Can elder's knowledge from pg 24 unknown regions be used with gambling checks

I was looking through feats and found elder's knowledge and this question came to mind.
I was looking through feats and found elder's knowledge and this question came to mind.

And what is your question?

Even if it was in the title you really NEED to put it into your first post because it isn't always easy to see what a title says. 
Can elder's knowledge from pg 24 unknown regions be used with gambling checks?
Can elder's knowledge from pg 24 unknown regions be used with gambling checks?
I was looking through feats and found elder's knowledge and this question came to mind.

And what is your question?

Even if it was in the title you really NEED to put it into your first post because it isn't always easy to see what a title says. 

A little hard on the newbies today?



Can elder's knowledge from pg 24 unknown regions be used with gambling checks?

The answer is yes. However, this makes gambling extremely broken. So your GM might want to limit the "once per encounter" aspect of this feat when it is used with gambling. Perhaps limiting it's use to once per game or once per gambling session.


 

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Technically, yes.  Would I ever allow it?  Almost certainly NOT!  I would however allow you to substitute your INT modifier in place of your WIS modifier when rolling such a check.

My opinion may not matter but anytime you can add a variable to a skill check beyond the d20 and ability modifier to an ability check things can easily get way out of hand.  Now maybe the "once per encounter" limitation can help balance things but I don't really think it can because a gamble check already should be a "once per encounter" roll if it is rolled that often.  I'm sorry, but as presented in the SECR gambling can easily be used as a reason for PCs to have UNLIMITED wealth and I'm not going to make it any easier for them.

If you want to see another sick way to boost your WIS roll take a look as Hyperdriven which will let you add your level in Spacer accessing classes (it says Scoundrel but includes all classes with access to the talent) to basically any d20 roll when on a spaceship.  Have that big, secret, sabaac tournament on some ship travelling trough hyperspace and it's hard to dispute you meet the requirements for its use although there may be nothing to distinguish the setting from somewhere a mile underground.  I alter that talent to be used on any d20 roll made towards the opperation of a vehicle.
 
Thanks for your input I agree it is extremely broken but i was just making sure
Personally, I'd allow it.

Elder's Knowledge requires you spend a feat to get it.

Elder's Knowledge also requires you to spend a feat on Skill Focus for either Knowledge Social Sciences or Galactic Lore.

That's a fairly heavy expenditure character resources already, plus, personally I find Intelligence is an underused ability stat as it is, since it has very little impact on combat, so if this gives it more of a boost, I'm all for it.

I'd chalk it up to something very close to the MIT Blackjack card counting scheme in the '90s.  Smarts plus knowledge can help you beat the odds.   Besides, skill training in knowledge is supposed to represent expert knowledge, with a skill focus in it, that's basically vaulting you to the cream of the crop in terms of what you know in the galaxy, with the intellect to back it up, I'd say it's a combo that could well represent what the MIT team did.

But don't fear, you're also in control of the kind of gambling place the player chooses to frequent, and the consequences of such actions. You as a GM control when and how gambling can come up if they're going against the House, and also how much a maximum bet can be.  It's not uncommon for casino's to list max bets as a matter of helping control against schemes that can play against them with some exceptions for a limited number of high rollers, which are usually well regulated and scrutinized in detail.  The establishment may not be on the up and up.  And even if they are, someone who games the system like this frequently might well find themselves on the receiving end of some tough guy bouncers without anything to show for it, or on banned lists from even entering to play again (see what happened with the MIT Blackjack card counting scheme in Vegas or the MIT MA State lottery scheme).   And if it happens in a particularly unsavory place, consequences could be far far worse.

I'd even let it be used with Insight of the Force on pg41 of CW to let them use a UtF check instead if they wanted to spend the talent on it, since you can get Skill Focus on a skill without being trained in the skill first - and count that as a reasonable approximation of what Qui-Gon did with Watto when he won the cube toss to get Anakin instead of Shmi.

So, I'd say you're still pretty well in control, can use in game consequences to deal with any abuse, and due to that plus the character resources it takes to acheive, you could allow it without much problem.

But I am a relatively permissive GM as far as combinations and rules so long as its at least RAW and not FAQ'd or Errata'd out, and just use what I can bring as challenges against the players to help balance out anything powerful that comes up.
I am Blue/Black
Personally, I'd allow it.

Elder's Knowledge requires you spend a feat to get it.
Elder's Knowledge also requires you to spend a feat on Skill Focus for either Knowledge Social Sciences or Galactic Lore.
That's a fairly heavy expenditure character resources already, ....

I'd chalk it up to something very close to the MIT Blackjack card counting scheme in the '90s. 

But don't fear, you're also in control of the kind of gambling place the player chooses to frequent, and the consequences of such actions. You as a GM control when and how gambling can come up if they're going against the House, and also how much a maximum bet can be.  It's not uncommon for casino's to list max bets as a matter of helping control against schemes that can play against them with some exceptions for a limited number of high rollers, which are usually well regulated and scrutinized in detail.  The establishment may not be on the up and up.  And even if they are, someone who games the system like this frequently might well find themselves on the receiving end of some tough guy bouncers without anything to show for it, or on banned lists from even entering to play again (see what happened with the MIT Blackjack card counting scheme in Vegas or the MIT MA State lottery scheme).   And if it happens in a particularly unsavory place, consequences could be far far worse.

