Looking for punishment when enemy saves against an effect

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Any class, any race and any level of item. I am just trying to impose a penalty if the enemy saves against an effect. We are coming into the end game and we will be fighting one of thoe gods I am sure. They all save at the instant an effect is put on them and they have a +5 to save. I found a utility power, which I gain from the Secrets of Belial feat, but I can't seem to find any items or other feats that do something similar. Perhaps i am using the wrong search terms

I seem to remember a build that imposed crazy penalties to saving throws or effects once the enemy has saved. Anyone know what that build was?

EDIT: Ok, ongoing damage taken care of. Now I just need penalty to saves so they don't get to save on a 5
The ranged weapon Bard has a nice E17 Immediate Interrupt - Sudden Rebuke - which triggers on an enemy succeeding on a save, and on hit, does damage and gives a wis-based penalty to the save.
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Tiefling wizard - Hellfire master, when they save against your fire effect, they take 5+ cha damage.
Tiefling - Icy clutch of stygia (cha/5+cha/10+cha by tier) when they save against ongoing damage.

Easiest way I found was to use slashing kama with the desert wind monk to turn your fire based FoB into ongoing.  At epic, thats 15+2xcha.
I love the Icy Clutches feat, but as a wizard/rogue charger I can't find a way to get that darned ongoing 8(

I can get tricky with some utility powers and feats and races but I don't think I can swing being a monk. 
If you can find some way to give fire vulnerability to enemies, there is the paragon tier wizard feat Consuming the Weak, which gives ongoing 5 fire when you hit an enemy vulnerable to fire with an arcane fire attack. It works really well as an elemental pact warlock focusing on fire.
If you can find some way to give fire vulnerability to enemies, there is the paragon tier wizard feat Consuming the Weak, which gives ongoing 5 fire when you hit an enemy vulnerable to fire with an arcane fire attack. It works really well as an elemental pact warlock focusing on fire.




Hmm, I am a wizard, and I am using an arcane power for my charge. I wonder if I can get fire on that too. And then to find vulnerable fire. I know I have seen it somewhere.

Hmm, I see ammunition that gives a bit of ongoing, don't think I can squeeeze an arrow into an Arcane charging build. 
I don't think Sarifal would work, due to it giving out vulnerability to your attacks that do fire, not vulnerability to fire damage.
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There is the consumable item Whetstone of Combustion, which, once applied to a weapon, causes hits from that weapon to confer fire vulnerability to the next fire attack used against that enemy for the rest of the encounter. So, you could load up on those, though that might become a bit expensive.
I think whetstone is the winner. I don't care how much ongoing I do so I can just get a horde of heroic tier whetstones and use them each encounter. WOOT!
Now I guess the trick is to give them a minus to save. These big guys have a +5 to all saves so they almost guarantee a save.
For a rogue, just get the Thuranni Shadowkiller PP. Ongoing damage whenever you have CA, easily.
I'm not sure that "vulnerable 5 fire against the next attack that deals fire damage to it." is sufficient to be vulnerable fire for the feat to work.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein

Cunning Weapon is a weapon enchant that gives enemies -2 to saves vs effects from the weapon. The wizard feat Spell Focus also gives a -2 penalty to saves vs your wizard powers.


I'd suggest taking a look at Mommy_was_an_Orc's build "The Illusion of Hope"
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

It is very good a handing out penalties to saves, though some of the tricks that it uses won't be available to you because it is a hybrid invoker

I'm not sure that "vulnerable 5 fire against the next attack that deals fire damage to it." is sufficient to be vulnerable fire for the feat to work.



I can see how there might be an argument to that effect. I can see a ruling going either way.

Perhaps somebody with more knowledge than me of how to parse this wording could clear this up?
I'm not sure that "vulnerable 5 fire against the next attack that deals fire damage to it." is sufficient to be vulnerable fire for the feat to work.



