[PlaneShaper Presents] Some Land Makers and Destroyers

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Born of Dust |
Sorcery (R)
Destroy all lands.  Until the end of the game, players may play land cards from their graveyards and from exile.
It took decades to rebuild Ictharion from the scorched earth and shattered fields of the first war.

Abusable land sweeper?  Or balanced land sweeper printable in Modern?

Terraform |
Enchantment (R)
At the beginning of each other players' upkeep step, you and that player each may search your respective libraries for a basic land card, reveal it and put it onto the battlefield.  Each player who does shuffles his or her library.
The world, made.

Purposefully stronger in multiplayer.  Thoughts on the interesting templating?

Damnable Devils | :brm:
Creature -- Devil (C)
Haste
Ravage 1 (When this creature enters the battlefield, you may sacrifice it.  If you do, destroy target land)
"Spoilers of field and flock, this was a time of the foulest monsters."
-- History of the Second War, Vol. II
3/3

Thunderfury of Kardia |
Creature -- Elemental (M)
Flying, ravage X (When this creature enters the battlefield, you may sacrifice it.  If you do, destroy up to X target lands)
Thunderfury of Kardia enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters.
The storms born of the Kardian ranges carry away stone and boulder and devastation from those cragged peaks.
3/3

Can Ravage be used this way as a meaningful choice, or is it too destructive and unfun?

Hydrology |
Instant (U)
Return a land you control to your hand.
Until end of turn, whenever you tap a land for mana, add an additional to your mana pool.
The academists of Beryllos were often employed to warm the seas to rise and seed the clouds to fall.

Is Blue able to get workable, conditional mana ramp?  Or is this too far out of pie?

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Not another "play from exile" card, please?

And, um, it's exactly as abusable as Crucible of Worlds. Meaning Azusa, Lost but Seeking and landfall abilities. Throw on Zuran Orb/Squandered Resources/you get my point.

Terraform might just a bit broken at . Especially since nobody in eternal formats uses basics.

Damnable Devils is fine, I guess. You could just say "Sacrifice ~: Destroy target land, and it would be fine." No need to keyword it, but ravage could be an ability word.

X is dangerous, and that's a 3/3 flyer for three mana in red with no downside to speak of, that can become bigger and destroy lands. (To say nothing of Doubling Season and Corpsejack Menace.)

I can mostly think of High Tide, but most blue decks are more active during opponents' turns. (Also, I don't see the "reasoning" or "words" involved.)
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Not another "play from exile" card, please?


1. I didn't realize this was a problem.  2. Can you explain in more detail?

Play from exile prevents some degeneracy between this and a particular Leyline.

And, um, it's exactly as abusable as Crucible of Worlds. Meaning Azusa, Lost but Seeking and landfall abilities.


Is it balanced enough of a land sweeper that it allows the opponent to also continue to put the destroyed lands back?

Throw on Zuran Orb/Squandered Resources/you get my point.


Those aren't in Modern.  I don't care about Legacy/Vintage with this card.  There are more broken cards out there to use with those than this.

Terraform might just a bit broken at . Especially since nobody in eternal formats uses basics.


If nobody uses basics in eternal formats, would it even be worth it in eternal formats to play this and have to replace the nonbasics you would otherwise use with basics?

Damnable Devils is fine, I guess. You could just say "Sacrifice ~: Destroy target land, and it would be fine." No need to keyword it, but ravage could be an ability word.


I don't see how I could replace my wording with yours.  It can only be sacrificed when it enters the battlefield, not whenever you want.  Ravage sets up a trigger (that does the same thing each time), that can't just be ability worded.

X is dangerous, and that's a 3/3 flyer for three mana in red with no downside to speak of, that can become bigger and destroy lands. (To say nothing of Doubling Season and Corpsejack Menace.)


But is it too dangerous?  Without having to splash into other colors, it gets outstripped quickly by bigger red flyers who enter with P/T on or near their CMC and with additional upsides.  And again, it can only destroy lands when it enters the battlefield.  It's your choice, do you want to destroy lands, or have a creature?

I can mostly think of High Tide, but most blue decks are more active during opponents' turns. (Also, I don't see the "reasoning" or "words" involved.)


High Tide is what I'm building off of here.  I really don't understand the meaning behind your last sentence, what "reasoning" or "words" are you looking for?

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Born of Dust is really cool, but I would ditch the exile part of it. Because exile is sort of, well, exile.

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Ravage is really nice.
Born of Dust is really cool, but I would ditch the exile part of it. Because exile is sort of, well, exile.


