The Timmiest Keyword I Know

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Apart from the Spawnwrithe ability (community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...), another ability I love is this:
 
Gorge ( Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, put that many +1/+1 counters on it).


It grow your creature hugely over time and encourages attacking whenever you can. I've tested it and it's really, really fun. It's also very powerful and maybe a little bit broken. I see this ability as being both red and green.
  

Darkwood Wurm   3GGG 
Trample, Gorge 
4/4


Blodhelm Cyclops   1RR
Gorge, Haste
2/1 

Darkwood Platebeast   2G
Vigilance, Hexproof, Gorge
1/3
 

Bloodboil Hellkite   3RRG
Flying, Gorge
RG: This creauture gets +1/+0 until end of turn.
2/3
   

Bloodwood Titan   4RRGG
Trample, Doublestrike, Haste   
Whenever Bloodwood Titan is put into your graveyard from anywhere, shuffle it into your library.  
3/3  
   
Young Minotaur   R/G
Gorge
1/1
Now I know you wouldn't want too much of this ability at common. But if it appears at a similar level to what we've seen from the guild mechanics, then I think it could work. Even barring that, Commander has shown us unique abilities can feature even outside of a draftable set.
Wizards just invented a similar mechanic for vampires from the last block, and they always received one single +1/+1 counter because the number of counters would escalate surprisingly quickly in your version.. If your opponent can't handle your one-mana creature immediately, it's suddenly a one-mana 8/8 creature, and that punishes slower decks pretty hard.. Just like with the (almost?) broken Goblin Lackey, you have to destroy the creature almost immediately or you'll have an extremely large problem that costed only one single mana for your opponent.. And that's something that only the most competitive tournament decks can accomplish, while slower casual decks lose quickly! Such dangerous mechanics can be printed on few cards at higher rarity levels, but doesn't really deserve its own keyword and 10-20 cards with the mechanic..
Wizards just invented a similar mechanic for vampires from the last block, and they always received one single +1/+1 counter because the number of counters would escalate surprisingly quickly in your version.. If your opponent can't handle your one-mana creature immediately, it's suddenly a one-mana 8/8 creature, and that punishes slower decks pretty hard.. Just like with the (almost?) broken Goblin Lackey, you have to destroy the creature almost immediately or you'll have an extremely large problem that costed only one single mana for your opponent.. And that's something that only the most competitive tournament decks can accomplish, while slower casual decks lose quickly! Such dangerous mechanics can be printed on few cards at higher rarity levels, but doesn't really deserve its own keyword and 10-20 cards with the mechanic..

 The one drop would presumably be a rare, and might (might) be too powerful. Admittedly, I haven't really tested against control decks, so it's always been blocked when I've played with it. But if you think it's too powerful, really, when does that 1 drop vampire ever reach 4/4? For the same reasons, the Minotaur rarely reaches 8/8. In fact, the vampire is arguably more likely to reach 4/4 than for the minotaur to reach 8/8, since a lot of the early creatures that are seeing play can't block it all. I don't think the one drop is too powerful to see play, unless you built a sligh deck to maximise your chance, and even then Geistflame/Vapor Snag/Oblivion Ring/Ultimate price/Just play a Blocker.
This mechanic is great fun and in my view could appear as a common without being too hard to understand. If the cheap Gorgers are kept under control, the mechanic surely has a future, right? It's my best keyword. Don't kill it too quickly.  But even so, Sweep got keyworded and it was only on three or four cards that nobody played. Curses got their own subtype and less than twenty existed ( even fewer in Innistrad set). Even if this was only on eight or nine cards, it could be keyworded.
I consider myself a timmy and I hate this keyword.

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Okay, but we're still talking about one-mana 4/4 creatures, and slower casual decks that aren't packed with removal spells and low-mana blockers can't handle that creature on the next turns.. I'm afraid that against many decks that are posted in the casual forum, this creature is a one-mana or 8/8 creature or 16/16 creature! Seriously, was Stromkirk Noble that bad, and was its evasion ability that strong?
I consider myself a timmy and I hate this keyword.

