Two-Handed Two-Weapon Fighting Question

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My DM is beginning a new campaign and he is allowing our group to make a level 5 Character to begin with. I've been thinking of making a Human Dragon Shaman. Let's say I wanted to fight by dual-wielding two longspears. 

I should have 3 feats since I get one at level 1 & 3 and because I'm a human at level 5. At level 6, I should gain an extra feat and end up with 4 feats to spend. Which feats would you best recommend me using to minimize the pentalties of duel-wielding these two-handed longspears?
See my response in (one of?) the other section(s?) you posted this. It causes confusion and delay when you post the same thing in multiple sections of the forums.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Ever spend any time in the psychic reading rooms/tarot reading rooms/etc Draco? It's the same thing but a 1000% worse... pathetic "hopefuls" that troll room-to-room for hours or days on end with the same question, hoping upon hope that they'll finally get the "answer" that they want to hear. 

So sad. 
Ever spend any time in the psychic reading rooms/tarot reading rooms/etc Draco? It's the same thing but a 1000% worse... pathetic "hopefuls" that troll room-to-room for hours or days on end with the same question, hoping upon hope that they'll finally get the "answer" that they want to hear. 

So sad. 

I don't think he's trying to find a specific answer, Neue; they were all posted around the same time, so my guess is that he posted the same thread everywhere he thought it "should" go, in hopes of getting an answer at all.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
My DM is beginning a new campaign and he is allowing our group to make a level 5 Character to begin with. I've been thinking of making a Human Dragon Shaman. Let's say I wanted to fight by dual-wielding two longspears. 

I should have 3 feats since I get one at level 1 & 3 and because I'm a human at level 5. At level 6, I should gain an extra feat and end up with 4 feats to spend. Which feats would you best recommend me using to minimize the pentalties of duel-wielding these two-handed longspears?




You can't dual wield longspears.

Although it is prohibitively expensive and also inefficent you could dual wield large shortspears.  Those would be 1d8 damage piercing weapons (no reach) and you would need to use Monkey Grip (CW) to use them with one-hand (you still take the -2 penalty for the size) and would probably want the feat that allows you to dual weild a second one-handed weapon without additional penalty on top of the two-weapon fighting feat.  Oops...   I just realized that Monkey Grip wouldn't work with the off-hand weapon which shuts down the idea of wielding two large shortspears.

If you really want my "best recommendation" on how to dual-wield longspears it is simple: DON'T!
My DM is beginning a new campaign and he is allowing our group to make a level 5 Character to begin with. I've been thinking of making a Human Dragon Shaman. Let's say I wanted to fight by dual-wielding two longspears. 

I should have 3 feats since I get one at level 1 & 3 and because I'm a human at level 5. At level 6, I should gain an extra feat and end up with 4 feats to spend. Which feats would you best recommend me using to minimize the pentalties of duel-wielding these two-handed longspears?

well you can use a large weapon in your hand but not in your off hand with the next feats you can take a longspear and a longsword or other medium weapon in your off hand with -4 on all your attacks

Monky Grip
Two-weapon fighting
Overzised Two-Weapon Fighting

then as example a character with 14 of Str and BA of +3 and no special bonus(feats like Weapon focus or bonus like the ones of MW weapons ) have the next full attack (in the case of a large creature)

LongSpear +1 1d8+2
LongSword +1 1d8 +1

the only good point of this is that you can attack in reach or adjacent foes but you only going to use one weapon and your attacks only take -2 Penalty then your attacks if you only use one weapon will be +3 in this example instead of +1.

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Just go for the dwarven double spear (races of stone).  Requires only two-weapon fighting up front, and gets the added bonus of also doing slashing or piercing damage.  
well you can use a large weapon in your hand but not in your off hand with the next feats you can take a longspear and a longsword or other medium weapon in your off hand with -4 on all your attacks

Monky Grip
Two-weapon fighting
Overzised Two-Weapon Fighting

then as example a character with 14 of Str and BA of +3 and no special bonus(feats like Weapon focus or bonus like the ones of MW weapons ) have the next full attack (in the case of a large creature)

LongSpear +1 1d8+2
LongSword +1 1d8 +1

the only good point of this is that you can attack in reach or adjacent foes but you only going to use one weapon and your attacks only take -2 Penalty then your attacks if you only use one weapon will be +3 in this example instead of +1.

Wrong.  Or at least it is wrong until/unless you can tell me what edition/resources you are using.

We just had a "blow up" discussion about Monkey Grip (3.5, CW) and how it DOES NOT ALLOW a character to use a two-handed weapon with one hand.  You can use Monkey Grip to wield a large shortspear (assuming you medium sized) with one hand (which incidently has stats very similiar to a normal spear) but it does NOT allow you to wield a longspear with one hand.

