We Found a Use For Non Humans.


 Mechanically humans are very good in D&DN to the extent you are almost stupid if you play anything else. With bounded accuracy every little +1 helps and humans gain alot of +1's and with the base stats array they can 14,15, 17 as base stats beofre class bonuses are factored in. Or they can have 14, 16,16 which compares well with the demi humans 13,14,16 as base stats.

 THe Demihuman racial options are kind of weak. Weapon training doesn't mean as much when humans have higher stats, 1d8+1 and 1d10 more or less equal each other except humans have +1 to hit and higher secondary and tertiary stats. Humans make the best spellcasters 100% of the time. An Elf does make a decent skill money Rogue as they get two extra skills compared to a human however and their racial package is ok for a non spell caster.

 Anyway my planned D&DN session yesterday turned into somehitng else as with BA they could not be bothered leveling up PCs. Good things were actualy said about 2nd ed which has dead levels and 4th ed which is not our preferred option. The Rogue and the Cleric were somewhat well recieved however.

 Anyway as they sat there reading the classes they were throwing around hypthetical options. The fighter PC who likes strenght based fighters got upset when he saw rapiers dealing d8 damage as he kind of worked out his two handed sword now stinks. One of the options did stand out and the racial package was the humble........

 Mountain Dwarf.

 It has the usual Dwartf stuff but they get +1 wisdom, +1 AC and they are proficinet in light and medium armor. As written there is no way to get armor proficiency ATM in D&DN except for this Dwarf ability. Anywaythis has some interesting applications forclasses such as the Cleric and Wizard. A mountain Dwarf wizard can wear medium armor and have a 14 dex which also helps with concentration rolls. Apart from humans a Dwarf wizard may be the next best option despite lacking the Elven +1 int bonus YMMV.

 The main advantage however was for the Cleric class as the mountain Dwarf gets +1 wisdom as well. The arcanist cleric and lightbringer domains do not grant armor proficiency.  The light bringer granted power lets you fire lance of faith back at your opponent when you get hit but lacking armor being in melee may not be a great option. The Dwarf takes care of that option and with 14 dex you can use quater stafs up close if you want and at range you spam lance of faith. Base AC will be around 18 (5 armor, 2 dex, 1 Dwarf) which should make Asmodeus jealous IMHO.

 If you like arcane gish characters be a Mountain Dwarf and be the arcanist. Once again you pick up armor prof for free and you can tank around with wizard spells in your domain slots and have 3 wizard cantrips one of which is fixed as mage armor which no longe stacks with armor. Still ray of frost and shocking grasp offer you some decent offensive pells and you can wear armor.

 Long story short the Dwarf may no longer suck, or at least suck less than the other demihumans at being a cleric and it offers enough perhapps to consider one in some cleric builds. I thought it was cute anyway. A Dwarf that tanks around as Dwarves should that can fry and electrocute his opponents is kind of funny IMHO. YMMV.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

So far, to me, Humans seem fine when rolling for stats, Overpowered when using an array or pointbuy. I've had them roll every time, so I've seen a wide array of races. 

As well, those extra skills and such could mean a lot to some people.
My two copper.
If a character has 15 or better in 2 stats at level 1, they will end at level 20 w/ two stats at 20 (the current max). Humans are only overpowered at the start. Endgame they're less overtly better.
Regardless, I think humana could be afforded more interesting racial mechanics than straight stat bonuses.
And yeah... battlecaster dwarves seem legit rad.
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning." -Mike Mearls
The demimumans do catch up at level 12 but human will still have higher secondary and tertiary stats due to the initial+1 and the addtiona +1 at level 12 the Demihuman presumably spent on getting a 20.

 Demihuman has something like 20/14/13 etc. Human gets 20/16/14 which more or less negates other advantages demihumans get. +1 damage on wepaons still loses out to +1 AC, or +1 hit point a level and +1 on multiple skills and often +1 on multiple saves as well. Human high dex build using a rapier and longbow is the basic power build for martial types, human anything for spellcasters. Also Human for MAD classes like the monk and presumably multiclass characters. Human cleric can have 16 in strength and wisdom, war cleric 16 in wisdom and dex.

 The Elf Rogue and Dwarf CLeric are the only ones that really come close enough to humans in power that they do not blatantly suck as they are still good, just in different ways.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I think the reason why humans have +1 stats in everything, because they breed with almost every race in the game. The +2 bonus is what they have the most blood in. 