That's helpful, except for the fact that it isn't really very helpful at all.
I think it's a very Timmy mechanic. Your creature gets bigger, and then it gets bigger, and then you win while controlling a big creature and you shuffle up and play again. It's a great experience, and the exponential growth is a big part of what makes it fun. Of course, I couldn't expect all Timmies to enjoy this keyword, but certainly it's a Timmy mechanic and it's hard to disagree.
If you were to explain what you disliked about it then I might be more readily able to understand your point of view, but until then I'll just sit here all sad and confused. And a little bit hurt.Frown
Ignore Zokorad, he's always like that.

This mechanic does seem too swingy though. If it works, it dominates, but if you can't get a creature through, it's terrible. The 1-drop really scares me.
Okay, but we're still talking about one-mana 4/4 creatures, and slower casual decks that aren't packed with removal spells and low-mana blockers can't handle that creature on the next turns.. I'm afraid that against many decks that are posted in the casual forum, this creature is a one-mana or 8/8 creature or 16/16 creature! Seriously, was Stromkirk Noble that bad, and was its evasion ability that strong?

So... would Stormkirk Noble be amazing against the Casual Decks? I don't really get what you're saying.
I mean, how bad are these casual decks? Either you run creatures or you run control, and both have the answers they need. Even Intro Decks are strong enough to answer an early Gorger( and I hasten to add, they're not all one drops). It would be good against bad Casual Decks, but not any better than the other powerful rares that do casual over in just about every set. And the other Gorgers would be very fun in Casual, even if Young Minotaur proves to be OP ( and I don't think it is).
Erdwal Ripper seems to be another creature that's weak for you..
Ignore Zokorad, he's always like that.

This mechanic does seem too swingy though. If it works, it dominates, but if you can't get a creature through, it's terrible. The 1-drop really scares me.

Young Minotaur's never been too powerful in the testing I've done. I can see it being overpowered though, depending on the metagame in the area (though I assure you, it isn't in mine. In semi-serious constructed playtesting, I've been siding it in against control, and even then it's been fairly mediocre). Maybe it was a bit ambitious to see such a potentially powerful keyword on a one mana creature, but the comparison to Stromkirk Noble I take to prove that it isn't TOO far from what is seen as printable. I suppose I'll take him out...
Erdwal Ripper seems to be another creature that's weak for you..

Erdwal Ripper sucks. Even if you hit twice (highly unlikely) you'll only get a 4/3 for 3. And that's still a pretty bad investment.
Your version allows you to get a powerful 4/3 creature on your third turn, and if your opponent doesn't have the right answer on his or her third turn, you'll have a ridiculous 8/7 creature on your fourth turn.. Even if your opponent plays a possible blocker on his or her third turn, you just answer with Distortion Strike and you'll have a 9/8 creature on your fourth turn..
Erdwal ripper is a good card.
I just noticed sirwl said it was too "swingy". A fair point, but to that I'd have to say that a lot of mechanics are swingy. The new Gruul mechanic is very swingy, and so is the new Boros keyword "battallion". Some swinginess is good. I think the mechanic encourages you to try to build a deck where the mechanic works best. It's linear but not to the point where you necessarily have to build a deck around it.

If I were to remove Young Minotaur from the set, a potential third colour would be black. To date, black has the only creature with the keyword: a flying 6/5 six drop which gives the ability to all of your creatures. However, I'm more interested in exploring what else the mechanic could do. Lifelink seems like a very interesting choice. I think Darkwood Wurm is the most balanced of the above cards. It's the most interesting, too, since the trample leads to interesting choices. Another option given by black is deathtouch, which gives good synergy.

Your version allows you to get a powerful 4/3 creature on your third turn, and if your opponent doesn't have the right answer on his or her third turn, you'll have a ridiculous 8/7 creature on your fourth turn.. Even if your opponent plays a possible blocker on his or her third turn, you just answer with Distortion Strike and you'll have a 9/8 creature on your fourth turn..



If your opponent is playing control, he'll have a removal spell or else he'll have the life to spare until he draws one. If your opponent is playing creatures, he'll play a Gorger of his own or he'll have the blockers to spare. Since your playing Gorge.dec, you should turn your head to the other Saboteur creatures in recent sets and wonder why Distortion Strike doesn't see play more often. It just gets stuck in your hand!
 Gorge creatures haven't broken the box  in playtestng yet, nor has the six mana vampire I mentioned already. They don't have etb or ltb effects, are killed by removal spells, counters, and board wipe, and are neutralised by simply having a blocker or two.
 