Although one was probably made somewhere I can't think of any weapons that are wielded with one-hand that have reach.  Now even if you did have such a weapon you may want to "dual wield" it with a regular one handed weapon and then just use one of the two weapons depending on where your opponent is.



Sorry but it allow you use a medium weapon of a large in one hand and a medium weapon for a large is a large weapon for a medium (weapon equivalence).

As example a Greadsword is like a Long Sword For a large Creature then if you buy a long Sword Large you can use it with monky grip with one hand as is well described in the feat and this weapon deal damage as a largeweapon (2d6) and can be used as greadsword instead of longsword for feats.

"You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but the amount of effort it takes you to use the weapon does not change. For instance, a Large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat. For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered a one-handed weapon. You can wield a larger light weapon as a light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands. You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand, and you cannot use this feat with a double weapon."
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Wouldn't matter if you had monkey grip or not.  You can't wield a longspear in one hand at all, it's a two-handed weapon.  Sheesh.
Oma, we had this discussion with a different troll in a different portion of the boards. If you're using 3.5, it does not allow you to use a 2H weapon in one hand. If you're playing 3.0, it does. So just stop now, because I'm not interested in another 150 post thread that consists of nothing but you insisting something wrongly, everybody else telling you you're wrong (and why), and then you posting responses that consist of nothing better than "Nuh uh, cuz this sentence fragment/partial quoted rule/reading of chicken entrails says so".

StevenO: Spinning sword, from Secrets of Sarlona, or kusari-gama from DMG.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Oma, we had this discussion with a different troll in a different portion of the boards. If you're using 3.5, it does not allow you to use a 2H weapon in one hand. If you're playing 3.0, it does. So just stop now, because I'm not interested in another 150 post thread that consists of nothing but you insisting something wrongly, everybody else telling you you're wrong (and why), and then you posting responses that consist of nothing better than "Nuh uh, cuz this sentence fragment/partial quoted rule/reading of chicken entrails says so". StevenO: Spinning sword, from Secrets of Sarlona, or kusari-gama from DMG.

Under the rules weapon fall in the next categories. Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons.

Under the rules any One-Handed weapon of a large Is a Two-Handed weapon for a medium creature.

Under the rules with monky grip you can use an One-Handed Weapon for a large as a One Handed weapon for a Medium

Now Under the rules a medium Longspear is a One-Handed Weapon for a large creature then for a medium creature with monky grip this weapon can be used as One-Handed Weapon.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, you're wrong. However, I hold out no hope of getting you to admit or even realize that fact. Therefore, I'm not going to explain why you're wrong, simply assert it - vehemently - every time you post wrong information.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Oma I'll say the same thing I said in the argument drco is referencing, page 27 of the DM's guide gives a variant referred to as weapon equivalences which basically allows for what your trying to do. Due to the fact that it is a variant, by standard core rules monkey grip does not function the way you say it does.
ok only answer this
a longspear of a medium creature is a one handed weapon of a large creature ?

read the fqa of 3.5 and you can see it as core not a variant rule

now a creature with monky grip can use a one handed weapon of a large as a one handed weapon?
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Looks like Oma's wrong again! /Colonel Sanders Read the DMG; those are the primary source rules. The fact that your wrong interpretation is specifically written as a variant means that it is not the core rules.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Looks like Oma's wrong again! /Colonel Sanders Read the DMG; those are the primary source rules. The fact that your wrong interpretation is specifically written [i]as a variant[/] means that it is not the core rules.

under the rules a medium creature can use a huge light weapon as a two handed weapon and a large one handed weapon as two handed weapon and this is core read the fqa 3.5 and under the rules a two handed weapon of a mediun creature is a one handed weapon of a large creature then a character with monky grip can use a two handed weapon of a medium creature as one handed weapon or you going to say that in your world a large creature cant use smaller weapons?


Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Actually, I'm going to say that a Large creature takes a penalty to attack using smaller weapons, which is yet another nail in the "Medium two-handed weapon is a Large one-handed weapon herp derpaderp" coffin. A medium two-handed weapon is not a Large one-handed weapon. If it was, a Large creature would not have a penalty for using an "inappropriately sized weapon". Monkey Grip allows you to use a weapon that is "ONE SIZE CATEGORY LARGER THAN YOU ARE". Therefore, Monkey Grip doesn't allow you to wield a Medium two-handed weapon in one hand. Cuz rules, dood
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Show
I bet this is where he posts a quote of Monkey Grip with an entirely different section than what I quoted highlighted.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Sorry but it allow you use a medium weapon of a large in one hand and a medium weapon for a large is a large weapon for a medium (weapon equivalence).