I'd even let it be used with Insight of the Force on pg41 of CW to let them use a UtF check instead if they wanted to spend the talent on it, since you can get Skill Focus on a skill without being trained in the skill first....

.....and just use what I can bring as challenges against the players to help balance out anything powerful that comes up.



That MIT movie was Bringing Down the House, an excellent movie. In the movie, the kid-geniuses counted cards and won within the rules of the game.  The casinos eventually identified these "big-winners" and basically banned them from playing there. A lot of good it did for them to have an 18 INT, Skill Focus: Card-Counting, and Elder's Knowledge (or whatever) when the businesses had them blacklisted and thugs were tracking them down!!!

When Powerball or Magaball lotteries got up intpo $200-300-million, big companies would "invest" a few million in lottery tickets to win those pots. = Skill Focus: Bureacracy + Elder's Knowledge (or some such extra talent).  The lotteries just banned the practice. 

It is always, always, always a good rule-of-thumb to allow players to explorer character options within the given rules. It is nearly always bad to squash people's legitimate, however unbalanced, character ideas. If someone wants to play it, then let them play it.  Fat good it does them not being able to use it!  Or, maybe they are only unrecognized in the Outer Rim territories due to their abuses of the system.

Most definitely, ALWAYS allow character to run what they want within the rules as they are!  A creative GM should always turn it around on them if they max out to an extreme. 

Nez.....best post I have read in a long time.  Thanks!!!

Personally, I'd allow it.

Elder's Knowledge requires you spend a feat to get it.

Elder's Knowledge also requires you to spend a feat on Skill Focus for either Knowledge Social Sciences or Galactic Lore.

That's a fairly heavy expenditure character resources already, plus, personally I find Intelligence is an underused ability stat as it is, since it has very little impact on combat, so if this gives it more of a boost, I'm all for it.


In addition to all of this, I feel that Elder's Knowledge is a pretty useless feat. So I would allow it to be used for gambling as normal. What else would it be good for?


 

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It's not a terrific feat, I'll give you that.  But, it would let you substitute those Knowledge Galactic Lore or Social Science checks for say Perception, Survival, or Treat Injury once per encounter, as they are definitely "wisdom related" checks with wisdom as the core ability for them.  Thats not entirely useless.  Not fantastic, but not useless either.
I am Blue/Black
I would say yes, but with the understanding that it must be a gambling check that is being rolled as part of an actual encounter.  When rolling a simple gambling check to represent a period of time spent betting, then that roll is not a part of a particular encounter.  It could only be used when particular gambling rolls are used as a part of an encounter, which would be pretty rare and almost always require multiple rolls.  For example, it would let you gain a huge advantage for one hand of poker or one round of blackjack, but the rest of the rolls would have to be done without the benefit of the Feat.

That said, I would allow a player to persuade me to give a +1 circumstance bonus from having this Feat for a gambling roll outside of an encounter. 
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(see what happened with the MIT Blackjack card counting scheme in Vegas or the MIT MA State lottery scheme)

The state lottery tried to limit the number of tickets sold, when that didn't work out they closed down the game. No consequnces other then an IRS audit for those who benefited from the scheme. That is what I could find online anyway...  

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"For example, it would let you gain a huge advantage for one hand of poker or one round of blackjack, but the rest of the rolls would have to be done without the benefit of the Feat."



This I would agree with, the Feat is explicit that it's only once per encounter.

"The state lottery tried to limit the number of tickets sold, when that didn't work out they closed down the game. No consequnces other then an IRS audit for those who benefited from the scheme. That is what I could find online anyway..."



Yeah, I don't think anyone went to jail for the lottery scheme, it was legal so far as I know.   But the point is they were stopped.  They gamed the system.  And after they got found out, circumstances changed so that they couldn't any more, the opportunity they took so much advantage of went away.  Doesn't always need to toughs coming to rough someone up.  The galaxy has plenty of politicians.
I am Blue/Black
It's not a terrific feat, I'll give you that.  But, it would let you substitute those Knowledge Galactic Lore or Social Science checks for say Perception, Survival, or Treat Injury once per encounter, as they are definitely "wisdom related" checks with wisdom as the core ability for them.  Thats not entirely useless.  Not fantastic, but not useless either.

I didn't know you could use Elder's Knowledge for Perception, Survival, or Treat Injury. I wasn't sure what a "wisdom-related check" was referring to.

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I originally advised a player in favor of this feat because he was using it in conjunction with an optional rule for -resisting the temptation of the dark side- in which a character with more than half his wisdom in DSS to shake off a gain in DSS by rolling Wisdom against a DC. once per encounter, he would have been able to use his already high Galactic Lore to shake off the DSS increase. he opted for something else, however.

It didn't come to me until it later that it could also be used for gambling. I would allow it in a certain way... Gambling, in any case, has to be GM controlled in some way, and there are many in-universe ways to deal with abusive players. they seem to be all to aware of this, and for good reason.