Positive Mechanics from 4E that the Devs have missed

I have seen several posts and threads talk about how the Developers don't understand what was enjoyed about 4E. I haven't been able to clearly follow them, so I'm looking for clear examples from 4E fans. I don't want things like "I want encounter powers," but I want to know WHY you liked encounter powers. Please be as specific and clear as you can.

Thank you.
Minions - not just a low level monster they are thematic and immune to residual damage as it takes a full hit to take them off the table - allows a cast of thousands in fights and are simple to run with static (not rolled) damage.

Bloodied condition: Good measure of a combatant being badly hurt.
  While not to keen on alot of 4th ed things I did actually like alot.

4th ed weapons. 3.5 wepaons did get a bit crazy in that system and the way 4th ed wepaons ineracted with powers was quite clever. I liked weapon traits such as brutality and the like.

 NADs. I did like NADs as well and I can go either way on NADs or Fort/Ref/Will saves. Glad to see the back of 3.5 touch attacks.

 Striker mechanics on some classes. INteresting take on things like favoured enemy and sneak attacks.

Powers. I am also fine with powers just no in the way 4th ed implemented them.

 Warlord. Liked the class despite a general dislike of AEDU power structure. Also liked the 4th ed warlock over the 3.5 one.

 Cleaner simpler rules overall. Readong the combat chapter in the PHB is not very nice. 4th ed had an orsum DMG and MM as well for the most part. As a forever DM I really liked that aspect of it.

 Minions/Elites/Solos. At lest the concept of them. Proberly overused used but I can see the need for them in 3.XYZ game.

 Racial powers. Did not like AEDU, did like racial powers. Planning on yoinking these in my curent game as my players liked them as well.

XP encounter design system. CR was all over the place.

 Thats a few things off the top of my head form someone who did not like alot of 4th ed but I did like large parts of it.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 Fear is the Mind Killer  

Here's some threads from EnWorld.org and RPG.net that can give you the run-down on what 4ed got right:

www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?332...


forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?633971-4th-...

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

Healing magic as a class feature.
It didn't reduce the healer as a healing bot if he just wanted to assume the minimum required. He was free to do what he wanted of his character without losing healing effectiveness or investing a standard or movement action in it.

It's the thing I will miss the most from 4th edition. There's no way I will play the old healer way in the next edition. We returned to the question  "Who wants to be the healer ?"  when creating a group. In 4th edition, it has stopped, even I was okay to play a healer, as I could be a full support character with control and buffs without taking a single healing spell and still be a good healer.

And when I see the mess about healing in the next edition, I really don't understand the step back. 

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

Here is what I like about 4E:

Monsters do not follow PC rules. This makes it easy to create forceful opponents that surprise the group. They do not know what to expect even more. Also, being able to pick role-appropriate powers and abilities and tag them onto any monster makes encouter building very easy. Especially because the math of encounter building is streamlined and opponents are identifyable as minions, standard, elites and solos from a DM's point of view.

Leader characters instead of "healers". I do not have to play a cleric to heal others, I can also play a Warlord or a bard or something else instead. Opens up a lot of choices.

Everybody contributes to the game because classes are balanced. All players have the choice to distribute abilities, skills and powers in a fashion that makes the "three pillars of roleplay" worthwhile for everybody. Also, the concept of skill challenges helps in that regard.

The power system. I really like encounter powers because they give a character something meaningful and powerful to do in any combat while offering the chance to narrate causes and effects in many different ways.

Everything is on a card. You do not have to look up stuff in long spell lists or lists of maneuvers. It is right there on you character sheet or in the monster stat block. I really hate spell lists, especially in alphabetical order. What a waste of time and printer ink! YVMV of course.

Just roll the attack, not the defense. In that way, the attacker has the control, which is good. Also prevents bad DMs from fudging a save out of arbitrariness. I like NADs for the same reason.

The tactical side of the game. The people I play with love battlemaps and interesting terrain as a break or part of the roleplaying. I also like the fact that in 4E a combat has it's own story with tension and everything. I like a longer fight with dramatic ups and downs better than the short narrative of a fight that lasts for only 5 minutes in real time. 
The bloodied mechanic - It works nicely as a way of differentiating how hurt an enemy is compared to others. It was also nice how it was incorporated into some abilities like the shifter racial powers.