As example a Greadsword is like a Long Sword For a large Creature then if you buy a long Sword Large you can use it with monky grip with one hand as is well described in the feat and this weapon deal damage as a largeweapon (2d6) and can be used as greadsword instead of longsword for feats.

"You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but the amount of effort it takes you to use the weapon does not change. For instance, a Large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat. For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered a one-handed weapon. You can wield a larger light weapon as a light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands. You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand, and you cannot use this feat with a double weapon."


No.  Monkey Grip does NOT allow you to wield a two-handed weapon with one-hand.  As draco1119 mentions you should take a look at this thread over on the Char-Op board.  I pointed out the rule issue in post #4 and then your arguement came in at post #9 and after post #17 it was just like you were posting.  I didn't even need to mention names and other board members could see the comparison.

Now I'll be honest, I have a LOT easier time saying a large shortspear equals a medium character's SPEAR and a large spear equals a medium character's longspear then changing weapon sizes with other weapons.  I'll even say a small longspear equals a medium character's spear BUT you should note that when wielding a weapon sized for a smaller character is will lose it's reach property.

Now if you want to dual wield two reach weapons it seems that draco1119 may have found what you should be using.  That Kusari-gama in actually in an alternative section of the DMG (pg 145) and while it is an exotic weapon it is pretty wicked for a light-weapon.  I'd strongly suggest you check with your GM before you try introducing a character using that.
read the pag 56 and 57 fron the FQA 3.5, you cam see how the weapon category is based in the weapon size and the wielder size the table show how a huge light weapon is a two handed weapon in the handa of a medium creature and a medium two handeds weapon is a one handed weapon for a large, then under the rules if monky grip let you use weapon that a large can use as two handed, one handed and light weapons with the same category then you can use a longspear as one handed weapon the limitation of monky grip is that you dont gain the ability to use huge weaponas as a large creature.

the rule say too that the ability of monky grip dont stack whit similar abilities like the one of the half giant of the EPH
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Just read the very first line of the Monkey Grip feat.

I don't think I'm the only one who finds it amusing and puzzling that some people would think that a greatsword = large longsword = huge shortsword.  All three may deal 2d6 in damage and surprisingly weigh 8 lbs. but one costs 50gp, the next only costs 30gp, and the last cost 40gp but changes the damage type from slashing to piercing.
Looks like Oma's wrong again! /Colonel Sanders

I need to sig that or something.

Oma, seriously dood, stop trying to tell us how you want things to work, and look up the actual rules - specifically those for inappropriately sized weapons. That Huge light weapon you keep going on about? It can be wielded in 2 hands by a Medium creature, but there's still an attack penalty... WHICH THERE WOULDN'T BE IF IT WAS AN ACTUAL TWO-HANDED MEDIUM WEAPON. The reverse is also true; a Huge creature can wield a Medium two-handed weapon as a light weapon, but that Huge creature still takes a penalty on attack rolls because (all together now) IT IS AN INAPPROPRIATELY SIZED WEAPON. If a Medium greatsword was the same as a Large longsword, there wouldn't be a penalty for either creature using it, would there?
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Looks like Oma's wrong again! /Colonel Sanders I need to sig that or something. Oma, seriously dood, stop trying to tell us how you want things to work, and look up the actual rules - specifically those for inappropriately sized weapons. That Huge light weapon you keep going on about? It can be wielded in 2 hands by a Medium creature, but there's still an attack penalty... WHICH THERE WOULDN'T BE IF IT WAS AN ACTUAL TWO-HANDED MEDIUM WEAPON. The reverse is also true; a Huge creature can wield a Medium two-handed weapon as a light weapon, but that Huge creature still takes a penalty on attack rolls because (all together now) IT IS AN INAPPROPRIATELY SIZED WEAPON. If a Medium greatsword was the same as a Large longsword, there wouldn't be a penalty for either creature using it, would there?

yes i know about the penalty for it a character with monky grip can use a longspear as two handed weapon with no penlty and as one handed with -2.

and read the rules a huge Shortsword used as two handed weapon for a medium creature let -4 to attacks and cost 30 gps and weight 6 lb. and a greadsword cost 50 gps weight 8 lb as you can see for only 20 gps more you can gain a two handed weapon with no penalty

and about the feat "but the amount of effort it takes you to use the weapon does not change" talk about the penalty as normal a medium character can use large weapon with -2 and huge weapon with -4 but exist a limitation in what weapons, that is the only thing that do this feat is break the standard limit in large weapon because a standard character cant use a one handed huge weapon or a two handed large weapon but now with the feat you can use at last the two handed large weapon but not the huge one.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.