With both you and bay_falconer suggesting so, I probably shall.  But I don't want to hear complaints of one-sided degeneracy.

Ravage is really nice.


Thanks   I take it that means you would not find it unfun.

Somnia, the Evanescent Plane -- A 3-set Block
Set 1 — Somnia
Set 2 — TBD
Set 3 — TBD
Planeswalker's Guide to Somnia

Build Around This
A weekly MTG Cards and Combos forum game.
Build Around This #1 - Sage's Starfish Wish
BAT #1 was built using the Legacy format with Spiny Starfish, Sage's Knowledge, and Make a Wish. Winner: Dilleux_Lepaire with Fishy Starfishies. Runner-Up: JBTM
Not another "play from exile" card, please?


1. I didn't realize this was a problem.  2. Can you explain in more detail?

Play from exile prevents some degeneracy between this and a particular Leyline.



Exile has multiple mechanical identities. If you said "players may play lands from their graveyards, or lands they own exiled this way, as if they were from their hands", you'd be fine. (That's following the tradition of Oubliette, Necropotence, Flicker, Parallax Wave, and more recently suspend and rebound) But the way you have it, you're

The other exile identities, by the way, are imprint (where the exiled card still has an effect on the game, but doesn't usually come back) and lost forever.

The thing is, you can't just have stuff coming back from exile, or it's Graveyard 2.0. That's why only four cards in the entire game of Magic--Pull from Eternity, Riftsweeper, Runic Repetition, and Misthollow Griffin--do that.

And, um, it's exactly as abusable as Crucible of Worlds. Meaning Azusa, Lost but Seeking and landfall abilities.


Is it balanced enough of a land sweeper that it allows the opponent to also continue to put the destroyed lands back?



Funny thing about sweepers is, they're "build-around-me" cards. You wanna play Earthquake? Stack your deck with flyers, protection from red, Cho-Manno, Revolutionary, or just Vigor. You don't see Shatterstorm in many artifact-heavy decks either. Wrath of God? Meet Mishra's Workshop.

Most players wore a bunch of jewelry to Armageddon.

This, however, requires only Azusa or Oracle of Mul Daya to break.

So if you make more exemptions, you're just digging yourself deeper.

If nobody uses basics in eternal formats, would it even be worth it in eternal formats to play this and have to replace the nonbasics you would otherwise use with basics?



The same reason Phyrexian Vatmother is awesome in an infect-free meta but lousy in an infect-heavy meta. You don't have a downside if you build around it.

And while I can easily craft a Standard where basics are the norm (by simply not printing any duals other than the Core Set duals), I can't craft a Modern like that, much less a Legacy or Vintage, because...I'm inheriting Ravnica, Ninth Edition, Lorwyn, and Alara.

But is it too dangerous?  Without having to splash into other colors, it gets outstripped quickly by bigger red flyers who enter with P/T on or near their CMC and with additional upsides.  And again, it can only destroy lands when it enters the battlefield.  It's your choice, do you want to destroy lands, or have a creature?



Yeah, but you're supposed to have inferior choices in modal spells.

I can mostly think of High Tide, but most blue decks are more active during opponents' turns. (Also, I don't see the "reasoning" or "words" involved.)


High Tide is what I'm building off of here.  I really don't understand the meaning behind your last sentence, what "reasoning" or "words" are you looking for?



The name. Logos means "word" or (more figuratively) "reasoning".
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
I really never want to see a card with Ravage 2 or higher. unless it costs like 8. I do like Ravage as maybe a small thing, but I'd prefer if you just took the number off. 

also don't think of the Thunderfury as an X spell. think of it as a 3/3 flier. the cheapest one of those is Jenara, Asura of War, which is three colors. but the colors who are good at flying don't get 3/3 fliers in a single color for less than 4. and on top of that, it can grow, and flexibility is a big deal.

 

120.6. Some effects replace card draws.

 

why are you here when NGA exists and is just better

A big reason it shouldn't be keyworded. Land destruction is very narrow in design space, and it's easy to go into "bad or broken" territory.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
that's why Ravage works. it's "or", not "and". you can staple it anywhere, so it can go on a lot of things, and you can put it on things that are fine on their own that can then modulate into expensive LD if necessary. LD can't be good because the value of the effect is lower than the cost it can reasonably be printed at, which means making it modular is the perfect solution. if you have two choices, and one of them is good, you can always drag the other along no matter how much it sucks.

