Demonlord of Ashmouth and Altar's Reap

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Hi,

I have a couple of question about Demonlord of Ashmouth and Altar's Reap.

Does an exile card will go onto stack?

Here's the situation. I don't have any creatures on the battlefield and I cast Demonlord of Ashmouth. Demonlord will be exiled because I don't have any creatures to sacrifice right? Now if Demonlord goes onto stack and I cast Altar's Reap and targeted Demonlord as an additional cost to draw two cards. Did I have a legal target?

Thanks for helping me!

Smile Smile Smile
Hi,

I have a couple of question about Demonlord of Ashmouth and Altar's Reap.

Does an exile card will go onto stack?

Here's the situation. I don't have any creatures on the battlefield and I cast Demonlord of Ashmouth. Demonlord will be exiled because I don't have any creatures to sacrifice right? Now if Demonlord goes onto stack and I cast Altar's Reap and targeted Demonlord as an additional cost to draw two cards. Did I have a legal target?

Thanks for helping me!

  



Are you asking if the ETB trigger from the Demonlord goes on the stack?  If so, then yes. When Demonlord enters the battlefield, a trigger is put on the stack that says you must sac another creature or exile him.  You may then cast Altar's reap and choose  to sac the Demonlord to it.  You demonlord will go the GY and won't be exiled. 

On edit: The undying would also trigger and cause the demonlord of ashmouth to return.  That will trigger the ETB effect again.  Presumably, he would be exiled bythis trigger.  If you stifled that or avoided it someother way, the original trigger to exile him would not work because he is a new object.

Wouldn't his undying activate and then you would need to sac something anyway, thus exiling him in this situation?

EDIT: Freakin' Ninjas

IMAGE(http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/1869/hinatasig.jpg)

Hi,

I have a couple of question about Demonlord of Ashmouth and Altar's Reap.

Does an exile card will go onto stack?

Here's the situation. I don't have any creatures on the battlefield and I cast Demonlord of Ashmouth. Demonlord will be exiled because I don't have any creatures to sacrifice right? Now if Demonlord goes onto stack and I cast Altar's Reap and targeted Demonlord as an additional cost to draw two cards. Did I have a legal target?

Thanks for helping me!

Smile Smile Smile

Yes, that works. You can exile sacrifice the Demon in response to its ETB triggered ability.
The words you used are not quite on the bull's eye, but the process is OK.

It's not Logic, it's Magic!

Wouldn't his undying activate and then you would need to sac something anyway, thus exiling him in this situation?



Yes, I put that in the edit.  Missed undying at first.  
Undying will not trigger: the Demon did not die.
Yes, Undying triggers.
The Demon will come back and ask again for a sacrifice. 

It's not Logic, it's Magic!

That's a nice combo. I can draw two cards using Altar's Reap and then return Demonlord of Ashmouth on the battlefield using Unburial Rites on my next turn.


Thanks for your quick reply beyurslf.
That's a nice combo. I can draw two cards using Altar's Reap and then return Demonlord of Ashmouth on the battlefield using Unburial Rites on my next turn.


Thanks for your quick reply beyurslf.


...and still be required to sac something.

It's not Logic, it's Magic!

Undying will not trigger: the Demon did not die.
Yes, Undying triggers.
The Demon will come back and ask again for a sacrifice. 



So it means I can save my Demonlord of Ashmouth by Altar's Reap and there's no need to use my Unburial Rites?
That's a nice combo. I can draw two cards using Altar's Reap and then return Demonlord of Ashmouth on the battlefield using Unburial Rites on my next turn.


Thanks for your quick reply beyurslf.




No problem!  

Unburial rites won't work if you did not find a way to get the demonlord into the GY.  Under the scenario you explained, he would end up exiled because of undying.  If you did get him into the GY somehow and used unburial rites, his etb would trigger again, setting up the same situation of saccing another creature or exiling your demonlord.
That's a nice combo. I can draw two cards using Altar's Reap and then return Demonlord of Ashmouth on the battlefield using Unburial Rites on my next turn.


Thanks for your quick reply beyurslf.




No problem!  

Unburial rites won't work if you did not find a way to get the demonlord into the GY.  Under the scenario you explained, he would end up exiled because of undying.  If you did get him into the GY somehow and used unburial rites, his etb would trigger again, setting up the same situation of saccing another creature or exiling your demonlord.