Did he just agree with me?
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
It's possible that he is agreeing.  He agreed with me once.
I've noticed a few instances where oma's written argument seems to agree to the fact presented, but his stance doesn't seem to change. It can be rather confusing.


Did he just agree with me?




ok, the rules in the FQA say that the weapon category is based in the weapon size (the creature size for was made) and the wielder size.

answer this a longspear of a medium creature is a one handed weapon of a large creature?
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
No, it is a Medium two-handed weapon that a Large creature can use with one hand. However, since it is not, in fact, a Large one-handed weapon, that Large creature takes a penalty to all attacks for using an inappropriately sized weapon. Is it really that hard to understand?
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
No, it is a Medium two-handed weapon that a Large creature can use with one hand. However, since it is not, in fact, a Large one-handed weapon, that Large creature takes a penalty to all attacks for using an inappropriately sized weapon. Is it really that hard to understand?



well i can say the same because the rule say that the weapon category is based in the size of the weapon and the size of the wielder instead of the size of the weapon only as you are saying as is well described for a large creature a longpear of a medium creature is a one handed weapon not a two handed weapon.
pleas read the FQA rules
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, read the DM's guide like I said, it has a variant that treats weapons the way you say they work. As a simple matter of logic since it is a variant you are wrong.
Oma, I don't have to read the FAQ. As I've said before, primary source overrides secondary source. The FAQ is not an update, and it has been known to be wrong. The PHB & DMG provide SPECIFIC RULES that say you're wrong. Now quit trolling.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Can someone do me a favor and find/make a picture with a shortsword, longsword, and greatsword in it.  Preferably two pictures actually, one showing them all to scale as wielding by a character of a fixed size and then a second showing them "when they would all be considered the same type of weapon."  To put it another way the second would show the +1 size shortsword, longsword, and -1 size greatsword where all may be about the same physical size but because of how they are put together you'd NEVER mistake a huge shortsword for a greatsword.
 
About the FAQ
If you have a question about the D&D game rules, you might find them within this FAQ

Exactly when is a weapon light, one-handed, and twohanded?
And when do you take the –2 penalty for using a
weapon of the wrong size? How does the system of weapon
sizes work with exotic weapons such as the bastard sword
and dwarven waraxe, which are one-handed exotic
weapons, but two-handed martial weapons? If my dwarf
wants to use a dwarven waraxe in one hand, how big a
dwarven waraxe can she wield? Suppose my dwarf wants to
fight with two weapons and use a dwarven waraxe as a light
weapon in her off hand. How big a dwarven waraxe can she
use then?
When you’re talking strictly about a weapon’s size (as
opposed to how one uses the weapon, see the previous
question), the designations light, one-handed, and two-handed
depend on the kind of weapon and on the size of the wielder for
which the weapon was made. According to page 113 in the PH,
a weapon has a size category, such as Small, Medium, or
Large, that indicates the intended wielder’s size. So, a Medium
longsword is a longsword made for a Medium wielder. When a
weapon’s size category matches the wielder’s size, Table 7–5
shows whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed for that
wielder. When the intended wielder and the actual wielder
aren’t the same size, you have to compare the two creature
sizes to determine how the actual user can wield the weapon. If
the actual user is much bigger or smaller than the intended user,
she can’t use the weapon at all. The Weapon and Wielder Size
table shows weapon sizes vs. user sizes.
For example, a frost giant (a Huge creature) collects a
greataxe, a warhammer, and a light hammer made for a dwarf
(a Medium creature). The greataxe is a two-handed weapon for
the dwarf, but the giant treats it as a light weapon. The giant
suffers a –4 penalty when using the greataxe. The giant cannot
use the warhammer (a one-handed weapon for the dwarf) or the
light hammer (a light weapon for the dwarf).
For the example character to wield a dwarven waraxe as a
light weapon, the waraxe would have to be made for a Tiny
character, and the dwarf would have a –4 attack penalty.
As noted in the previous question, you can decide to wield
a one-handed weapon in two hands and get the benefits of a
two-handed weapon in combat. To do so, the weapon has to be
designated a one-handed weapon for you. The giant in the
previous example could not get two-handed weapon damage
with the dwarf’s greataxe because that weapon is a light
weapon for the giant.
The bastard sword, lance, and dwarven waraxe are all twohanded
weapons that can be used in one hand under the correct
circumstances (the bastard sword and dwarven waraxe are
shown on Table 7–5 as one-handed exotic weapons, but they’re
really two-handed weapons). Treat all three of these weapons
as two-handed weapons when determining who can use them
and how. For example, a Small character cannot use a lance or
bastard sword made for a Medium creature, even when
mounted (in the case of a lance) or when the Small character
has the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) feat.