I don't think that you're getting silasw's meaning of "swingy", because s/he criticized the ~very~ large difference between when the mechanic works and when the mechanic doesn't work, and that's mostly regarded as design mistake.. It's extremely powerful when your opponent ~can't~ handle your creatures, and it's absolutely powerless when your opponent ~can~ handle your creatures, unlike "bloodrush" and "battaillon"..
I don't think that you're getting silasw's meaning of "swingy", because s/he criticized the ~very~ large difference between when the mechanic works and when the mechanic doesn't work, and that's mostly regarded as design mistake.. It's extremely powerful when your opponent ~can't~ handle your creatures, and it's absolutely powerless when your opponent ~can~ handle your creatures, unlike "bloodrush" and "battaillon"..

Battalion is swingy. When you're a little bit ahead, you get to Lightning Helix every turn for free ( Firemane Angle). When you're behind, (you don't have three creatures or have to block)  you lose to your opponent's battalion creatures and their battalion effects. Therefore, battalion is SWINGY.
 In testing, Gorge has had the same problem. I'll concede that it's a very swingy mechanic, but only a little bit swingier than battalion.
Erdwal ripper is a good card.

It isn't. It really, really isn't. Check the gatherer rating if you need proof. Even Vampire Neonate, which is really ver bad, got down a turn earlier and reduced the odds of getting blocked, while leaving you more mana and taking up a less vital turn in an aggro deck.
Gatherer ratings are not proof, kiddo. Check its rarity and curve. Haste + that ability? More often then not it comes out a 3/2 for 3, which isn't bad in Red - especially if it already inflicted two damage on your opponent. I would totally play it in Standard Pauper, if I played such things.

139359831 wrote:
That is a lovely painting of Richard Garfield. It really brings out his feminine side.
Gatherer ratings are not proof, kiddo. Check its rarity and curve. Haste + that ability? More often then not it comes out a 3/2 for 3, which isn't bad in Red - especially if it already inflicted two damage on your opponent. I would totally play it in Standard Pauper, if I played such things.

You have a point about the rarity, and its potential in Pauper. But a lot of the cards that are good for certain strategies in Pauper can fairly be labeled as "sucking" for the sake of other formats. This is one of them.

Gatherer ratings are a useful index. I've never encountered a gatherer rating I've disagreed with (apart from the rating on stormcrow). Most people that rate cards on Gatherer are experienced in the game, making the ratings accurate and fairly unbiased.
Grizzly Bears

Runeclaw Bear


People aren't always objective. And heck, if I rated cards, I'd do it more on art/flavour text/and innovation - rather than power level. If you plan on designing cards a lot, remember that making the strongest card isn't the same as making the best card. That's just my two cents, though. I could be incorrect.

139359831 wrote:
That is a lovely painting of Richard Garfield. It really brings out his feminine side.
Grizzly Bears

Runeclaw Bear


People aren't always objective. And heck, if I rated cards, I'd do it more on art/flavour text/and innovation - rather than power level. If you plan on designing cards a lot, remember that making the strongest card isn't the same as making the best card. That's just my two cents, though. I could be incorrect.

Dude, you know fine well you aren't incorrect about the power level thing. 
I don't dislike weak cards: I have traded for Bloodcrazed Neonate in the past so I could play with it more, even though it sucks (if that makes sense). I'm sure that other three drop vampire and I would get along just swell in limited. I have no idea why you seem to think I hate cards of a low power level: they play a vital role. I could never afford to avoid playing with screwy commons. I don't think many people could.
Isn't the Runeclaw/Grizzly rating contrast due to the power growth in creatures, meaning the relative power level of a 2/2 for 2 went down over time? I can't see any other reasons people would hate on a 2/2 bear of all things.
Oh, sorry to make that assumption. BN does have a pretty amazing name.

Um, but I think the difference in rating between the Bears is a nostalgia thing. They stopped printing Grizzlies in 10th Edition, and they'd been a staple forever - so when Runeclaw replaced them, old players were like "Screw that!" Of course, 10th Edition didn't have the best flavour text - why they felt the need to change it, I may never know.

139359831 wrote:
That is a lovely painting of Richard Garfield. It really brings out his feminine side.
Let's do some math, cause right now, I think both sides have valid points. What concerns me most is the growth potential of Minotaur on its own, and the growth potential with pump spells.