Minions - Nice way of simulating lots of weak enemies.
The bloodied mechanic - It works nicely as a way of differentiating how hurt an enemy is compared to others. It was also nice how it was incorporated into some abilities like the shifter racial powers.

Minions - Nice way of simulating lots of weak enemies.



These would be my top two as well.

Even though it wasn't really a mechanic per se, more of a key word, bloodied offered a consistent way to map monster abilities and for you to let players know about where the creature's hp was without telling them the exact amount. Is he bloodied or not? It gives just enough information.

Minion I liked as well. A good amount of modern games have been falling in with the "Extras" mechanic. I first remember seeing rules for 1 hp trash mobs in Exalted 1st edition. I loved it then and I still love it now.
My two copper.
Question on minions, why can't you simply take any monster and give it 1 hit point.  Wasn't this (in general) what a minion was?  Does this need to be stat-ed out?

"The turning of the tide always begins with one soldier's decision to head back into the fray"

Healing surges seem to be top of the list. The idea that you get your HP back between fights is a good one, and the current hit dice mechanic barely covers that and does so in a clunky way because it requires a roll.

I feel like the base marking status condition isn't bad to have. Though I wouldn't want to see it as exclusively a fighter ability, it should be something any melee combatant gets where the last person to attack someone has the active mark. I feel like it reduces the focus fire potential when you add that -2 penalty and furthers the idea that combatants tend to "pair off" in a melee and fight their own opponent in front of them as opposed to just focusing down one enemy at a time. I don't want to see complex stuff like the paladin or swordmage mark, but just having the basic mark condition and allowing everyone to do it with a melee attack would be good.

I liked the idea in 4E where at some point you stopped getting new powers and just exchanged old powers for higher level ones. I feel like that's a great paradigm for the game especially at higher level since it limits complexity of higher level characters. I'd like to see that applied to feats and spells.

I'd like to see reactions and interrupts introduced as a mechanic. Right now we just have reactions, and I felt the interrupt and reaction distinction was great for determining when a given ability triggered. Currently there's a lot of abilities that I am uncertain when they're supposed to trigger. Like if Artful dodger happens before or after you know if the creature hit you.

I also like how 4E handled armor proficiencies. It was a good way of handling different armors, so you had some guys in scale, some in plate and so on, as opposed to just "wear the best light or heavy armor you can"




Good ideas so far.  Before I get into my own, I would like to point a few things out:

1) Bloodied mechanic.  This is in D&D Next, under one of the options for healing.  No reason you can't use it with any other healing options (I use the standard healing and also the bloodied condition).  Currently there aren't things that key off bloodied, but that makes sense as it is optional.

2) Minions.  This is also in D&D Next, just not exactly the same.  Many low level monsters have so few hit points that they will be killed in one hit.  Also, every monster lists average damage so you don't have to roll if you don't want.  What would be nice is for the DMG to talk about counting low level monsters as having 1 hp.  Perhaps some sort of level threshold: monsters more than 5 levels lower than the PCs count as minions and are considered to have 1 hp.
I don't care as much for the whole "No damage on a miss" aspect.  Especially when it comes to daily powers...I feel if you are bringing out a daily, the minions should go down.  Even something like Glancing Blow...the Fighter is still using his action to take out a single minion, when he could be bringing some serious pain to the big bad.  That minion did his job.

3) Striker Mechanics.  Sneak attack and Martial Damage Dice serve this role.  Next takes a step forward, in that you don't need to use either.  You can make a rogue without sneak attack, and you can make a fighter who never uses his dice for extra damage.

4) Powers.  Between spells, maneuvers, and skill tricks, it is pretty clear that powers are here to stay.

5) Cleaner, simple rules.  This is subjective I know, but I find the rules for Next very simple and streamlined.  I have been able to run every session without looking up a single rule.

6) XP Encounter design.  Next has this.  Might need some tweaking of the numbers, but it is there.

7) Healing as a class feature.  While it doesn't work in the same way, this concept is still there.  All healing spells are (cue reverb) WORDS....OF....POWER!  You can cast them and still attack or take another action (in 4E terms, a minor action).  In addition, one of the Channel Divinity powers allows you to cure your allies.  You don't get a healing mechanic 2/encounter, but I don't think that specific number is the important part.  The point is that you can heal AND do something else.