 

120.6. Some effects replace card draws.

 

why are you here when NGA exists and is just better

Exile has multiple mechanical identities. If you said "players may play lands from their graveyards, or lands they own exiled this way, as if they were from their hands", you'd be fine. (That's following the tradition of Oubliette, Necropotence, Flicker, Parallax Wave, and more recently suspend and rebound) But the way you have it, you're

The other exile identities, by the way, are imprint (where the exiled card still has an effect on the game, but doesn't usually come back) and lost forever.

The thing is, you can't just have stuff coming back from exile, or it's Graveyard 2.0. That's why only four cards in the entire game of Magic--Pull from Eternity, Riftsweeper, Runic Retrace, and Misthollow Griffin--do that.


Thanks, that makes a lot more sense.  Also, I see what you mean about my incorrect templating in this case.

Funny thing about sweepers is, they're "build-around-me" cards. You wanna play Earthquake? Stack your deck with flyers, protection from red, Cho-Manno, Revolutionary, or just Vigor. You don't see Shatterstorm in many artifact-heavy decks either. Wrath of God? Meet Mishra's Workshop.

Most players wore a bunch of jewelry to Armageddon.

This, however, requires only Azusa or Oracle of Mul Daya to break.


What I mean is, do those make this *too* broken for Modern.  Or is this a more acceptable land sweeper for Modern, given that your opponents can still also play land from their graveyard.  What I'm really worried about being broken with this isn't those two cards, but one-sided graveyard exile, like Bojuka Bog.

There is a land sweeper in Modern already in the form of Boom // Bust, which can be coupled with Crucible of Worlds for an effect similar to what I'm trying to prevent being too easy to accomplish with this.  But I suppose you're right that I can't cover for every exception.

So if you make more exemptions, you're just digging yourself deeper.

The same reason Phyrexian Vatmother is awesome in an infect-free meta but lousy in an infect-heavy meta. You don't have a downside if you build around it.

And while I can easily craft a Standard where basics are the norm (by simply not printing any duals other than the Core Set duals), I can't craft a Modern like that, much less a Legacy or Vintage, because...I'm inheriting Ravnica, Ninth Edition, Lorwyn, and Alara.


You're not understanding my question here.  There's a reason that no one plays basics; which is because non-basics are that much more powerful.  Can you really build a deck around Terraform with basic lands that actually overcomes the fact that you're gimping yourself by playing basics.  I don't see how Terraform would be better than just playing basics and Blood Moon in eternal formats.

Yeah, but you're supposed to have inferior choices in modal spells.


That's understandable, I could see reducing its starting P/T to 2/2.

The name. Logos means "word" or (more figuratively) "reasoning".


Yes, but the Hydrologic Cycle is the water cycle, which is what this card is flavorfully a representation of manipulating.

Thanks for all the great discussion, it's very helpful to see these other perspectives.

Somnia, the Evanescent Plane -- A 3-set Block
Set 1 — Somnia
Set 2 — TBD
Set 3 — TBD
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Build Around This
A weekly MTG Cards and Combos forum game.
Build Around This #1 - Sage's Starfish Wish
BAT #1 was built using the Legacy format with Spiny Starfish, Sage's Knowledge, and Make a Wish. Winner: Dilleux_Lepaire with Fishy Starfishies. Runner-Up: JBTM
A big reason it shouldn't be keyworded. Land destruction is very narrow in design space, and it's easy to go into "bad or broken" territory.


It really all depends on the nature of the block that it's in, there's lot's of room for land destruction in design space, mostly because they don't do anything with it these days.  Of course I'm not going to put Ravage on a land or anything like that.

And other than the Mythic with Ravage X, it would be very unlikely to show up above Ravage 2.

Somnia, the Evanescent Plane -- A 3-set Block
Set 1 — Somnia
Set 2 — TBD
Set 3 — TBD
Planeswalker's Guide to Somnia

Build Around This
A weekly MTG Cards and Combos forum game.
Build Around This #1 - Sage's Starfish Wish
BAT #1 was built using the Legacy format with Spiny Starfish, Sage's Knowledge, and Make a Wish. Winner: Dilleux_Lepaire with Fishy Starfishies. Runner-Up: JBTM
A big reason it shouldn't be keyworded. Land destruction is very narrow in design space, and it's easy to go into "bad or broken" territory.


It really all depends on the nature of the block that it's in, there's lot's of room for land destruction in design space, mostly because they don't do anything with it these days.  Of course I'm not going to put Ravage on a land or anything like that.

And other than the Mythic with Ravage X, it would be very unlikely to show up above Ravage 2.



Personally, and I love land destruction, I think it should just be:
Ravage (When this enters the battlefield, you may sacrifice it. If you do, destroy target land.)

And for some reason I like this on dragons... I think it would work best on dragons.
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