the latter does 11 now and 11 later. 

I don't follow your maths. 
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Why would wraithblade only kick in on the second crit?



It is unclear whether Wraithblade's applied SA damage on a crit gets maximized (last time the Wraithblade was analyzed over a year ago, the assumption was 'no'). Were it the case that the SA damage is not maxed, you would not want to activate the SA using wraithblade, and use your actual SA instead, which does gets maximized on a crit. Thus Wraithblade is only applicable on the second crit and onward. A year ago, it was established that wraithblade was a trap option; it still is, if assumptions hold.

@MwaO 

Lot of good points to follow up on here:

1. I agree that Bloodiron is probably still your best option, considering the next alternative is Vicious, which is a mere 3 extra damage on a crit. I know there's the need to post exact nova DPR because that's how builds get compared to one another, but there's a strong need to consider how frequent outcomes diverge from theoretical output in practice. In the scenario with the elite for example, it has about 20 HP remaining with 6d10 damage en route. As another player at the table, I'd probably still put an attack into it to finish it off considering how high-priority elites are as targets and how valuable denying it a turn becomes. In fact, lacking perfect information, I'd be seeing it get bloodied after the 140 damage or, and would put in my own mini-nova just to put it down for sure. The penalties for underestimating are far more severe than underestimating, after all.

2. Nova options: Try Path of the Blade, E17, then take Tumbling Strike at E23 (blasphemy, I know...) Your power set becomes Low Slash (via ResMan)/Circling Pred/Tumbling Strike/Path of the Blade

Although what I like to do with this build in epic is actually MC Swordmage and go Sage of Ages - you have the base Int to qualify by then. Sage of Ages double-roll cranks your steady DPR, and you powerswap into Borrowed Confidence so you can open with Steel Entrapment. On that note, try a nova with Borrowed Confidence > Path of the Blade > Low Slash > Steel Entrapment for a much cooler signature rogue nova. You rearrange team monster however you like with a bunch of slides, then immobilize them wholesale.

3. On that note, I can't help but point how how different a Daggermaster's novas are compared to a ranger nova despite applying the same methods. At level 12 vs SMHP 120, if you crit at least once before your third attack (48% chance), you have damage instances of 24, 24, 71, 23, enough to bury a standard by itself and saving you the AP-Circling Predator. On the other hand, if you crit on the first or second hit of Circling Predator, one of the the attacks of Circling Predator and the TWO MBA is basically spilling into waste. The need to reduce such overflow waste is partially what drives me to look at other approaches to nova other than the ranger method.

Anything thanks for posting this build up for discussion. I haven't gotten this knee-deep in rogue mechanics for a long time now. I might also build out a non-weretheme variant later just to see how it fares.
Why would wraithblade only kick in on the second crit?



It is unclear whether Wraithblade's applied SA damage on a crit gets maximized (last time the Wraithblade was analyzed over a year ago, the assumption was 'no'). Were it the case that the SA damage is not maxed, you would not want to activate the SA using wraithblade, and use your actual SA instead, which does gets maximized on a crit. Thus Wraithblade is only applicable on the second crit and onward. A year ago, it was established that wraithblade was a trap option; it still is, if assumptions hold.



It specifically doesn't count against your usage of sneak attack. So you maximise SA with the first crit and also get SA again with the crit dice (not maxed).
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Why would wraithblade only kick in on the second crit?



It is unclear whether Wraithblade's applied SA damage on a crit gets maximized (last time the Wraithblade was analyzed over a year ago, the assumption was 'no'). Were it the case that the SA damage is not maxed, you would not want to activate the SA using wraithblade, and use your actual SA instead, which does gets maximized on a crit. Thus Wraithblade is only applicable on the second crit and onward. A year ago, it was established that wraithblade was a trap option; it still is, if assumptions hold.



It specifically doesn't count against your usage of sneak attack. So you maximise SA with the first crit and also get SA again with the crit dice (not maxed).

So you basically double dip your sneak attack dice on a crit?

Would this potentially fall under stacking bonuses from the same named game element (sneak attack)? I can't imagine this being what was originally intended for the Wraithblade, in any case.
Celerian: Yes. One is maxed, the other not.

No because it is not a bonus.

And why not, considering it is dagger equivalent of reaper's axe or harmony blade and is less powerful than either?
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Would this potentially fall under stacking bonuses from the same named game element (sneak attack)? I can't imagine this being what was originally intended for the Wraithblade, in any case.

No, Sneak Attack is not a bonus.

Bear in mind the Compendium version of Wraithblade is inaccurate. It isn't a property, but part of the Crit: line on the weapon.
Would this potentially fall under stacking bonuses from the same named game element (sneak attack)? I can't imagine this being what was originally intended for the Wraithblade, in any case.

No, Sneak Attack is not a bonus.

Bear in mind the Compendium version of Wraithblade is inaccurate. It isn't a property, but part of the Crit: line on the weapon.

That's disappointing.  Time to tweak the executioner builds I've been messing with.

The only difference that makes is that you actually have to attack with it right?
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Bear in mind the Compendium version of Wraithblade is inaccurate. It isn't a property, but part of the Crit: line on the weapon.