On the turn you first cast demonlord of ashmouth, the stack will go like this:

Demonlord is cast and goes on the stack. He resolves and comes into play. 
The ETB trigger goes on the stack.
In response, you cast Altar's reap and choose to sac the demonlord. 
Demonlord goes to the GY and his undying ability triggers. 

the stack looks like this
1. Demonlord's undying ability
2. Altar's reap spell
3. demonlord's ETB trigger

When #1 resolves, the Demonlord of ashmouth will come into play andhis ETB will trigger.  altar's reap is still #2.  The new demonlord's ETB trigger will resolve,and you will have to exile him because you have no other creatures.  Then, you will draw two cards.  Then, the #3 trigger will try to resolve and fail.

In the end, you will have drawn 2 cards and the demonlord of ashmouth is in exile. 

the stack looks like this
1. Demonlord's undying ability
2. Altar's reap spell
3. demonlord's ETB trigger

When #1 resolves, the Demonlord of ashmouth will come into play andhis ETB will trigger.  altar's reap is still #2.  The new demonlord's ETB trigger will resolve,and you will have to exile him because you have no other creatures.  Then, you will draw two cards.  Then, the #3 trigger will try to resolve and fail.

Trigger #3 will not FAIL; it will resolve normally. You could still choose & sacrifice a creature (if you had one), for strategic reasons.

It's not Logic, it's Magic!

Sorry beyurslf. You missed my other point about Altar's Reap.

Before Demonlord goes into exile. I quickly cast my Altar's Reap and because this is an instant card I saved Demonlord from being exiled because the sac will resolved first.

And because he didn't exiled the Demonlord goes into GY. Now that he goes into GY the undying ability triggers and he will now go back onto the battlefield having a +1/+1.

Did I get it right?

Sorry if this is not yet clear to me.
the stack looks like this
1. Demonlord's undying ability
2. Altar's reap spell
3. demonlord's ETB trigger

When #1 resolves, the Demonlord of ashmouth will come into play andhis ETB will trigger.  altar's reap is still #2.  The new demonlord's ETB trigger will resolve,and you will have to exile him because you have no other creatures.  Then, you will draw two cards.  Then, the #3 trigger will try to resolve and fail.

Trigger #3 will not FAIL; it will resolve normally. You could still choose & sacrifice a creature (if you had one), for strategic reasons.



Very true.  I should have specified in this scenario, nothing happens because the original demonlord is gone and he has no other creatures.


...

the stack looks like this
1. Demonlord's undying ability
2. Altar's reap spell
3. demonlord's ETB trigger

...





Err... It would look like this:

1. demonlords ETB
2. Altars reap (COST says to sacrifice. Costs are paid first)
3. Undying
4. ETB

The reason it doesn't work the first time is simply because the original target is no longer on the field.  Sure the original card is, but once it left the battlefield, even if that same card comes back it is NOT the same target.  But he would still be exiled in this situation.

This chain resolves backwards, as normal.

IMAGE(http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/1869/hinatasig.jpg)

Sorry beyurslf. You missed my other point about Altar's Reap.

Before Demonlord goes into exile. I quickly cast my Altar's Reap and because this is an instant card I saved Demonlord from being exiled because the sac will resolved first.

And because he didn't exiled the Demonlord goes into GY. Now that he goes into GY the undying ability triggers and he will now go back onto the battlefield having a +1/+1.

Did I get it right?

Sorry if this is not yet clear to me.

Correct.

But then Demon still asks for a sacrifice... 

Do take note that quickly casting is a wrong way of playing Magic. 

It's not Logic, it's Magic!

Sorry beyurslf. You missed my other point about Altar's Reap.

Before Demonlord goes into exile. I quickly cast my Altar's Reap and because this is an instant card I saved Demonlord from being exiled because the sac will resolved first.

And because he didn't exiled the Demonlord goes into GY. Now that he goes into GY the undying ability triggers and he will now go back onto the battlefield having a +1/+1.

Did I get it right?

Sorry if this is not yet clear to me.



Yes, you have that right, but when he comes back into play with the +1/+1 counters from undying, this ETB triggers again.  You will then either have to sac another creature or exile him.  You don't have any other creatures, so he willbe exiled unless you stifle the ability or something else to save him.  Every time demonlord enters the battlefield, his ability will trigger.  