I think it should be, actually.  It's pretty close to Arcane Fire, and the general consensus is that AF triggers Wintertouched.  Unless I'm way off here?
Here's what to watch out for, though ...

Some of the really big baddies out there don't *save* from effects ... the effects just end on them.

Afteraffects don't kick in unless the target made the saving throw and succeeded.  Penalties to save and rerolls won't help if the (save ends) effect just stops being there.

Boss fights in 4e tend to drag out because of this.     
Now I guess the trick is to give them a minus to save. These big guys have a +5 to all saves so they almost guarantee a save.


I don't get it. If your building for dealing heavy punishment when they save, why would you them to not save?
Now I guess the trick is to give them a minus to save. These big guys have a +5 to all saves so they almost guarantee a save.


I don't get it. If your building for dealing heavy punishment when they save, why would you them to not save?

Catch-22.  They fail the save and have to deal with the effect for a bit longer, or they make the save and get whapped with a rolled-up newspaper.  At least, I think that's the idea.

Its not a Catch-22 in the typical defender scheme though. Its just making ongoing damage a little worse. But frankly, its usually a losing proposition because it requires they take the ongoing for a turn. These threads have popped up Ad Nauseum (Seriously MeleeECL, at least ATTEMPT to find where nearly all your posts have already occured, asked, and been answered). And they've always been a mediocre Op goal.
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Catch-22 for 10 damage at the cost for multiple items and feats. Sooooooooooooooo worth it!

ok, I kinda do see why people say all my posts are sarcastic or passive aggressive, but seriously, you aren't going to make optimizing around ongoing damage worth more than optimizing Damage Now! The only reason to have had those feats was on a Blaster Epic Wizard that's taking the Prismatic X Daily powers, since those powers got nerfed and other options for Striker Wizard have become available the combo isn't worth it anymore. You can just spend the feat and gold on other things that directly increase your damage by a more relevant amount.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
No skin off my nose, since it's not my build idea. Tongue Out
Catch-22 for 10 damage at the cost for multiple items and feats. Sooooooooooooooo worth it!

ok, I kinda do see why people say all my posts are sarcastic or passive aggressive, but seriously, you aren't going to make optimizing around ongoing damage worth more than optimizing Damage Now! The only reason to have had those feats was on a Blaster Epic Wizard that's taking the Prismatic X Daily powers, since those powers got nerfed and other options for Striker Wizard have become available the combo isn't worth it anymore. You can just spend the feat and gold on other things that directly increase your damage by a more relevant amount.




Well, I don't want to spend too much to get this done. Let me go over what I have done so far. I used a feat (Secrets of Belial) to get a utility power that gives an untyped penalty of 2 to all saving throws against effects I give. I daze every round through my Dispater's rod (used as a mace) ad it is save ends. Since most high level creatures seem to have a bonus to saves I figured it would  for another -1. This spell focus feat is awesome also  but I don't know if I have room for it, that would be another -2.

So 1 feat and then changed my familiar and then I took Icy LCutches of Stygia for 10 +int mod dmg on a save. That is 20 dmg. That doesn't seem like a negligible add when they save against my effect probably every round or at least every other. Also they have a small ongoing until they save (probably resisted but it still counts as ongoing). So for 2 feats and changing my familiar I get a far better chance of them failing the throw and also 20 dmg if they do, dazed if they don't. Can you think of a better use for 2 feats and a familiar? There very likely is a better use and I just haven't thought of it yet. I use beast switch to charge with my dispater's rod. and I focus on lightning dmg for my slides, so if you can think of a better use for 2 feats let me know, I am very open to all sugestions.

EDIT: Ok, so I dropped my familiar and took spell focus since it is better than the familiar and less conditional. 
MC Fighter, Dizzying Mace.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Oh gosh, I do like Dizzying mace. I am MC'd Druid right now for their awesome charging feats. Stampede, enraged boar form and I am themed into Wererat so I can use beast form with my weapon/item set.
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