Young Minotaur vs. Stromkirk Noble (When played turn 1 against a 20 life opponent that never does anything) 

YM: T1, T2 - 1 (19), T3 - 2 (17), T4 - 4 (13), T5 - 8 (5), T6 - 16 (-11)
SN: T1, T2 - 1 (19), T3 - 2 (17), T4 - 3 (14), T5 - 4 (10), T6 - 5 (5)

After three successful attacks, Minotaur becomes much harder to deal with than Noble. There is some discrepancy, though: Noble can get its hits in easier because of its evasion ability. Also of note, being able to repeatedly hit with a 1-drop should punish the opponent. The question is really "how much?" If your opponent's first play was a turn 4 Day of Judgment, Minotaur would only snag an extra point of life. I think this shows that, while the Minotaur has greater long-game potential than the Noble, they're about the same early game, save that Noble can walk freely in some environments. But that's not the only thing to think about. Take, for instance, the following comparision:

Young Minotaur vs. Glistener Elf (When played turn 1 against a 20 life, 0 poison opponent that never does anything)

YM: T1, T2 Goblin Warpaint - 3 (17), T3 - 6 (11), T4 - 12 (-1)
GE: T1, T2 Goblin Warpaint - 3P (3P), T3 - 3P (6P), T4 - 3P (9P)

I'm using Elf in this example because it's arguably one of the best 1-drops to use pump spells on. As can be seen, the two creatures are comparable in how fast they close things out when pumped. Minotaur gets the slight edge (and a whole turn in a perfect world), but they're really close for the life points that matter.

The problem I have with Minotaur is that it plays both roles simultaneously better than its comparable 1-drops. I don't think it's insanely overpowered, but I do think it causes a bit of oppression on the curve. Gorge itself ain't all that bad, but WOTC would dwarf the cards it's on as a precaution against unfun game-states. Again, look at what they did with the vampires in Innistrad. They were for the most part good in limited, and the 1-drop has served well in Standard. I'm not exactly sure how I'd change your card; I might just keep the elegance and cost it at () instead. Or add some sort of p/t related drawback.

Again, I don't think it's way too good, but enough too good that I'd want to tweak it.
T1 Minatour. T2 cast a +4/+x spell(collossal might, groundswell, others.) Hit for 5, becomes a 6/6. Next turn, assault strobe. Game
I do not like having :whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player: abilities on any cards.  I would like it if you shifted the ability to becoming blocked.  Imo Spawnwrith was a mistake.

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from the perspective of a timmy: i agree with zokorad. Having your abilities work only under conditions that aren't always easy to meet is suboptimal

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T1 Minatour. T2 cast a +4/+x spell(collossal might, groundswell, others.) Hit for 5, becomes a 6/6. Next turn, assault strobe. Game

Same with Glistener Elf though, and again you're assuming A) you've built a deck around the mechanic, B) you've drawn exactly the cards you need, and C) your opponent has done nothing to stop you.

Can we move away from Young Minotaur now? It may or may not be broken ( I still don't think it is, but whatever), but apart from that the mechanic can exist on two drops, three drops, four drops, five drops, six drops, seven drops, and even an eight drop or two if there's room. What about Darkwood Wurm? That's the coolest card I've ever made. 
  


    
from the perspective of a timmy: i agree with zokorad. Having your abilities work only under conditions that aren't always easy to meet is suboptimal

 So what psychograph does Gorge appeal to then? It still seems very Timmy to me. Beating face with a creature that gets bigger with every hit... I imagine you'll say it's Spike, but I really don't think many Gorge cards would see tournament play, especialyy if they were costed at the right level (it seems my group run more removal than most, so I may have underestimated how good the original cards were). Even then, Gorge is easy to counteract and a dedicated Gorge deck can be boarded against fairly easily.
It just seems very Timmy.
 
Yeah, I'd agree that it's a Timmy mechanic. Timmies tend to evaluate cards based on their potential, not based on how likely it is to achieve that potential. I say this as a Timmy myself.

