Spot and Search

With skills not linked to specific Attributes, why do we need both spot and search?  i don't see the need for both. 



 

spot - passive search, notice as you walk past

search - actively searching, looking around an area

just because you are good at looking for things doesnt mean you are just as good at noticing things out of the corner of your eye and vice versa
Exactly.
Spot is basically passive perception, while search is active perception. Spot typically relies on Wisdom, because that represents awareness, while Search typically relies on Intellegence, which is, well, searching for things. Search helps you think of places to look or ways to manipulate your environment to find something (turn the torch holder/pull out the book to reveal the secret door), where Spot lets you notice things (there's a crack in the wall - there must be a secret door!).
And that would be handled just fine by having a general "Perception" skill that is keyed to Wisdom for passive stuff and Int for active stuff. BUT ... it's very easy to house rule that in.
Poe's Law is alive and well. Emerikol is right*
And that would be handled just fine by having a general "Perception" skill that is keyed to Wisdom for passive stuff and Int for active stuff. BUT ... it's very easy to house rule that in.


but as i said, you arent equally as skilled in both as these aspects
And that would be handled just fine by having a general "Perception" skill that is keyed to Wisdom for passive stuff and Int for active stuff. BUT ... it's very easy to house rule that in.


but as i said, you arent equally as skilled in both as these aspects



Right ... because people don't typically have equal Intelligence and Wisdom stats. I did think through that.
Poe's Law is alive and well. Emerikol is right*
So then what is an example of when you would use a different attribute for Spot (not Wisdom)?

and what is am example of when you would use a different attribute for Search (not Intelligence)?

It seems so rare and specific, that again I really think its not as necessary in Next as it was in 3e.  It seems to me to be redundant.
 



 

Non-Wisdom Spot: You climb a tree on look-out duty. You constantly observe the area, trying to spot potential enemies in the distance. This is an Int-based Spot.

Non-Intelligence Search: You shove your hands in the barrel of wheat, and sift through the grains attempting to locate the tiny emeralds hidden within the barrel. This is a Dex-based Search (at least, that's how I'd adjudicate it).

Granted, non-Int Search or non-Wis Spot is not something that comes up often, or non-Dex Balance, non-Str Climb, etc. It is rare and specific, but at least the possibility for such an occurence exists. Before, Search was tied to Int, no chance to improvise or adapt, no chance to be creative.

Edit: Must learn to type properly...
With skills not linked to specific Attributes, why do we need both spot and search?  i don't see the need for both. 

You're not the only one. As written, spot and search are the same thing and track is unneeded as search does everything track does.
Non-Wisdom Spot: You climb a tree on look-out duty. You constantly observe the area, trying to spot potential enemies in the distance. This is an Int-based Spot.



I wouldn't think so. When you're on lookout, you don't know exactly what's out there, you're watching out for telltale signs of any potential threat... so it's a broader picture kind of deal. It would still consider it a Wisdom check.
Non-Wisdom Spot: You climb a tree on look-out duty. You constantly observe the area, trying to spot potential enemies in the distance. This is an Int-based Spot.



I wouldn't think so. When you're on lookout, you don't know exactly what's out there, you're watching out for telltale signs of any potential threat... so it's a broader picture kind of deal. It would still consider it a Wisdom check.



if you're constantly surveying an area for anything out of the ordinary, i think it would be search.

spot is reactionary, search is active.

 

How to Play, Noticing and Finding, Page 9
As a general rules, your Wisdom serves as a measure of your general awareness of your surroundings, whether you notice creatures lurking in ambush, hear the stealthy tread of an approaching assassin, or catch the telltale whiff of troglodyte in the air.


Your Intelligence measures your ability to find something you're looking for, whether it's the faint outline of a secret door in a wall, the hollow sound of a hidden compartment in the bottom of a chest, clues to a murder, or the footsteps of an invisible creature in the dust.


 
How to Play, Noticing or Finding a Hidden Creature, Page 10
The DM usually asks you for a Wisdom check if you have no idea a creature is present and thus no reason to be actively searching, or if you're taking a moment to scan your surroundings or listen for movement.