But that just my thought.... 
This presents an interesting connundrum.   How can one design N races to be relatively well power balanced and avoid any one being excessive compared to the others?   I can easilly see tweaks which end up with demihumans being the wins at low levels instead of humans andpeople lamenting who wants to be a human.  

Where is the underlying Race design logic desribed?
Probably some combination of 3.5 and 4th ed races, stretch BA to account for a higher power levelof races.

 Thator give demi humans a +2 bonus in there relevent stat and give humans a bonus feat or skill or whatever. THey either need to rebuild the human or inflate the power level of the demihumans and maybe tweak the human.

 Point buy human 27 points.

15
15
13
8
9
11

Gives you after class adjustments
18
16
14
12
10
9

whee fun.

 Demihuman using same stats (odds are they would use a differnet stat array)
17
15
13
11
9
8

 You suck. Human gets +1 on 5 different stats in effect. Thanks Mike!!!

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

So far, to me, Humans seem fine when rolling for stats, Overpowered when using an array or pointbuy. I've had them roll every time, so I've seen a wide array of races. 

As well, those extra skills and such could mean a lot to some people.

extra skills, cantrips and other goodies are nice. I've yet to play a human myself. I want the extra cantrip or armor and skills. I'd take a mountain dwarf wizard over a human any day of the week. A starting AC of 18 vs a few higher stats? Yes please!
how about bring back stat penalties and change humans to +1's with no +2?
 Then humans kinda of suck compared to demihumans without the +2. Stat penalties are also not popular here or at least split along edition lines.

 Generally it goes 4th ed didn't have them and everything 4th ed had is perfect/badfunlolwhut. I odn't mind them but I tend towards a more whatever type thing for racial design anyway- more star wars saga, less PF and 4th ed. Its kind of a hot top[ic I think.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

how about bring back stat penalties and change humans to +1's with no +2?

Ahhh.... no, lets not. I never want to see stat penalties ever again. Start by throwing out the bonus to every stat and we'll can talk about what to add.

Non-humans have always been put in good use as sandwiches.
Elf tastes like salad, so you have to put some dwarf or halfling with it.
Non-humans have always been put in good use as sandwiches.
Elf tastes like salad, so you have to put some dwarf or halfling with it.


I prefer using them as kindling.  Dwarven brickets last longer, Elves catch fire faster and Halflings have a homey, smokey flavour that adds a nice touch to meat roasting.
I think the reason why humans have +1 stats in everything, because they breed with almost every race in the game. The +2 bonus is what they have the most blood in. 

But that just my thought.... 


That's our humans.

Humanity.  Its ongoing mission.  To conquer brave new worlds.  To seek out new life, and mate with it.  To boldly bone what no man has boned before.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

how about bring back stat penalties and change humans to +1's with no +2?

Ahhh.... no, lets not. I never want to see stat penalties ever again. Start by throwing out the bonus to every stat and we'll can talk about what to add.



why? the point of stat bonus and penalties is to show where a race is naturally worse or better than humans. elves are generally more intelligent or more dextrous than your average human, but they are also generally weaker.

so what is wrong with stat penalties?
how about bring back stat penalties and change humans to +1's with no +2?

Ahhh.... no, lets not. I never want to see stat penalties ever again. Start by throwing out the bonus to every stat and we'll can talk about what to add.



why? the point of stat bonus and penalties is to show where a race is naturally worse or better than humans. elves are generally more intelligent or more dextrous than your average human, but they are also generally weaker.

so what is wrong with stat penalties?


For starters, they pigeonhole the races by discouraging playing against type.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

All of the races have their uses. This is a roleplaying game, there really isn't any need to min/max your character like he's in an MMO. A good DM isn't going to get his players killed (unless the players earn it by being incredibly stupid). When I'm with groups that like to min/max their characters and play with little to no backstory, I tend to make encounters harder for them and be less forgiving with the dice.
how about bring back stat penalties and change humans to +1's with no +2?

Ahhh.... no, lets not. I never want to see stat penalties ever again. Start by throwing out the bonus to every stat and we'll can talk about what to add.



why? the point of stat bonus and penalties is to show where a race is naturally worse or better than humans. elves are generally more intelligent or more dextrous than your average human, but they are also generally weaker.

so what is wrong with stat penalties?