The problem I have with Minotaur is that it plays both roles simultaneously better than its comparable 1-drops. I don't think it's insanely overpowered, but I do think it causes a bit of oppression on the curve. Gorge itself ain't all that bad, but WOTC would dwarf the cards it's on as a precaution against unfun game-states. Again, look at what they did with the vampires in Innistrad. They were for the most part good in limited, and the 1-drop has served well in Standard. I'm not exactly sure how I'd change your card; I might just keep the elegance and cost it at () instead. Or add some sort of p/t related drawback.

Again, I don't think it's way too good, but enough too good that I'd want to tweak it.




The problem is that Gorge as I've playtested is fun and fairly easy to understand. I don't want to stat making inferior, more utilarian alternatives, and keywording the Slith ability, the only other idea I have, is just unnecessary. If the cards could be costed more appropriately, I think the mechanic would have be printable. That 1g/r Young Minotaur still seems appealing to me.

I think I will become the designated crazy old lady/man that hates kids/new designers.
What's up with the many newbies designing overpowered cards and provoking 30-post discussions about some power levels? You know that something's wrong when BankaiMastery's images are suddenly something relieving..
Grizzly Bears

Runeclaw Bear


People aren't always objective. And heck, if I rated cards, I'd do it more on art/flavour text/and innovation - rather than power level. If you plan on designing cards a lot, remember that making the strongest card isn't the same as making the best card. That's just my two cents, though. I could be incorrect.


the best example is dash hopes. the comments are also pretty entertaining 
192884403 wrote:
firstrike
56965458 wrote:
97820278 wrote:
56965458 wrote:
97820278 wrote:
Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
This definitely doesn't mean what you think it means.
I was referring to the painting The Treachery of Images.
I know.
Most comments on Dash Hopes are boring, except for that comment "lel" from someone that's named Purple_Shrimp.. Oh my god, I was laughing for twenty minutes and then fell off my chair!
Dash Hopes is soooooo bad... probably the highest rated card on gatherer that does close to nothing in an actual game.

IMAGE(http://i1.minus.com/jbcBXM4z66fMtK.jpg)

192884403 wrote:
surely one can't say complex conditional passive language is bad grammar ?
What's up with the many newbies designing overpowered cards and provoking 30-post discussions about some power levels? You know that something's wrong when BankaiMastery's images are suddenly something relieving..

Just because I made an overpowered card doesn't mean I'm a newbie. I would rather you hadn't commented, to be honest, so in the future just don't bother.
You joined this forum two days ago, that means that you're a newbie! Look, almost everyone in this forum has posted cards that everyone else considered too effective, but most of them dealt with criticism in different ways.. Are you sure that you tested your cards by playing against some average casual decks that are posted in the casual forum? It's entirely possible to design powerful cards that ~aren't~ completely devastating in non-competitive decks.. I'm afraid that you were wrong and that everyone else was right here, and if you continue posting cards with the same power level (and with rather unexciting abilities that were already printed on multiple existing cards) then you'll always receive many responses that criticize your power levels.. I would appreciate if you stayed in this forum and continued posting cards, but also appreciated the many comments of everyone else, which allows you to increase your design skills..
Learn to let it be cats. Instead of trying to control people, just give them the details.

What you've got here is basically the next Infect. It would have the same impact and implications as Infect has had on the game. It's broken, it's overpowered, it's boring to play against. It's not more Timmy a keyword than Infect either, but that's about all there is to it. As long as you're happy with it, that's all that matters, but it's not very impressive (if that matters to you).

IMAGE(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/1/1c/Spr_4p_389.png)

Learn to let it be cats. Instead of trying to control people, just give them the details.

What you've got here is basically the next Infect. It would have the same impact and implications as Infect has had on the game. It's broken, it's overpowered, it's boring to play against. It's not more Timmy a keyword than Infect either, but that's about all there is to it. As long as you're happy with it, that's all that matters, but it's not very impressive (if that matters to you).

I agree that Gorge has many of the same problems as infect.

It's just very difficult to come up with good creature keywords, making it hard to ditch the few "good" ideas you think you've got. It's also hard to let people attack them (often in an uncurteous manner).
Look, inventing keywords is one of the most difficult things and most other people in this forum have problems with that.. Very often, most people criticize something about presented keywords and that helps you to improve your design skills.. After reading this whole thread for another time, I have to say that people wrote surprisingly detailed comments that could help you much.. Yeah, one person refused to write a large paragraph on why he doesn't like this mechanic, but nevermind!