And just to clarify, the undying ability, the demonlord coming back into play, and his etb ability to sac another creature or exile him will ALL occur BEFORE you can draw the cards from altar's reap 
Sorry beyurslf. You missed my other point about Altar's Reap.

Before Demonlord goes into exile. I quickly cast my Altar's Reap and because this is an instant card I saved Demonlord from being exiled because the sac will resolved first.

And because he didn't exiled the Demonlord goes into GY. Now that he goes into GY the undying ability triggers and he will now go back onto the battlefield having a +1/+1.

Did I get it right?

Sorry if this is not yet clear to me.

Correct.

But then Demon still asks for a sacrifice... 

Do take note that quickly casting is a wrong way of playing Magic. 



It will still ask to exile him everytime it ETB unless if I had another creature casted on the same turn.

Thanks Chaikov. 


...

the stack looks like this
1. Demonlord's undying ability
2. Altar's reap spell
3. demonlord's ETB trigger

...





Err... It would look like this:

1. demonlords ETB
2. Altars reap (COST says to sacrifice. Costs are paid first)
3. Undying
4. ETB

The reason it doesn't work the first time is simply because the original target is no longer on the field.  Sure the original card is, but once it left the battlefield, even if that same card comes back it is NOT the same target.  But he would still be exiled in this situation.

This chain resolves backwards, as normal.



How is the undying trigger under Altar's reap on the stack? when you announce you are playing Altar's Reap, you pay its costs, which includes saccing the Demonlord. You put the demonlord into the GY and the undying triggers. But, no one would receive priority yet so the trigger won't go on the stack until you place Altar's reap on the stack.  Then a playwer would get priority so triggers can be placed on the stack. 


...

the stack looks like this
1. Demonlord's undying ability
2. Altar's reap spell
3. demonlord's ETB trigger

...





Err... It would look like this:

1. demonlords ETB
2. Altars reap (COST says to sacrifice. Costs are paid first)
3. Undying
4. ETB

The reason it doesn't work the first time is simply because the original target is no longer on the field.  Sure the original card is, but once it left the battlefield, even if that same card comes back it is NOT the same target.  But he would still be exiled in this situation.

This chain resolves backwards, as normal.



How is the undying trigger under Altar's reap on the stack? when you announce you are playing Altar's Reap, you pay its costs, which includes saccing the Demonlord. You put the demonlord into the GY and the undying triggers. But, no one would receive priority yet so the trigger won't go on the stack until you place Altar's reap on the stack.  Then a playwer would get priority so triggers can be placed on the stack. 


So the undying is placed before Altars reap?  That much I'm having difficulties following.

IMAGE(http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/1869/hinatasig.jpg)

The Undying ability is placed on top of the Stack, over Altar's Reap.

When playing a spell, the very first thing you do is place the card on the Stack. Whatever happens afterward will be placed on top of it.


*actually, the very very first thing is to announce the spell, and then place it on the Stack.

It's not Logic, it's Magic!



...

the stack looks like this
1. Demonlord's undying ability
2. Altar's reap spell
3. demonlord's ETB trigger

...





Err... It would look like this:

1. demonlords ETB
2. Altars reap (COST says to sacrifice. Costs are paid first)
3. Undying
4. ETB

The reason it doesn't work the first time is simply because the original target is no longer on the field.  Sure the original card is, but once it left the battlefield, even if that same card comes back it is NOT the same target.  But he would still be exiled in this situation.

This chain resolves backwards, as normal.



How is the undying trigger under Altar's reap on the stack? when you announce you are playing Altar's Reap, you pay its costs, which includes saccing the Demonlord. You put the demonlord into the GY and the undying triggers. But, no one would receive priority yet so the trigger won't go on the stack until you place Altar's reap on the stack.  Then a playwer would get priority so triggers can be placed on the stack. 


So the undying is placed before Altars reap?  That much I'm having difficulties following.

The undying trigger is placed on the stack after altar's reap goes on the stack. It will be on top and will resolve BEFORE altar's reap resolves.  Once the undying trigger resolves, the Demonlord will come into play and the ETB will trigger. Again, this will be on the stack on top of the altar's reap spell. It will resolve BEFORE he can draw the cards. 

it is because the sacrifice for altar's reap is a part of its cost, not a  part of its effect.  It happens before the spell resolves.  It happens even if altar's reap is counterspelled.