8) Monsters do not follow PC rules.  While monsters use the core mechanic of checks and saves, other aspects of their statblock doesn't conform to PC rules.  They don't get feats, and their attack bonus is higher than their stats would indicate.  However, I would like to see more done here.  Damage and AC are still following the same rules that PCs use.  This is fine, but it means we will need more complex guidelines regarding customizing and creating new monsters.  For example, how much extra XP would orcs in plate armor be?  What about kobolds with more damaging weapons?  Etc.

Streamlined rules for monster creation/customization is a big thing that I want to see as a DM.

Other things that I would like to see:

1) Warlord.  One of my favorite 4E classes, I really hope this guy makes it into Next.  Expanding from this, just the idea of other classes that can heal (even if the healing works in a different way) is a great idea.

2) Solos that are well made.  This is something 4E struggled with.  It got a lot better toward the end though.  Having just looked up some monsters (Dragons and Dracolich), I see that Next is going in this direction too.  They are immune to paralysis and sleep.  But other big monsters (such as the Pit Fiend), do not have this immunity.  Also, rather than immunity, I think it is more interesting if monsters are resistant.  For example, instead of getting paralyzed, the monster might just be slowed.  If you can hit it with another paralysis effect, it will be immobilized.  A third such effect will paralyze it.  These monsters can also make the check to end such spells in addition to taking a regular action.
Question on minions, why can't you simply take any monster and give it 1 hit point.  Wasn't this (in general) what a minion was?  Does this need to be stat-ed out?



Yes and no. Minions usually had medium defenses and static damage. It wouldn't be hard to change, but most things you would have to jiggle the numbers a bit.

In next I'm not quite so sure. Perhaps someone can try giving them average damage for their attack instead of rolling, and give them 1 HP. Then report if it works or not Chances are some numbers would probably need to be edited a little bit.
My two copper.
I liked how 4E handled Disease format with stages to worsen, stable or get better based on DC checks and hope D&D Next adop a similar format for disease and perhaps even curses or poisoning! 

Also Fantastic Terrain Powers really help make combat more dynamics.  

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter


Also Fantastic Terrain Powers really help make combat more dynamics.  


1000 x this
I liked how 4E handled Disease format with stages to worsen, stable or get better based on DC checks and hope D&D Next adop a similar format for disease and perhaps even curses or poisoning! 

Also Fantastic Terrain Powers really help make combat more dynamics.  



Fantastic terrain powers? Can you explain a little? I'm not sure what you are talking about.
My two copper.
Here's some  exemples of a Terrain Powers:


Lightning Pillar Strike
At your command, lightning lashes out from an ancient stone monolith.
Standard Action
Requirement: You must be within 5 squares of a lightning pillar.
Check: Arcana, Nature, or Religion check (hard DC) to trigger the pillar’s attack.
Success: You activate the lightning pillar.
Target: One creature you choose in a close burst 5
Attack: Level + 3 vs. Reflex
Hit: 2d6 + one-half level lightning damage.

Published in Dark Sun Creature Catalog, page(s) 135. 


Brazier
This brazier burns brightly and hot. Tipping its iron stand sends blazing coals over nearby foes.
Standard Action
Requirement: You must be adjacent to a brazier.
Check: Strength check (DC 20) to overturn the brazier.
Success: The brazier is overturned, making an attack in a close blast 3.
Target: Each creature in blast
Attack: +18 vs. Reflex
Hit: Ongoing 10 fire damage (save ends).

Published in Dungeon Magazine 177, page(s) 25.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

7) Healing as a class feature.  While it doesn't work in the same way, this concept is still there.  All healing spells are (cue reverb) WORDS....OF....POWER!  You can cast them and still attack or take another action (in 4E terms, a minor action).  In addition, one of the Channel Divinity powers allows you to cure your allies.  You don't get a healing mechanic 2/encounter, but I don't think that specific number is the important part.  The point is that you can heal AND do something else.

I do not agree, you have to reserve a part of your spellcasting to determine your level of healing. If you do not memorize helaing spells, you do not heal anything.

4th edition allowed you to be a competent healer without caring about healing in any other aspect of the character the the concerned class feature. The healing didn't have to be upgraded or handled between X spell levels and X spells number. It took one minor action per cast, and you were able to cast any spell or make any kind attack during this, not just a crappy basic attack to feel less in a healing bot round.

It totally changes the dynamic of the support classes, alterning between healing bot rounds and the interesting (IMO) rounds.
And 4th edition also allowed people who like full healing profiles to exist too.