Ah, ok. I was wondering why no one ever read it before to max the added SA damage. Having it in the crit line makes a lot more sense since it absolutely makes it clear this instance of SA damage is not maximized.

Acknowledging that Wraithblade does stand to give you an extra instance of sneak attack, I would still point to one of the original arguments against Wraithblade:

At level 12, you're comparing choices of a +2 Wraithblade vs a +3 Vicious Dagger (I'm ignoring Bloodiron for the moment despite the greater crit damage because I don't want to retread back on my previous arguments against Bloodiron), with crit dice diffences of 2d6+3d8 (20.5) vs 3d12 (19.5). Wraithblade has a slight crit dice edge, but is at -1 hit/damage normally. It only becomes stronger if you can access the +3 version. 

Comparing +4 versions the dice differences becomes 4d6+3d8 (24) vs 4d12 (26), with Vicious being clearly superior. Wraithblade takes advantage again only in epic tier. In essence, the case against wraithblade is that there's a roughly similar performing item at cheaper price and level of availability. It's pretty difficult to justify taking it over Vicious; you could probably make a case for brutal scoundrels, but only if you can also stomach the cost.
Surprised no one has mentioned the annoying anti-nova requirement of "Minor action: Wereform"
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Surprised no one has mentioned the annoying anti-nova requirement of "Minor action: Wereform"

You can do that prior to your nova round though, can't you?

Surprised no one has mentioned the annoying anti-nova requirement of "Minor action: Wereform"

You can do that prior to your nova round though, can't you?




It's not much of a nova if it's not the first round (setup rounds are bad).
Surprised no one has mentioned the annoying anti-nova requirement of "Minor action: Wereform"

You can do that prior to your nova round though, can't you?




It's not much of a nova if it's not the first round (setup rounds are bad).

Okay then.

Since this is an artful dodger build, why not swap human for a dead tiefling to get borrowed confidence through secrets of belial?

Also, maybe you can consider squeezing in the feat unerring ambush to get double rolls in the first round without wasting a minor on oath of enmity.

Then you can use borrowed confidence on turn 2, and oath of enmity on turn 3 so that you're double rolling for pretty much the whole fight.
At level 12, you're comparing choices of a +2 Wraithblade vs a +3 Vicious Dagger (I'm ignoring Bloodiron for the moment despite the greater crit damage because I don't want to retread back on my previous arguments against Bloodiron), with crit dice diffences of 2d6+3d8 (20.5) vs 3d12 (19.5). Wraithblade has a slight crit dice edge, but is at -1 hit/damage normally. It only becomes stronger if you can access the +3 version. 

Comparing +4 versions the dice differences becomes 4d6+3d8 (24) vs 4d12 (26), with Vicious being clearly superior. Wraithblade takes advantage again only in epic tier. In essence, the case against wraithblade is that there's a roughly similar performing item at cheaper price and level of availability. It's pretty difficult to justify taking it over Vicious; you could probably make a case for brutal scoundrels, but only if you can also stomach the cost.



Except a rogue that is trying to max damage without being frost and not being a brutal scoundrel is doing it wrong. When you crit and get you strength mod again, that makes quite a difference to the maths.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein

On undead tieflings and Borrowed Confidence: You can and you absolutely should. That comes online only after level 16 though.

So here's an attempt at a non-weretheme build using brutal scoundrel:

Build

Race: Human
Rogue Tactics: Brutal Scoundrel
Weapon Talent: Rogue Weapon Talent
Multiclass: Avenger
Paragon Path: Daggermaster


Ability Scores:
L1 – Str 16, Con 10, Dex 18, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 8
L4 – Str 17, Con 10, Dex 19, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 8
L8 – Str 18, Con 10, Dex 20, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 8
L11 – Str 19, Con 10, Dex 21, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 8


Defenses: 28/25/28/23

Feats:
L1: Light Blade Expertise
L1: Backstabber
L2: Swift Footwork
L4: Discple of Divine Wrath
L6: Two-Weapon Fighting
L8: Weapon Focus
L10: Reserve Manuver
L11: Two-Weapon Opening
L12: Improved Defenses


At-Will Powers:
L1 – Clever Strike
L1 – Piercing Strike


Encounter Powers:
L1 – Dazing Strike
L3 – Low Slash
L7 – Blade Vault
L11 – Critical Opportunity/Circling Predator


Daily Powers:
L1 – Press the Advantage
L5 – Bloodbath
L9 – Knockout


Skills:
L1 – Acrobatics
L1 – Athletics
L1 – Insight
L1 – Perception
L1 – Stealth
L1 – Thievery
L4 - Religion


Items:
+3 Vicious Dagger
+1 Shielding Blade Dagger
+3 Leather Armor
+2 Symbol of Victory
+2 Magic Neck
Babau Gauntlets
Iron Armbands (Heroic)




Key Metrics as follows:


Main Hand Damage: 17.5 (1d4+15)/+22 to hit with CA - with Piercing Strike this still hits on a 2.
Main Hand Crit: 19+3d12 = 38.5
Off Hand Damage:  15.5 (1d4+13)/+20 to hit with CA
Sneak Attack Value: 3d8+4 (17.5 Avg, 28 Maxed on Crit)

Nova Sequence of Oath > Blade Vault > Low Slash > Circling Predator
Damage instances assuming one crit (73% rate): 17.5, 17.5+16 (Blade Vault bonus damage), 17.5, 66.5, 15.5 (TWO) = 150.5
Damage instances assuming no crits (27% rate): 17.5, 17.5+16(BV), 17.5, 17.5+17.5(SA without crit) = 103.5

--@MwaO: I actually realized I screwed up earlier and under-reported your non-critting scenario damage because I forgot to include SA (13.5) Actual output of that build with 4 hits, no crits is 110. Still a little shy of SMHP.


