Question about Divine Metamagic

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Honestly, I have no idea what Divine Metamagic really does, everyone says this is a feat I must take at least once but I see no real advantage in it which means I must not understand it.

Lets say I were to take the metamagic feat Fast Spell or Destructive Force or Consistant Spell then take Divine Metamagic, what would Divine Metamagic do to the above mentioned feats? I've read that Divine Metamagic can be taken before any other metamagic feat (which makes no sense to me) how would this work?

If someone could explain exactly why Divine Metamagic is so powerful without quoting the Benefit Description (I've read it, I still do not get it) that would be great.

Thanks in advance for the help!
Honestly, I have no idea what Divine Metamagic really does, everyone says this is a feat I must take at least once but I see no real advantage in it which means I must not understand it.

Lets say I were to take the metamagic feat Fast Spell or Destructive Force or Consistant Spell then take Divine Metamagic, what would Divine Metamagic do to the above mentioned feats? I've read that Divine Metamagic can be taken before any other metamagic feat (which makes no sense to me) how would this work?

If someone could explain exactly why Divine Metamagic is so powerful without quoting the Benefit Description (I've read it, I still do not get it) that would be great.

Thanks in advance for the help!


Divine Metamagic cannot be taken before those feats - in fact, it should say "Choose a metamagic feat that you have". (Check the errata.) It only works with the one feat you choose.

Basically, it lets you expend Turn Undead attempts (which never see use beyond the lowest levels, and there only rarely) instead of extra spell levels when you cast a spell using the metamagic feat you chose. The number of turn attempts it takes is 1+the feats' slot ajustment.

Here's the basic example.

Human Cleric 1
Domains: Undeath (bonus feat: Extra Turning), Planning (Bonus Feat: Extend Spell)
Human bonus feat: Persistent Spell
Level 1 feat: Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell

Persistent Spell costs +6 spell levels and modifies any Personal or fixed-range spell to last 24 hours. However, since you have 7+CHA turn attempts available to you, you can cast any of your first-level buff spells (even the ones that only last a round, or a round per level) and have them last all day. You simply spend 7 Turning attempts instead of preparing the spell in a higher-level slot.

Normally, you'd need a 7th level slot open to do this with a 1st level spell. Here, notably, you don't - you can cast "persistent spells" from level 1. 

By the time you hit level 7, you're doing this with Divine Power. By 9, add on Righteous Might. Both of these are in the Player's Handbook.

Persistent Spell is usually the best feat to consider with Divine Metamagic, but it can find use with other metamagic feats as well (Quicken is a reasonable second-choice).  

The big thing here is that it lets you reduce costs of metamagic (very good) AND it lets you cast spells that would normally take a higher-level slot than you normally could cast (which is VERY VERY good).  It only costs you a resource you probably weren't using anyway.

See why it's amazingly powerful? If not, spend some time reading the cleric spells again and you'll see. 

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Lets say I were to take the metamagic feat Fast Spell or Destructive Force or Consistant Spell then take Divine Metamagic, what would Divine Metamagic do to the above mentioned feats? I've read that Divine Metamagic can be taken before any other metamagic feat (which makes no sense to me) how would this work?

DMM was errata'd; it now has to be specified what metamagic feat si to be used with it, and you have to already have the feat you want to use.

Normal human feat selection is as follows:
1 - Extend Spell, Extra Turning (Human Bonus feat)
3 - Persistent Spell (Complete Mage or Arcane)
6 - Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)

Couple that with items like Nightsticks (Libris Mortis) and Cloaks of Charisma, you're getting all day buffs "for free".  It doesn't mean so much with 3rd-level spells, but 4th gives you Freedom of Movement and Divine Power, 5th gives you Righteous Might, and there are probably others I'm forgetting.  Now do you see why it's good? 
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Most of the time when you want to use a MM feat you need to use a higher level spell slot for that spell.  For example a Fireball (sorry for using arcane but the same will apply to divine spells) is a 3rd level spell but if you use Empower to increase damage by 50% it will require using a 5th-level spell slot to cast BUT it is still resisted (ie. Saves and immunities) as if it were a 3rd-level spell.  The slot increase is the normal "cost" of using a metamagic feat.

What Divine Metamagic does is that it allows you to apply a chosen MM feat to a spell you know WITHOUT INCREASING ITS SLOT REQUIREMENT.  You also do not need to specifically prepare the spell using the MM before hand.  Instead of increasing the slot requirement for the spell what DMM allow you to do is burn off Turn/Rebuke Undead uses instead where you burn of one turn per slot increase plus one more to cover using DMM.  To use a MM feat that normally increases the slot by +2 levels you "spend" 3 uses of turn undead instead.  This is VERY nice because you don't need to use higher level spell slots to take advantage of a MM feat and in most campaigns Turn Undead attempts really aren't that useful.  If you have enough turn attempts it is also nice because you can use DMM on a spell without specifically preparing for the MM before hand.

As for taking DMM before you take another MM feat that is really a lie.  When you take DMM you choose a MM feat you know (ie. one you already have) for the DMM to apply to.  You may be amazed at the people who try to get away with taking DMM (Persistent spell) and using it without having the Persistent Spell or it's prereq Extended Spell metamagic feats first.

I'm going to be honest and say I do NOT recognize those feats (Fast Spell, Consistant Spell, or Destructive Force) but what DMM does is allow you to use them without slot increases or early preparation by spending turn undead attempts instead.  If you "Fast Spell" is really Quicken Spell for example having DMM (Quicken) will allow you to spend 5 turn attempts to use Quicken Spell instead of specifically preparing a spell in a slot +4 levels higher then normal.
 