For starters, they pigeonhole the races by discouraging playing against type.




god forbid a ROLEPLAYING game has realistic weaknesses. nothing forces you to not play a halforc wizard. it just doesnt happen often due to realism of a weakness of the race
how about bring back stat penalties and change humans to +1's with no +2?

Ahhh.... no, lets not. I never want to see stat penalties ever again. Start by throwing out the bonus to every stat and we'll can talk about what to add.



why? the point of stat bonus and penalties is to show where a race is naturally worse or better than humans. elves are generally more intelligent or more dextrous than your average human, but they are also generally weaker.

so what is wrong with stat penalties?


For starters, they pigeonhole the races by discouraging playing against type.



god forbid a ROLEPLAYING game has realistic weaknesses. nothing forces you to not play a halforc wizard. it just doesnt happen often due to realism of a weakness of the race


And there it is.  The moment someone gives a crap about being mechanically effective, someone else has to throw the word "ROLEPLAYING" out there, in caps no less, thereby insinuating that caring about mechanical effectiveness means that one isn't ROLEPLAYING.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

how about bring back stat penalties and change humans to +1's with no +2?

Ahhh.... no, lets not. I never want to see stat penalties ever again. Start by throwing out the bonus to every stat and we'll can talk about what to add.



why? the point of stat bonus and penalties is to show where a race is naturally worse or better than humans. elves are generally more intelligent or more dextrous than your average human, but they are also generally weaker.

so what is wrong with stat penalties?


For starters, they pigeonhole the races by discouraging playing against type.



god forbid a ROLEPLAYING game has realistic weaknesses. nothing forces you to not play a halforc wizard. it just doesnt happen often due to realism of a weakness of the race


And there it is.  The moment someone gives a crap about being mechanically effective, someone else has to throw the word "ROLEPLAYING" out there, in caps no less, thereby insinuating that caring about mechanical effectiveness means that one isn't ROLEPLAYING.


so why cant "mechanical effectiveness" have penalties in your options?
how about bring back stat penalties and change humans to +1's with no +2?

Ahhh.... no, lets not. I never want to see stat penalties ever again. Start by throwing out the bonus to every stat and we'll can talk about what to add.



why? the point of stat bonus and penalties is to show where a race is naturally worse or better than humans. elves are generally more intelligent or more dextrous than your average human, but they are also generally weaker.

so what is wrong with stat penalties?


For starters, they pigeonhole the races by discouraging playing against type.



 Depends on how the races relate to the classes. Elves made good fighters in 2nd ed with a hit to con, halfling made good fighters with hits str in 2nd ed and 3rd ed.

 In 4th ed they made average fihghters becasue in 4th ed not having a bonus was actually worse than having a penalty in pre 4th ed in alot of cases. The 4th ed class structure ensured nothing really sucked but fighters were heavily rewarded by being a race hat had str/dex and str/con and a racial power that didn't suck. Racial penalties would have been terrible in 4th.

 Right now humans are uber becuase other races do not get the stat buffs they do despite not having a penalties. -2 Con +2 dex would actually help an elf out, same with a -2 strength +2 dex for halflings. Right now they basically suck at everything with the exception of maybe a Elf Rogue.

 And by suck I mean outclassed in almost every way by the human.


 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

how about bring back stat penalties and change humans to +1's with no +2?

Ahhh.... no, lets not. I never want to see stat penalties ever again. Start by throwing out the bonus to every stat and we'll can talk about what to add.



why? the point of stat bonus and penalties is to show where a race is naturally worse or better than humans. elves are generally more intelligent or more dextrous than your average human, but they are also generally weaker.

so what is wrong with stat penalties?


For starters, they pigeonhole the races by discouraging playing against type.



god forbid a ROLEPLAYING game has realistic weaknesses. nothing forces you to not play a halforc wizard. it just doesnt happen often due to realism of a weakness of the race


And there it is.  The moment someone gives a crap about being mechanically effective, someone else has to throw the word "ROLEPLAYING" out there, in caps no less, thereby insinuating that caring about mechanical effectiveness means that one isn't ROLEPLAYING.


so why cant "mechanical effectiveness" have penalties in your options?


Penalties are a poor way to illustrate quality.  Your very example of elves being more intelligent than humans is a perfect example.  Elves get a bonus to Int for being smarter, instead of humans getting a penalty for being dumber.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

how about bring back stat penalties and change humans to +1's with no +2?