If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

Here's some  exemples of a Terrain Power:


Lightning Pillar Strike
At your command, lightning lashes out from an ancient stone monolith.
Standard Action
Requirement: You must be within 5 squares of a lightning pillar.
Check: Arcana, Nature, or Religion check (hard DC) to trigger the pillar’s attack.
Success: You activate the lightning pillar.
Target: One creature you choose in a close burst 5
Attack: Level + 3 vs. Reflex
Hit: 2d6 + one-half level lightning damage.

Published in Dark Sun Creature Catalog, page(s) 135. 


Brazier
This brazier burns brightly and hot. Tipping its iron stand sends blazing coals over nearby foes.
Standard Action
Requirement: You must be adjacent to a brazier.
Check: Strength check (DC 20) to overturn the brazier.
Success: The brazier is overturned, making an attack in a close blast 3.
Target: Each creature in blast
Attack: +18 vs. Reflex
Hit: Ongoing 10 fire damage (save ends).


Published in Dungeon Magazine 177, page(s) 25.



So...traps? I mean, they aren't really traps, but they seem to be handled the same way But yes, I use these all the time and they help make combat ALOT more dynamic.
My two copper.
Question on minions, why can't you simply take any monster and give it 1 hit point.  Wasn't this (in general) what a minion was?  Does this need to be stat-ed out?



Yes and no. Minions usually had medium defenses and static damage. It wouldn't be hard to change, but most things you would have to jiggle the numbers a bit.

In next I'm not quite so sure. Perhaps someone can try giving them average damage for their attack instead of rolling, and give them 1 HP. Then report if it works or not Chances are some numbers would probably need to be edited a little bit.



Hum, I've been using the monsters "as is" with just 1HP and the static damge in the bestiary, and its worked so far.  I guess I never paid that much attention in 4e to notice how different they were from the actual creature.

"The turning of the tide always begins with one soldier's decision to head back into the fray"

- Clean, clear rules

- Focus on making the DM's job easier
1) Bloodied mechanic.  This is in D&D Next, under one of the options for healing.  No reason you can't use it with any other healing options (I use the standard healing and also the bloodied condition).  Currently there aren't things that key off bloodied, but that makes sense as it is optional.


I would think part of the point of liking the Bloodied mechanic was that things keyed off of it. It could mattered when something was bloodied or if you were bloodied and if it becomes only an optional rule, then very few things in the game will care about it outside of rare Dragon articles or a campaign setting that decides it is not optional.

7) Healing as a class feature.  While it doesn't work in the same way, this concept is still there.  All healing spells are (cue reverb) WORDS....OF....POWER!  You can cast them and still attack or take another action (in 4E terms, a minor action).  In addition, one of the Channel Divinity powers allows you to cure your allies.  You don't get a healing mechanic 2/encounter, but I don't think that specific number is the important part.  The point is that you can heal AND do something else.


Well, different editions will do things differently, but part of this is that the Healing was automatic and garunteed without requiring the character to dedicate any optional and limited resources to it and just by taking a Leader (presumably with powers and/or other class abilities you liked), you'd get the healing abilities for free (and it was always relevant healing at least 25% of the target's HP and it would get better as the character grew in level). By comparison, you could easily build a Cleric with no healing capabilities at all. And, by comparison, preparing a single Cure Light wounds is not going to really make a Cleric an effective Healer.
It's the thing I will miss the most from 4th edition. There's no way I will play the old healer way in the next edition. We returned to the question  "Who wants to be the healer ?"  when creating a group. In 4th edition, it has stopped, even I was okay to play a healer, as I could be a full support character with control and buffs without taking a single healing spell and still be a good healer.

The problem with 4e was that making healing easy and effective made dedicated healers way too effective. When both of the dedicated healing clerics show up for my 4e game, the party becomes borderline indestructible. If they both healing word a character they can move most characters from negative HP to full in a single round. If they break out the daily powers, the monsters have to be overwhelmingly deadly or use tactics designed to negate the healers. Even with just one, secondary encounters tend to be trivial, doing nothing but use up a few healing surges.

I think 5e goes a little too far to fix 4e's problem here, but some cutting back of healing was needed. The problem with 5e seems to be that the combination of fewer spells and higher HP makes the cleric's healing spells weak, and they tend only to get used to save characters lives. I have been pondering dividing the clerics spells into two sets, one would be power words with a good range but limited healing designed to save lives in combat, and one set would have much higher healing that used HD, took the cleric's action and had short or no range.