Hopefully you have gotten your question answered since I imagine all three of us were typing up our responses at the same time and basically are telling you the same thing.
 
yeah I definitely missed that, I kept reading how bad certain metamagic feats were when I'm only allowed to cast a level 1 spell but have to give up a 4th level spell to get the extra effect. Huge difference.

Thanks for the posts guys.

...really wishing I knew about this when I started my character. lol. Oh well, will fix that soon enough. :D
Some MM feats are bad but some are "too good" if/when they are cheap and easy to use.  Persistent Spell is rarely seen where someone needs to give up a spell +6 slots higher to make some effect last all day especially when that is all it does (it still dispels like a lower level spell) but it is a favorite amoung DMM users because they can effectively get the benefit for "next to nothing."  Now it is still three feats plus a LOT of turn uses but taking some of those 1 round/level effects (that's something you should actually track during a fight) and having them last all day is HUGE.

In a lot of cases all a MM feat gets you is some versatility with your current spells because often there actually is a spell that does something close to what the MM spell would do at that same level.  For the lesser (+1 slot) MM feats they are more about making something a bit more useful but often not too game changing.

The "once per day" metamagic feats would be the Sudden MM feats and some of them are pretty nice.  With most of them you can apply a certain MM to any spell you know but only once per day.  This makes them versatile and because they don't increase the slot requirement can be fairly powerful.
 
so what are the good Metamagic feats to take? I kind of want to have Divine Metamagic (Persistant) but I would have to take 3 feats and I'm already a level 8 cleric.

I have dipped into the Bone Knight class and will be leveling that up to max, I am currently the the main healer of the party but I do not really need to improve my healing abilities (I have yet to fail to save anyone or make a significant impact with my healing spells).

Thanks again for the help with the Metamagic feats.
oh and I have a quick question about Powerless Spell.

Being a cleric, am I able to counter spells like fireball or lightning bolt? I get the feeling I cannot.

Assuming I can't, then do I have to have the spell prepared first? Like to counter a Summon Monster 4, do I have to have Summon Monster 4 readied? And if I do do I lose that spell slot as well as a 2nd level slot?

Sorry for the quick posts and all the questions, I'm reading different spells as I post. lol.
Someone may have a good answer to those questions but I'm not normally a "magic" person and really don't pay a lot of attention to how MM is going to work with clerical spells.  I look at normal MM feat with spontaneous casters because of the versatility it provides with a limited number of spells known; in that situation I actually like Heighten Spell because it actually makes a spell a higher level spell which boosts the DC and allows it to punch through certain spell level based defenses.  If you start "cheating" on your MM feats there are all kinds of crazy things that can be done.

A cleric CAN "counter" spells like fireball or lightning bolt but they would need to do it by trying to use Dispel Magic on them as they are cast.  Dispel Magic and its kin can be used a "universal" counterspells BUT they are not always successful.  The "normal" counterspell requires you to have the same spell prepared (either prepared or known with an available slot for a spontaneous caster) which you would the "cast" as a counter to someone else casting that same spell.  To counter a Summon Monster 4 spell you would need to use your own Summon Monster 4 spell BUT using this method is guarenteed to counter the spell.  I guess I don't know where that 2nd level slot is coming from unless it has something to do with Powerless Spell which I am unfamiliar with.

When it comes to countering spells there are basically three four ways to do it:
1.  Recognize the spell (spellcraft check) and use the same spell (you don't need any MM that may be used on the other spell) to counter that spell.
2.  Recognize the spell and use a specific counter (usually names with the spell and having an opposite effect) to counter the spell.
3.  Just use Dispel Magic against a spell being cast (you don't need to know what spell is being cast) and MAYBE counter the spell.

4.  BONUS Option, HOSTILE SPELL COUNTER:  Ready a spell (or a number of other things for that matter) that you cast against another caster when they start casting their spell.  The idea here is to cause damage or some other effect that will force the other caster to make a Concentration check or lose the spell they were trying to cast.  This is NOT the same as the AoO that spellcasting often draws and if that happens then there may be additional Concentrations checks that need to be made.  Note that ANYONE can use this "counter-spell" options assuming they are in a position to interfer with a spellcaster's casting.
had a feeling it worked that way, thanks for the detailed answer. I guess the only thing left to do is to find a good Metamagic feat that would be good for me and that is 10x better when I get the Divine Metamagic feat.

Anyone have any ideas?
Ask your DM if he'll let you use the retraining rules in PHB2 right now to get Extend Spell (you would lose one of your current feats), again when you gain a level, which is the time specified in the rules (losing another current feat to get Persistent Spell), and then make you 9th level feat DMM (Persistent Spell). IF YOU DECIDE TO DO THIS, make sure your DM knows what you plan to be doing with it. It's potentially game-damaging, so it's not something you want to spring on him as a "surprise".
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
IF YOU DECIDE TO DO THIS, make sure your DM knows what you plan to be doing with it. It's potentially game-damaging, so it's not something you want to spring on him as a "surprise".


This really can't be stressed enough, don't spring character build surprises on the DM!  Sure you may like to build stong characters but some (many?) DMs may not be prepared for some of the stuff that PCs can do with seemingly "innocent" abilities.  In a lot of cases the cleric's use of DDM (Persistent) and a certain buff or two makes any warrior types in the party look like NPCs.
 
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