Ahhh.... no, lets not. I never want to see stat penalties ever again. Start by throwing out the bonus to every stat and we'll can talk about what to add.



why? the point of stat bonus and penalties is to show where a race is naturally worse or better than humans. elves are generally more intelligent or more dextrous than your average human, but they are also generally weaker.

so what is wrong with stat penalties?


For starters, they pigeonhole the races by discouraging playing against type.



god forbid a ROLEPLAYING game has realistic weaknesses. nothing forces you to not play a halforc wizard. it just doesnt happen often due to realism of a weakness of the race


And there it is.  The moment someone gives a crap about being mechanically effective, someone else has to throw the word "ROLEPLAYING" out there, in caps no less, thereby insinuating that caring about mechanical effectiveness means that one isn't ROLEPLAYING.


so why cant "mechanical effectiveness" have penalties in your options?


Penalties are a poor way to illustrate quality.  Your very example of elves being more intelligent than humans is a perfect example.  Elves get a bonus to Int for being smarter, instead of humans getting a penalty for being dumber.


yes, because penalties and bonuses are used to show how they differentiate from humans. humans are the base line. what an elves +2 int would mean is, compared to a human, an elf is naturally this much higher in intelligence. there is no point giving numbers to humans when the numbers are the comparison to humans
 Humans are just as smart as elves, a smart human is still smarter than a smart elf (+2 vs 1).

 Right now ever race in effect gets a -1 penalty for their racial traits its just disguised better. I would rather suck up a isingle -1 myself than a lack of a +1 on everything.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

yes, because penalties and bonuses are used to show how they differentiate from humans. humans are the base line. what an elves +2 int would mean is, compared to a human, an elf is naturally this much higher in intelligence. there is no point giving numbers to humans when the numbers are the comparison to humans


If all they do is illustrate the differences, why bother with penalties?  You achieve the same mechanical differentiation with bonuses.  That people are so hooked on the genetic inferiority of others is rather unsavory.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

yes, because penalties and bonuses are used to show how they differentiate from humans. humans are the base line. what an elves +2 int would mean is, compared to a human, an elf is naturally this much higher in intelligence. there is no point giving numbers to humans when the numbers are the comparison to humans


If all they do is illustrate the differences, why bother with penalties?  You achieve the same mechanical differentiation with bonuses.  That people are so hooked on the genetic inferiority of others is rather unsavory.


because a difference can be being worse than the human baseline
yes, because penalties and bonuses are used to show how they differentiate from humans. humans are the base line. what an elves +2 int would mean is, compared to a human, an elf is naturally this much higher in intelligence. there is no point giving numbers to humans when the numbers are the comparison to humans


If all they do is illustrate the differences, why bother with penalties?  You achieve the same mechanical differentiation with bonuses.  That people are so hooked on the genetic inferiority of others is rather unsavory.


because a difference can be being worse than the human baseline


You can still achieve that with bonuses only.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

yes, because penalties and bonuses are used to show how they differentiate from humans. humans are the base line. what an elves +2 int would mean is, compared to a human, an elf is naturally this much higher in intelligence. there is no point giving numbers to humans when the numbers are the comparison to humans


If all they do is illustrate the differences, why bother with penalties?  You achieve the same mechanical differentiation with bonuses.  That people are so hooked on the genetic inferiority of others is rather unsavory.


because a difference can be being worse than the human baseline


You can still achieve that with bonuses only.


its more conveniently shown with penalties and it makes race balancing easier. why are you so adamant about not having  penalties?
yes, because penalties and bonuses are used to show how they differentiate from humans. humans are the base line. what an elves +2 int would mean is, compared to a human, an elf is naturally this much higher in intelligence. there is no point giving numbers to humans when the numbers are the comparison to humans


If all they do is illustrate the differences, why bother with penalties?  You achieve the same mechanical differentiation with bonuses.  That people are so hooked on the genetic inferiority of others is rather unsavory.


because a difference can be being worse than the human baseline


You can still achieve that with bonuses only.


its more conveniently shown with penalties and it makes race balancing easier. why are you so adamant about not having  penalties?