-Now, what say monky grip

You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but the amount of effort it takes you to use the weapon does not change. For instance, a Large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat. For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered a one-handed weapon. You can wield a larger light weapon as a light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands. You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand, and you cannot use this feat with a double weapon.

-Now under the rules a longsper of a medium creature is a one-handed weapon for a large creature and under the rules as a medium creature with monky grip you can use a one-handed weapon for a large creature as a one-handed weapon then a medium creature with monky can use a longspear of a medium creature as a one-handed weapon with a -2 penalty
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Thanks for proving my point for me. Now all I have to do is hold out hope that you're smart enough to see it. Trust me; I wont be holding my breath.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Thanks for proving my point for me. Now all I have to do is hold out hope that you're smart enough to see it. Trust me; I wont be holding my breath.

well i need say the same because the table is very clear in the part of that a Two-Handed Weapon of a Medium creature is a One-Handed weapon of a Large creature and the feat say that a one handed weapon for a large creature still is a one haded weapon for you as medium creature.

but is funny how you can say that a creature can use a large battleaxe that will have a very thick handle because was made for a large hand but not a longspear of a medium creature eventhough that the handle is made for a medium hand (to use with both) now if a medium creature have the ability to use a very large weapon like a large battleaxe that have the size of the longspear of the medium creature and is more heavy with only one hand and with -2 penalty under your logic and eventhough that is described in the rules the same creature can't use the longspear with one hand
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
I'm not saying it's logical, dood. I'm saying it's the the rules. If you want to use the VARIANT RULE in the DMG that allows what you're saying, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that; it's just not the way the default rules work, so you shouldn't tell people it is.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Oma, you like you chart.  Here's what monkey grip would do on your chart.  Reference down the left to "Large Weapon" and across to "Medium" wielder.  Replace with:

------------------------------------Medium
Large Weapon
Light------------------------------L (-2)
One-handed--------------------1-H (-2)
Two-handed--------------------2-H (-2)

This means that the medium sized wielder may indeed now use a large Two-handed weapon (longspear) with 2-H (two hands) at a -2 penalty. 

Nothing in the feat even mentions changing the amount of effort for weapons of your own size, and indeed specifically states that it doesn't change the amount of effort for weapons of a larger size. 

Oma, you like you chart.  Here's what monkey grip would do on your chart.  Reference down the left to "Large Weapon" and across to "Medium" wielder.  Replace with:

------------------------------------Medium
Large Weapon
Light------------------------------L (-2)
One-handed--------------------1-H (-2)
Two-handed--------------------2-H (-2)

This means that the medium sized wielder may indeed now use a large Two-handed weapon (longspear) with 2-H (two hands) at a -2 penalty. 

Nothing in the feat even mentions changing the amount of effort for weapons of your own size, and indeed specifically states that it doesn't change the amount of effort for weapons of a larger size. 




^This^
Does anyone think that Oma bothered to look at the thread on the other board that I linked too where we just had the "discussion" on monkey grip and using it to wield a two-handed weapon with only one hand?  I think not but then again I don't know ANYTHING.

When a person takes Monkey Grip they should NOT expect to become any better wielding weapons that are appropriately sized for them.  The feat DOES allow you to wield weapons sized for a larger creature without altering how they are wielded.  Now HOW the feat does that isn't clear (but then again "how" does a wizard cast a fireball spell for that matter) although it seems to indicate a character has some funky grip (and maybe oversized hands) enabling him to wield the bigger weapon without increasing the handedness.  The reasons you use Monkey Grip are:

1.  Wield a larger light-weapon as a light weapon.   This offers a small damage increase and potentially (I need to check on this) allows Weapon Finesse to be used.  An important thing here is you can still use that bigger light-weapon when grappled and such.

2.  Wield a larger one-handed weapon with one-hand.  Honestly, the least useful use of the feat because while you get a small increase in damage you can often do as well using other means.

3.  Wield a larger two-handed weapon with two-hands.  This is something that you couldn't even attempt to do under normal circumstances.  Even here the damage increase really doesn't off-set the attack penalty (PA for -2 with a 2H and you get +4 damage where MG a large greatsword gets you +1d6 damage) but some people just want it "because it looks cool."  I'll just point out that reach with a large reach is still determined by the WIELDER's normal reach; a medium sized creature wielding a large spiked chain still only reached 10' instead of the 20' most large sized wielders could cover.
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