 
  
From the way they make it sound, regardless of the skill, Wisdom appears to be passive, and Intelligence appears to be active (i.e. aware that there is a danger present, secret door, treasure, etc.).

As to when to use Spot or Search skills, it seems really iffy to me.  I was a fan of collapsing them all into a Perception skill. 

Still, the Spot skill, to me, implies quick scans of a room/treeline/etc., active or passive, and has more to do with noticing creatures in the area than objects.  Search seems to imply you are looking for inanimate clues of some kind (footprints, secret doors, traps, etc.).  The line blurs when you are looking for a clues a creature came through the area, but one is for spotting a creature in hiding, and the other is searching for clues it was/is in the area to begin with.  I came to these assumptions by reading the skill descriptions (Backgrounds and Skills, page 10).

While normally using Search would imply Intelligence checks, because generally you have an idea of what you're looking for, at least in this system it allows you to also passively look for traps or hidden doors, as an example.  So, the rogue could be marching first down a hallway and the DM could ask them to make a Wisdom-based Search check because they stepped next to a trap trigger.  Or, if the rogue is actively searching for traps, he makes an Intelligence-based Search check.

That is my take on it anyway.

Edit: Fixed some quotes for better context, and formatting. =)
Thanks for those examples lok_soldier.  Thats helpful to see what they were thinking.  

Yes, trebor_rjf, I played a lot of 3.5 so I'm familiar with the active and passive difference.  I was just wondering how you would really use other attributes. 

From the examples given in this thread, and the differing opinions in the feedback, I think it shows that there needs to be something done to fix it, or to bring clarity.  

My opinion is that in 3.5 it was necessary to have separate skills for active and passive because they were linked directly to an attribute.  In this Next edition it seems like an oversight and doesn't fit wit versilitiy of other skills.  I think more general Perception skill would open up more possiblities for drawing on other attributes.



 

 if you're constantly surveying an area for anything out of the ordinary, i think it would be search.

spot is reactionary, search is active.



But you're not actively searching, you're surveying. You don't know what you're looking for, and there might even be nothing to worry about, you're just hoping to spot something perchance; its very passive. You don't stop to analyse every crease on every leaf, or to look at a branch for tell-tale signs of every single potential threat that could have caused it to snap.

Now, if you know you have assassins on your tail then it leans towards intellect, because you're actively searching for signs of  specifically those assassins... but if that's the case then you may lose sight of other threats.

Wisdom as more general (not necessarily reactionary), but Intellect as more focused. That's why Wisdom represents common sense while Intellect represents specialized, scholarly knowledge. 
Based on my personal experience, I have to go with the 3.75 model of using Wisdom for all Perception checks.  My reasoning is this:  my teenage daughter, honor student and very intelligent kid (also a hardcore otaku and LARPer) probably has an Intelligence of 16 or 17 at least.  However, when asked to find a specific item (i.e. make a Search check), can't find a barn door if it hit her in the face.  I love her, but it's true.  I'm the same way.  I have the book smarts, but am constantly losing my glasses, keys, wallet, etc.  Using Wisdom for Perception adequately reflects the "absent-minded professor" phenomenon.
If one use is active, and an other is passive, then it is basically the same skill being applied in different contexts.

Every other skill can apply actively or passively, depending on context. It would be silly to have two of every skill. Active Religion check versus passive Religion check? Active Balance check versus passive Balance check? Clumbsy design. Likewise, having active Perception versus passive Perception as two separate skills is similarly clumbsy.
If one use is active, and an other is passive, then it is basically the same skill being applied in different contexts.

Every other skill can apply actively or passively, depending on context. It would be silly to have two of every skill. Active Religion check versus passive Religion check? Active Balance check versus passive Balance check? Clumbsy design. Likewise, having active Perception versus passive Perception as two separate skills is similarly clumbsy.




I agree.



 

If one use is active, and an other is passive, then it is basically the same skill being applied in different contexts.

Every other skill can apply actively or passively, depending on context. It would be silly to have two of every skill. Active Religion check versus passive Religion check? Active Balance check versus passive Balance check? Clumbsy design. Likewise, having active Perception versus passive Perception as two separate skills is similarly clumbsy.




I agree.

Yep. +1