Standard DPR: +22 vs Reflex hits on a 2. 
5% Miss (0)
80% Normal: 17.5 Base damage + 17.5 SA
15% Crit: 38.5 Base + 28 Maxed SA + TWO (80%*15.5 Damage)
----------
DPR: 40 / .33 KPR

More or less what you'd expect when you take off the claw gloves. But at minimum, you're hitting your paragon striker benchmarks while mustering a nova that will kill a standard 73% of the time, with a daily resource to salvage the first occurance of the 23% divergent scenario. The takeaway message here? A stock brutal scoundrel daggermaster can reasonably meet mid/late paragon striker benchmarks fairly early on, and is able to muster an encounter-resource nova that has a tolerably high likelihood of killing a standard outright for 4/5 encounters a day. That's a pretty positive message for a rogue not absolutely needing frostcheese to be able to keep up with damage expectations.


Thank you, RenZhe. 
Notes:
I think the build is feat constrained enough that Borrowed Confidence isn't the right move as scary as that might sound. Divine Mastery = 2 uses of Oath of Enmity in Epic, which is better than Borrowed Confidence. Blade Vault + the feat has similar issues. That First Strike feat should resolve the Oath of Enmity issue - either the Rogue gets to go first, at which point he does Werewolf and no Oath or he doesn't, at which point he does Werewolf, Oath, Steel Roll, Circling Predator, then follows up with Dazing Strike+Low Slash on the next round.

While Brutal Scoundrel definitely adds to damage, I think the ability to become hidden reasonably easily, even without total concealment or cover, counts for something. That and the ability to focus on a meaningful stat(Wisdom) as opposed to a low value stat(Strength).

Wraithblade. It is a choice on every attack whether or not to apply Sneak Attack damage. The restriction on use is how many times you can do it per round(which is now turn). Just because the restriction of number of times per turn changes, doesn't mean you get to apply it twice to a single attack. And because it is part of crit dice, you don't maximize it. I also don't like Wraithblade for two simple reasons: The compendium is wrong and there will be table variation on the meaning of the extra sneak attack dice.

RenZhe, the build looks good except that humans wouldn't get that Str bonus.
Unerring Ambush is a trash feat without proper party (read: warlord) support or initiative optimization. You only double-roll vs things you beat in initiative and haven't acted. A standard dex rogue with no other investment in initiative is basically rolling on par with monster initiative, meaning this feat fails to function for you 50% of the time, or at the very least severely constrains your targetting capacity based totally on luck. We optimize to take the noise and superflous assumptions out of a system, not to generate more of it. It's also defeated when DM staggers the encounter and does not reveal his full hand on turn 1. A one-turn nova is not one turn because it is always assumed to be used on turn 1, but should be versatile enough to whip out on a prime target of opportunity a moment's notice with zero prepwork.

Rather than Divine Mastery to cycle OoE on an AP (usable 4/5 encounters a day), I'd still find it more advisable to take one use of OoE and one use of Borrow Confidence. Borrowed Confidence has a lot going for it in that it is not subject to the melee-only and no other enemies adjacent restrictions of OoE, and in general, if you're popping one of those two powers, you're in nova mode and whatever you're murdering shouldn't be expected to survive to the second round for the second turn of OoE to matter.

That human array started with 18 Dex and 16 Str. You'll note that I decided not to take a post-racial 20 in Dex, because the build is already hitting on a 2 vs reflex normally as it is, and having a decent enough str score at some point should be sufficient to justify the lack of melee training (ditch Babau Gauntlets later).

Blade Vault + Feat was an attempt to at least try out put out favorable numbers close to your weretheme example (and I learned that trick from I think BlackKnight and wanted to try it out), but I think it wasn't completely necessary. A more ideal build would have been to go undead tiefling and skip the Blade Vault support feat and take Shadow Steel Roll in lieu of Blade Vault.
With Battle Harness and Timeless Locket you will easily hit +21 initiative at level 16. If you have a Warlord, that should be +24 instead (and you drop Battle Harness). Most same-level (elite or not) brutes, soldiers, and controllers are around +7 to +10, so you should beat them most of the time.

Skirmishers and lurkers would be problematic with +15 to +17 initiative though.

I found unerring ambush to be useful when I tried out a Daggermaster for a one-shot, but YMMV.
Just an fyi: Level 16 Soldiers will be a minimum of +12 and a maximum of +17, anything outside that is a typo that never got fixed in Edit.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.