Makashi/Jar'kai and Lightsaber Form powers...

So I was playin around with some character ideas (for both PC and NPC) and I ran across a couple of issues with some Jedi/lightsaber wielder stuff.

Basically both use the Lightsaber Defense talent to different effects. For clarification, Lightsaber Defense increases REF by 1 as a swift so long as you are wielding a lightsaber, it can be taken multiple times to max +3 and cannot be used if you are flat-footed or unaware of the attack. Makashi allows an increase of 2 in the overall bonus when a lightsaber is wielded in one hand. Jar'Kai doubles the Lightsaber Defense bonus when two lightsabers are used. The main question I have is does Jar'Kai include the Makashi bonus?

Seems to me like it would but I'd be willing to differ if the response is negative.

Also, some of the Lightsaber Form powers bug me. One of the biggest is Draw Closer. For all intents and purposes it looks like Move Object got melded with an attack but it seems like the UtF check for the move is only applying against DCs and no defense. I understand that no damage is done by the actual move under this power but that seems off to me. It's not just Draw Closer, there are others, but maybe some clarity into this one will help sort out my confusion with the rest.

As a side note, is the attack off a Lightsaber Form power a separate roll or the original UtF check? My current ruling is a separate roll, but this is another thing I would differ to.
You can have both the Jar'Kai and Makashi talents, but you can't use them both at the same time, since Jar'Kai requires you to be using two lightsabers, and Makashi only applies if you're wielding a single lightsaber.

You're right about using a lightsaber form power that grants an attack. The attack roll is separate.

As for the way the form powers are written, I think I'll let someone else handle that one. ;) 
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The main question I have is does Jar'Kai include the Makashi bonus?

No, because as FTJ pointed out, Makashi only works "When wielding a single lightsaber in one hand" as the talent description states. So you get either Makashi OR Jar'kai bonus, but not both.



Also, some of the Lightsaber Form powers bug me. One of the biggest is Draw Closer. For all intents and purposes it looks like Move Object got melded with an attack but it seems like the UtF check for the move is only applying against DCs and no defense. I understand that no damage is done by the actual move under this power but that seems off to me.

There is no defense to target. The UtF DC sets the maximum size of the target you can move. Also, the power has a short range, only 6sq. Also, this is one of the few lightsaber form powers that can actually be Rebuked.



It's not just Draw Closer, there are others, but maybe some clarity into this one will help sort out my confusion with the rest.

Which other powers do you need help with?



As a side note, is the attack off a Lightsaber Form power a separate roll or the original UtF check? My current ruling is a separate roll, but this is another thing I would differ to.

You are correct. You make a UtF check and compare it to the DC of the power. Then you make another roll for your attack.

 
 

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It isn't Jar"Kai or Makashi, but the Hawk Bat Swoop power just requires an "action." Anyone care to tell me what action? My instinct says standard but I've been wrong before.
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I don't have the books in front of me so I don't have that particular reference right now, but most lightsaber form powers are standard. A couple are reactions. I think one or two may be swift. Hawk-bat Swoop is one of my favorites and I'm pretty sure it's a standard.

As to powers like Draw Closer (and to be fair, it's mainly just that and Pushing Slash where you roll a UtF but it's not going against a defense. I think there's another like those that bugged me, but again I don't have the books with me) it just seems... unbalanced by comparison to similar Force Powers (Move Object and Force Thrust are the two similar powers that come to mind) that the movement doesn't go against a defense.

Example: let's say you have two melee fighters, one Force-wielding with Draw Closer. If the two melee fighters are standing adjacent to each other, or close to each other, the Force-wielder can use Draw Closer and most characters at least LV10 (depending on training and bonuses) can move most targets, since most NPCs will be medium or smaller, into a threatened, possibly a flanked situation. It's not a definite, but it is a possibility.
It isn't Jar"Kai or Makashi, but the Hawk Bat Swoop power just requires an "action." Anyone care to tell me what action? My instinct says standard but I've been wrong before.


The general consensus was Standard.




As to powers like Draw Closer (and to be fair, it's mainly just that and Pushing Slash where you roll a UtF but it's not going against a defense. I think there's another like those that bugged me, but again I don't have the books with me) it just seems... unbalanced by comparison to similar Force Powers (Move Object and Force Thrust are the two similar powers that come to mind) that the movement doesn't go against a defense.

Example: let's say you have two melee fighters, one Force-wielding with Draw Closer. If the two melee fighters are standing adjacent to each other, or close to each other, the Force-wielder can use Draw Closer and most characters at least LV10 (depending on training and bonuses) can move most targets, since most NPCs will be medium or smaller, into a threatened, possibly a flanked situation. It's not a definite, but it is a possibility.


I don’t see Draw Closer as being a problem. You’re just bringing in the target for a melee attack. Without this power, you can generally charge 6sq with a +2 attack bonus and a -2 Reflex penalty. You have spend a precious Force power slot to get this power, and you can only use it a limited amount of times per encouter. It seems balanced to me


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I think for me it's the distinct lack of damage from the Draw Closer that makes it okay. In your example both Move Object and Force Thrust will do damage... this power doesn't guarantee anything aside from saving a character a move action. A more creative user will maybe set up some interesting AoOs for your allies later on but otherwise its fairly limited in its use.