The problem with 5e seems to be that the combination of fewer spells and higher HP makes the cleric's healing spells weak, and they tend only to get used to save characters lives.




As it should be.
I love minions! I love everything you can do with skill challanges, it can be used for everything! I love how smooth the system is and how easy it is to run a game as a dm... I don`t like how big the character sheets are(or get) with all the powers and feats and everything you have to keep track of. The thing I really hate(the only thing) is that magic items are so common that they don`t feel rare or special anymore and that are part of leveling! I kind of dislike how the characters feel like superheroes from level 1.
The problem with 5e seems to be that the combination of fewer spells and higher HP makes the cleric's healing spells weak, and they tend only to get used to save characters lives.




As it should be.



I'm going to have to agree with Steely_Dan here. If healing spells were needed for turn to turn healing, how is that helping the boring healing problem? I'm all for more powerful healing, but healing in combat should be to save someone's life.

Besides, normal wear and tear damage is what Hit Dice are supposed to cover, isn't it?
My two copper.
Question on minions, why can't you simply take any monster and give it 1 hit point.  Wasn't this (in general) what a minion was?  Does this need to be stat-ed out?

With Attack/AC scaling the way it did in 4th, you needed special versions of each creature.  Like a solo oger to fight at level 1, an eliete oger to fight at level 6, a normal oger to fight at level 11, and a minion oger to fight at level 16.

With bounded accuracy and greater scaling damage, you don't need any of that.  Monsters will naturally go from solo to minion as you level.  That's the biggest point of the system.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Question on minions, why can't you simply take any monster and give it 1 hit point.  Wasn't this (in general) what a minion was?  Does this need to be stat-ed out?

With Attack/AC scaling the way it did in 4th, you needed special versions of each creature.  Like a solo oger to fight at level 1, an eliete oger to fight at level 6, a normal oger to fight at level 11, and a minion oger to fight at level 16.

With bounded accuracy and greater scaling damage, you don't need any of that.  Monsters will naturally go from solo to minion as you level.  That's the biggest point of the system.



Truf.
My two copper.
I liked AC, fort, ref and will defenses and saving throws being something different, that really made sense to me and my group!
With bounded accuracy and greater scaling damage, you don't need any of that.  Monsters will naturally go from solo to minion as you level.  That's the biggest point of the system.



Right, but that fails to help if you want a "solo" monster and his 4 identical minion side kicks.  I don't see a big need to have actual stat'ed minions, just drop HP to 1 and run them as is.

I often throw in a few real monsters and then a handful of minion-ized ones to make the group seem larger.  This works great for random patrols and situations where there should be guards, but you don't want to really waste a lot of time on guards.  Or, when the leader is under attack and his guards come rushing in.

"The turning of the tide always begins with one soldier's decision to head back into the fray"

I'm going to have to agree with Steely_Dan here. If healing spells were needed for turn to turn healing, how is that helping the boring healing problem? I'm all for more powerful healing, but healing in combat should be to save someone's life.

The problem with the way it is setup now is that the healing is only useful to save characters lives and that is it. They don't do enough healing to get characters back into a fight, just enough to save a character from death. So the healing cleric ends up feeling like he is doing nothing at all.

I'm not saying healing should go back to the turn by turn healing that 4e sometimes had. Multiple Stream of Lifes going at once just result in a stupid amount of healing and unkillable characters. However, when a character uses a daily healing power, it should be dramatic in some way, not "you won't bleed to death now, just hope you don't get hit again."

I agree with Jenks and Steely-Dan that turn to turn healing si boring and should stay limited.
Big daily healing effects have a perfect place out of combat, IMO. It's where I would have placed them in 4th edition.

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

I'd also like to add these game elements from 4E to the list:

No Facing/Flanking rule 

Simple Concealment rule 

Streamlined Ongoing damage mechanic

Temporary Hit Points mechanic

Action Points mechanic

Delay action

Second Wind action

Mounts, Summons and Companions rule

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I want in combat healing to be the exception, not the norm. In combat healing should be rare and costly (in terms of action economy and spell slot usage).

This will make parties who have no dedicated healer remain viable. The dedicated healer can give off a few spurts of healing for when the going gets tough, but is no longer necessary.