Lol.  It in no way makes balancing easier.  In the vast majority of cases, the bonuses and penalties for a given race do not balance out.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

yes, because penalties and bonuses are used to show how they differentiate from humans. humans are the base line. what an elves +2 int would mean is, compared to a human, an elf is naturally this much higher in intelligence. there is no point giving numbers to humans when the numbers are the comparison to humans


If all they do is illustrate the differences, why bother with penalties?  You achieve the same mechanical differentiation with bonuses.  That people are so hooked on the genetic inferiority of others is rather unsavory.


because a difference can be being worse than the human baseline


You can still achieve that with bonuses only.


its more conveniently shown with penalties and it makes race balancing easier. why are you so adamant about not having  penalties?


Lol.  It in no way makes balancing easier.  In the vast majority of cases, the bonuses and penalties for a given race do not balance out.


For example, if you make Goliaths a +2 STR -2 Int class, they'll just play a Fighter, who loves Str, but doesn't give a crap about his Int score. He gets the bonus and completely avoids having to deal with the penalty.
Penalties psychologically discourage players from fulfilling certain roles. A majority of people are FAR less likely to play as an Elf Fighter that uses sword and shield if they see that they get a penalty to Constitution.

I for one would be a little disappointed if they decide to bring back stat penalties for demihuman races. From a design and a mechanics perspective, it's the "easy way out" option and there are much more elegant solutions.

However - they need to provide bonuses to more than just one stat for Demihumans. I understand that Demihumans have other bonuses as well, but on paper it looks like a lot better of an idea to play a Human if you are looking to min-max your character.
Probably some combination of 3.5 and 4th ed races, stretch BA to account for a higher power levelof races.

 Thator give demi humans a +2 bonus in there relevent stat and give humans a bonus feat or skill or whatever. THey either need to rebuild the human or inflate the power level of the demihumans and maybe tweak the human.

 Point buy human 27 points.

15
15
13
8
9
11

Gives you after class adjustments
18
16
14
12
10
9

whee fun.

 Demihuman using same stats (odds are they would use a differnet stat array)
17
15
13
11
9
8

 You suck. Human gets +1 on 5 different stats in effect. Thanks Mike!!!



If you want to save point in point buy...

13
13
13
13
12
11

after class/race adj...

16
14
14
14
13
12

+3 is still a very good mod for lvl 1, and you got bonuses in every category Cool

So far, to me, Humans seem fine when rolling for stats, Overpowered when using an array or pointbuy. I've had them roll every time, so I've seen a wide array of races. 

As well, those extra skills and such could mean a lot to some people.

extra skills, cantrips and other goodies are nice. I've yet to play a human myself. I want the extra cantrip or armor and skills. I'd take a mountain dwarf wizard over a human any day of the week. A starting AC of 18 vs a few higher stats? Yes please!



In a game where virtually every single roll, be it attack, saving throw, skill check, etc,  is essentially an attribute check, the human's added boost to attributes far outshines an extra skill, spell, or ability.  At least, from an optimization standpoint.

Is there storyline appeal to being something other an human?  Of course.  But there is storyline appeal to being a human too.  So that's a wash.  Non-humans have compelling stories and mild, narrow benefits.  Humans have compelling stories and broadly ranging, highly applicable benefits.  From a power perspective, the choice is clear.
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.
 Foxface more or less the same opinon but what do you think of Elf skill monkey Rogue and Dwarf wizard/cleric? I still think they are worse than humansbut the gap is alot closer than the other builds we have come up with. Extra damage on wepaons (+1 avg) mean jack with martial damage dice and the human +2 bonus floating around.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Probably some combination of 3.5 and 4th ed races, stretch BA to account for a higher power levelof races.

 Thator give demi humans a +2 bonus in there relevent stat and give humans a bonus feat or skill or whatever. THey either need to rebuild the human or inflate the power level of the demihumans and maybe tweak the human.

 Point buy human 27 points.

15
15
13
8
9
11

Gives you after class adjustments
18
16
14
12
10
9

whee fun.

 Demihuman using same stats (odds are they would use a differnet stat array)
17
15
13
11
9
8

 You suck. Human gets +1 on 5 different stats in effect. Thanks Mike!!!



If you want to save point in point buy...

13
13
13
13
12
11

after class/race adj...

16
14
14
14
13
12

+3 is still a very good mod for lvl 1, and you got bonuses in every category




 You are a bad bad man.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Humanity appeared recently, and is totally natural, without pieces of gods or magic in it.

