[FR2] Discard in Standard

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With Aggro and Tempo seemingly taking a backseat to Midrange and combo-esque decks that attempt to go over the top, is the value of discard rising in the format? I know that the quality of discard is fairly low, resting on the likes of Duress, Appetite, Lil Liliana, Mind Rot, and Ravenous Rats. But with the surge of Cavern in the format, Appetite seems like the only way to go 1-for-1 with a Thargtusk, while still being competitive with the Unburial Rites decks (via the exile clause). Or does Revelation completely blow this concept out of the water by providing a one-card answer to the entire strategy?

Also, does a deck like this have any outs against Aggro? Are Nighthawk and Augur enough to clog up the ground game? Fettergeist may also be another option. Basically, I'm asking, "Does discard have any viability in the current Standard?"

Please feel free to express your thoughts and opinions.

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with the new extort keyword revealed for B/W i could see a discard control deck based around killing your enemies creatures with kills spell and killing their hands while extorting them pops up, although i doubt it would be B/W alone it would probably be esper so they can use the dimir keyword as well.
Honestly, people are dropping their Underworld Connections too quickly in favor of wrath or draw hate when the best way to play against Revelation is to keep getting extra card draw to keep up. That said, Night Terrors and Appetite For Brains are worth considering for their exiling clause and Duress eats up Revelations before they are castable which delays the explosion of draw after draw- netting more time to get your own CA advantage online or put the pain on.
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I'm going to post a list a little later that I think might have some merit. Obviously it needs work (mainly on card choices), but it has a Grixis base and takes advantage of the cheap discard in the format. It's not in the deck, but Rakdos's Return is another card that should probably be considered. I'm just not sure if the options are there to capitalize on the tempo advantage. I've been looking at Aristocrat and Hellkite to end the game. A Pike'd Nighthawk also has the ability to close it.

I've also had thoughts on a build similar to Conley's old list that took advantage of Chandra. Only it would be Jund instead of B/R. A doubled Return for 3 is basically game over.

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Disclaimer: This member may or may not be associated with Team GFG in any other regard besides his admiration of its members.

Use faith in the absence of science, not in its stead.

Honestly, people are dropping their Underworld Connections too quickly in favor of wrath or draw hate when the best way to play against Revelation is to keep getting extra card draw to keep up. That said, Night Terrors and Appetite For Brains are worth considering for their exiling clause and Duress eats up Revelations before they are castable which delays the explosion of draw after draw- netting more time to get your own CA advantage online or put the pain on.



I mentioned Night Terrors in that :B::R: thread Niche made awhile ago. Never got around to testing with it any. It has TONS of potential, but costing 3 makes it seem really iffy. Niche seemed to think it wasn't worth it, and I tend to agree, but you never know, given the right circumstances.

*shrug*


"I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am a God."
Appetite isn't the only card that trades 1 for 1 with thragtusk.  There's also thragtusk. 

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

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139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
Honestly, people are dropping their Underworld Connections too quickly in favor of wrath or draw hate when the best way to play against Revelation is to keep getting extra card draw to keep up. That said, Night Terrors and Appetite For Brains are worth considering for their exiling clause and Duress eats up Revelations before they are castable which delays the explosion of draw after draw- netting more time to get your own CA advantage online or put the pain on.



I mentioned Night Terrors in that :B::R: thread Niche made awhile ago. Never got around to testing with it any. It has TONS of potential, but costing 3 makes it seem really iffy. Niche seemed to think it wasn't worth it, and I tend to agree, but you never know, given the right circumstances.

*shrug*




It's actually kind of depressing that we've gotten to the point where anything not a creature is so relatively weak that half of a harder to cast Stroke of Genius that compensates by giving life is responsible for "running standard."

In my experience, NT is worth playing just because the format is so stupidly slow that most people playing anything on turn 3 are at a disadvantage already because they aren't preparing for t4 Tusk.
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Crazy idea... wish someone had thought of this already. =p

Also, Nevermore's stock should be on the rise. 

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Grixis enables Goblin Electromancer to tone down the CMC of Night Terrors, Mind Rot, Rakdos's Return, etc to more savory levels--to cram more discard into turns 3-5, when it hurts the most. However the awkward interactions with Mutilate, Barter in Blood, Duress, Appetite for Brains may make the gobbo not worth the mana/card commitment.
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They just need to reprint Mind Twist and be done with it.

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"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter 
"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Identity Crisis in Gatecrash, o plz.


I thought you'd be praying for mind sludge...

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

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139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
I think we'd all prefer the exile clause.

That said I wouldn't turn my nose up at mind sludge right now. What a savage beating that is. 