When 4e was published in combat healing was ok, but still a little high. The issue was that as PCs leveled and as more books were printed healers went from 2 heals per encounter to 6+ heals per encounter. This lead to the problem people had where PCs were "unkillable". Limiting in combat healing to something like 1 heal per combat for 25% of max HP would be more than enough in combat healing for me.
Limiting in combat healing to something like 1 heal per combat for 25% of max HP would be more than enough in combat healing for me.


I would also be happy with 1 heal per combat for 75% of max HP or something like that, so that in-combat healing can feel dramatic and can help correct those bad luck days where a single character gets hit by a couple of criticals in a row. It also helps parrallel the daily wizard spells that take an opponent (or several) out of a fight.
Limiting in combat healing to something like 1 heal per combat for 25% of max HP would be more than enough in combat healing for me.


I would also be happy with 1 heal per combat for 75% of max HP or something like that, so that in-combat healing can feel dramatic and can help correct those bad luck days where a single character gets hit by a couple of criticals in a row. It also helps parrallel the daily wizard spells that take an opponent (or several) out of a fight.



That rides the line of having an extra life. Having an extra life per combat risks taking a good amount of danger away. Maybe 50% (back to bloodied) would be a bit better than 75%, though YMMV.
My two copper.
That rides the line of having an extra life. Having an extra life per combat risks taking a good amount of danger away. Maybe 50% (back to bloodied) would be a bit better than 75%, though YMMV.


Seems reasonable to me if that is basically the only in-combat healing available. In a world where there is no expectation of cure light wound spells, healing potions, second winds, and similar this would be a very powerful spell, but its relatively rarity (limited in number of times per day it can be cast) allows it to be powerful.

When you think about it, Clerics get the shaft with healing when you think of how less and less useful spells like Cure Light Wounds become. A Cleric doesn't really have a lot of healing alternatives that continue to be useful as they gain levels within that same spell level. Spells that caused continusous healing could still be useful even at higher hp levels (although obviously less so), but a wizard can easily switch away from less useful damaging spells to controlling spells for his low level slots even when at high levels, but a Cleric that moves away from low level healing spells simply can heal less per day.
Hit dice recover 70-90%.

So there ya go. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The problem with the way it is setup now is that the healing is only useful to save characters lives and that is it. They don't do enough healing to get characters back into a fight, just enough to save a character from death. So the healing cleric ends up feeling like he is doing nothing at all.


That's really the way I prefer it, and I think in D&DN, it's still too easy to get characters back into the fight. You can cast cure minor wounds at will and because of the "Heal from zero" rule you always return a fallen PC to combat as much as you want with that spell. And the only way to stop it is to kill the PC, making it a giant "Coup de Grace the PCs" encourager.

Healing was one of the big problems 4E had if you ask me. It was too plentiful and too easy to execute. Hell, healing in 4E/D&DN isn't even an action anymore. It's just something you happen to do on the side while you're smashing an orc's skull. 

I personally hate how D&DN has basically adopted the 4E model for cleric healing. If there's any concept I want to see nerfed, it's the battlefield healer. All it does is prolong battles and remove the tension with "oh well, the cleric will just heal me."

People who get KOed in battle should stay down, the ability to return to combat only means they're prime targets for a Coup De Grace.
Minions - not just a low level monster they are thematic and immune to residual damage as it takes a full hit to take them off the table - allows a cast of thousands in fights and are simple to run with static (not rolled) damage.

Bloodied condition: Good measure of a combatant being badly hurt.

Isn't the bloodied condition back as an optional rule?
This thread and the recent test packet are only reinforcing the idea that I won't be moving on to D&DN unless we see some major changes in Next.  4e got a lot right.  It isn't perfect, but what it does wrong is small compared to the path Next is currently going down.

If game design is a dart board with a bullseye and 5 rings outside of it, 3.x and 4e are in the 2nd to 3rd ring areas.  Just in different spots... one to the left, and one to the right of the Bullseye.  SWSE hit in the 1st-2nd ring areas.  Just a bit below the Bullseye.  Trajectory for Next is heading toward the 4th and 5th rings (with 1st and 2nd Ed.), and the the recent playtest gives the possibility of not even hitting the board.
Stay Frosty! - Shado
I'd also like to add these game elements from 4E to the list:

No Facing/Flanking rule 

Simple Concealment rule 

Streamlined Ongoing damage mechanic

Temporary Hit Points mechanic

Action Points mechanic

Delay action

Second Wind action

Mounts, Summons and Companions rule



don't forget ready an action too...if anybody played x-com, you basically turn it into overwatch