We have to see them as the Nature answer to the gods and magic abuse in the natural order. Natural humans are here to destroy non-humans, elves first.
Halflings are okay, they have the perfect size to make good snacks for cats and dogs depending on the age. They are so small and light that they should only be able to swim safely on calm lakes, but it seems to not be the case, so they are magical, so mother Nature absolutly hates them.

Non-humans player stricken by fear of human is perfect to reflect the terror non-human should feel in front of humans.
Elves and dwarves are old and obsolete models. And if they don't disapear soon from D&D, the next edition will feature half-rabbits and half-cockroaches as a reaction of Nature against them.

Nature loves humans, and will allow them to make all the half-humans possible to destroy the gods and magical offsprings.

And there it is.  The moment someone gives a crap about being mechanically effective, someone else has to throw the word "ROLEPLAYING" out there, in caps no less, thereby insinuating that caring about mechanical effectiveness means that one isn't ROLEPLAYING.



And on the mechanical end of the spectrum, we have this entire thread starting out by saying that people are basically stupid if they choose to play something other than human, based on the mechanical criteria of the stat bonuses. Yet I've not seen anyone complain about that, so does that mean it's okay? Because I sure as hell don't think so.

(To be clear, I don't think *either* stance is okay, so don't think I'm necessarily defending the roleplaying end. While I certainly prefer roleplaying, and I will pick a mechanically "inferior" option if it fits my concept, that doesn't mean I'm going to bitch about people not doing that.)

For those confused on how DDN's modular rules might work, this may provide some insight: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/11/the-world-of-darkness-shines-when-it-abandons-canon

@mikemearls: Uhhh... do you really not see all the 3e/4e that's basically the entire core system?

 

It is entirely unnecessary to denigrate someone else's approach to gaming in order to validate your own.


And there it is.  The moment someone gives a crap about being mechanically effective, someone else has to throw the word "ROLEPLAYING" out there, in caps no less, thereby insinuating that caring about mechanical effectiveness means that one isn't ROLEPLAYING.



And on the mechanical end of the spectrum, we have this entire thread starting out by saying that people are basically stupid if they choose to play something other than human, based on the mechanical criteria of the stat bonuses. Yet I've not seen anyone complain about that, so does that mean it's okay? Because I sure as hell don't think so.

(To be clear, I don't think *either* stance is okay, so don't think I'm necessarily defending the roleplaying end. While I certainly prefer roleplaying, and I will pick a mechanically "inferior" option if it fits my concept, that doesn't mean I'm going to bitch about people not doing that.)


The MMO min/max has already been thrown, even if the recent ones tend to neuter the racial choice, lol.

Everybody should choose their races based on ROLEPLAY choice, as well as they should ROLEPLAY the generation of their ability scores ! It's a ROLEPLAYING GAME, not a ROLL-PLAYING GAME.
MUNCHKINS, POWERGAMERS and MATHEMATICIANS (I'm sure I have forgoten some of these evil ******* ) have taken over D&D, bouh !

I don't understand why PEOPLE* are [doing things that are not to my taste ] !

* yes, being a "people" is not a good thing these day on these forums, lol.

Ah, I think that we covered a lot of the current ways to make war to divergent opinions.
Another way is to multiply threads with similar names tasting like baiting, but not too much, about different hot subjects, in the form of innocent questions, lol
 Foxface more or less the same opinon but what do you think of Elf skill monkey Rogue and Dwarf wizard/cleric? I still think they are worse than humansbut the gap is alot closer than the other builds we have come up with. Extra damage on wepaons (+1 avg) mean jack with martial damage dice and the human +2 bonus floating around.



I think the Elf Skill Monkey and the Dwarf Caster are still woefully behind the human version of whatever.  Attribute bonuses in a game built around attribute checks is damn good.

Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.
More or less the same opinion.  Human has always been a problem in RPGs not just D&D. We don't really do anyhting special and in a game with other races that have opposable thumbs and human level intelligence (or better) we don't really have alot going for us.

 I think d20 more or less got humans right but they were a bit to good in 3rd ed, in 4th ed they were bad at 1st and got better and were good at everything but 2nd best at everything as well. Pathfinder has probably made them even more overpowered than 3.5 but they did buff the other races so its not to bad and Saga probably got them about right even though it was identical to the 3.5 human (other races were better in differnt ways).

 It is hard to represent human versatility mechanically IMHO assuming we are actually that versatile. On earth we have a monopoly on advanced brain and opposable thumbs.

 Fear is the Mind Killer