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"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

I liked the Smallpox discard deck that was out before 2013 rotation. Liliana, Lingering Souls, Rats, and Smallpox. Seems good, but it is amazing how much Smallpox meant to that build. I can't see it doing well without it.

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Maybe Orzhov charm will have a Castigate ability?
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Maybe Orzhov charm will have a Castigate ability?


Too wordy/good for a charm, IMO. Don't charms usually have 1CMC effects anyways? If anything it would be Duress, though that is still pretty wordy for a card with 3 modes.

EDIT: And since charms are all instants this effect would be incredibly strong and unlikely to appear. 
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Maybe Orzhov charm will have a Castigate ability?


Too wordy/good for a charm, IMO. Don't charms usually have 1CMC effects anyways? If anything it would be Duress, though that is still pretty wordy for a card with 3 modes.

EDIT: And since charms are all instants this effect would be incredibly strong and unlikely to appear. 



1.Bad Terror/Bad Plow 2. Token Guy 3. Lifelink or some sort of Drain

xD The charms all seem to have 2 1f1s and one -1 gameswing effect.
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1. Terror (its bad Dark Banishing), maybe Doom Blade
2. Opponent discards a card or you draw a card, their choice. 
3. Unearth 

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"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

1. Terror (its bad Dark Banishing), maybe Doom Blade
2. Opponent discards a card or you draw a card, their choice. 
3. Unearth 



This is insane. Snapcaster Mage into Charm into Snapcaster Mage into Spell? Sign me up

(at)MrEnglish22

Having 6+ mana, WBUU2, and then mana for that other spell won't be that easy. Plus you need the first mage and another in the bin.

And once you're done you've got two 2/1s and something else... not that degenerate for 6+ mana. 

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"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter 
"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Having 6+ mana, WBUU2, and then mana for that other spell won't be that easy. Plus you need the first mage and another in the bin.

And once you're done you've got two 2/1s and something else... not that degenerate for 6+ mana. 



Hashtag value, bro. Hashtag value.
Also, it would be 4 + whatever you want to Snapcast. Unearth brings it into play, so just WUB1 + Mana for second spell.

(at)MrEnglish22

Good point, unearth is good
enough to crush many dreams.
Why not legacy? 

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Favorite Quotes

"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter 
"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Good point, unearth is good
enough to crush many dreams.
Why not legacy? 



Why not zoidberg?

(at)MrEnglish22

I love the idea of a hand attacking, milling control deck. I'm trying to figure out what I'd want to put into it. Lingering souls, jace mind sculptor, duress, appetite, lilliana, dimir charm, sphinx's, azorius charm, underworld connections, snappy, dimir guildmage and maybe that pay 1 sac a creature mill guy. There is something behind this. Attacking the hand early is BRUTAL. T1 duress/app, T2 same thing, T3 liliana, T4 underworld connections is a beating. If anyone else wants to help develop something, please get in touch with me. 
I want to put jace the mind sculptor in decks too, but mean people called "judges" won't let me.

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

Show
139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
I want to put jace the mind sculptor in decks too, but mean people called "judges" won't let me.




Who needs judges! hahah. werps, I meant memory adept, although I'm sure you knew this.
I want to put jace the mind sculptor in decks too, but mean people called "judges" won't let me.




Who needs judges! hahah. werps, I meant memory adept, although I'm sure you knew this.



I'm sure he knew, but its always fun to poke fun at people.

(at)MrEnglish22

I want to put jace the mind sculptor in decks too, but mean people called "judges" won't let me.




Who needs judges! hahah. werps, I meant memory adept, although I'm sure you knew this.



I'm sure he knew, but its always fun to poke fun at people.


That's why it's called "poking fun".

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

Show
139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
I love discard.  I haven't had this much fun since hymn to tourach was legal.

speaking of which, I miss hymn to tourach.
Next thing you will tell me Browbeat is bad.
I love discard.  I haven't had this much fun since hymn to tourach was legal.

speaking of which, I miss hymn to tourach.



Miss your favorite card? There's a format for that.

(at)MrEnglish22

I've thought about a Grixis Delver-ish build with Nivmagus Elemental and heavy discard.  If you've got a Nivmagus out, late game discard is never a dead draw.  That takes out one of the biggest drawbacks of playing too much discard main deck. 
I love discard.  I haven't had this much fun since hymn to tourach was legal.

speaking of which, I miss hymn to tourach.



Miss your favorite card? There's a format for that.



I know, but I want all of standard to share my joy! MWAHAHAHA!
Next thing you will tell me Browbeat is bad.