Symmetry and High Level Wizards

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Gooday

Couldn't we make some more of the progression changes in numbers gradual and neater? eg for Exp -














































































































Experience RequiredDifference
1
2500500
31000500
430002000
565003500
6100003500
7150005000
82500010000
93750012500
105000012500
117000020000
1210000030000
1313000030000
1417000040000
1521000040000
1626000050000
1731000050000
1837000060000
1943000060000
2050000070000


why bother?
1-50k for 10th and 500k for 20th is easy to remember
2-there is a more even progression over the whole 20 levels

Likewise Clerics Martial Damage Bonus : goes from nothing to +5.
Why not make it more gradual : 14th-15th=+1, 16th-17th=+3, 18th-19th=+5, 20th+=+7

Fighters, Rogues and Monks currently have Martial Damage Bonus of +5/+5/+5/+5/+10/+10/+10/+15/+15/+15/+20/+20/+20
Why not make it more gradual : +3/+5/+5/+7/+10/+10/+12/+15/+15/+17/+20/+20/+20

-

With High level Wizzzzards...
the spells/level table seemed abit stingy, especially compared to Clerics with their Channel Divinity.

I was thinking something like this -
17th : 4 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1
18th : 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 1 1
19th : 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 1
20th : 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2

Key things for D&D - Where is the character from and why do they do what they do? / Recurring NPCs - allies and enemies / Plot, World and Personal Events.

Absolutely 100% no to wizards getting more spells. Low level wizards (1-5) need help. High level wizards are doing just fine. Right now, all wizards need is some change to cantrips that makes them a little more effective when used at low level without overpowering them at high level. For example, Int bonus should be added to damage with cantrips. Meanwhile, there are some overpowered spells (magic missile, trap the soul, polymorph, and meteor swarm) that need minor tweaks. 



 

Absolutely 100% no to wizards getting more spells. Low level wizards (1-5) need help. High level wizards are doing just fine. Right now, all wizards need is some change to cantrips that makes them a little more effective when used at low level without overpowering them at high level. For example, Int bonus should be added to damage with cantrips. Meanwhile, there are some overpowered spells (magic missile, trap the soul, polymorph, and meteor swarm) that need minor tweaks. 



 

+1


Absolutely 100% no to wizards getting more spells. Low level wizards (1-5) need help. High level wizards are doing just fine. Right now, all wizards need is some change to cantrips that makes them a little more effective when used at low level without overpowering them at high level. For example, Int bonus should be added to damage with cantrips. Meanwhile, there are some overpowered spells (magic missile, trap the soul, polymorph, and meteor swarm) that need minor tweaks. 



 



I agree with the point about magic missile being overpowered and just from an immersion standpoint I don't get the whole 'two magic missiles per level' thing. Wouldn't starting out with one and getting more one at a time be more logical? This is a minor point though and I don't want to get bogged down in it. If ya ask me, 1d4+1 with one to start with was fine.

What did you think of Ray of Frost going from 1d3 to 1d10? I know it was raised to 1d6 + INT mod in 4e but that seemed like the max for me. I guess it's to compensate for the fact that it has limited use whereas the fighter can swing a sword for 1d8 every single round. Idk, what do you guys think of the cantrips that were beefed up in the latest Next playtest?


What did you think of Ray of Frost going from 1d3 to 1d10? I know it was raised to 1d6 + INT mod in 4e but that seemed like the max for me. I guess it's to compensate for the fact that it has limited use whereas the fighter can swing a sword for 1d8 every single round. Idk, what do you guys think of the cantrips that were beefed up in the latest Next playtest?



I think it's so a wizard will still have some minimal contribution to make after casting four powerful spells (sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth).  Since all wizard powers except cantrips are limited per day and weapon attacks were completely nerfed something had to be done to make people even consider playing them.
We wanted to fight Asmodeus but we had no magic weapons, so we made weapons out of second level monks.

I think it's so a wizard will still have some minimal contribution to make after casting four powerful spells (sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth).  Since all wizard powers except cantrips are limited per day and weapon attacks were completely nerfed something had to be done to make people even consider playing them.



This. Exactly this.

Think back to EVERY preconception of a powerful wizard that you've got. Even realizing that D&D needs to be balanced between the classes, the wizard seems like it should stand out. And yet... why are all the actually powerful spells locked away into semi-uselessness?

I mean, the fighter gets to make his most powerful attack every round, and the wizard gets to... choose between hopefully 2 spells and gets to cast one of them. wow.

I also disagree that the cantrips need to be still more powerful. They're cantrips, the least powerful of all the spells, so inconsequential that you can cast them and they require so little energy that they can be cast again and again. But, they also not only do some damage, but also some other effect. 10' less movement and d10 damage? That puts a fighter in plate at a severe disadvantage, since he already can only move 20', which means that I can pretty much freeze him to death as I stroll away. Adding +4 more to that seems too powerful for the least spell in my arsonal. If the base damage was a standard d4, plus INT mod + some effect... well, I could get behind that.

From 17 to 20 wizards don't gain any spell slots at all.  They don't really gain much of anything really- just a few hp, a couple more preparable spells, and 1 more point of spellcasting bonus.  Maybe they don't need more high level slots, but would it really be gamebreaking if they gained a few lower level slots each level, just to distinguish between a level 18 and 20 wizard?

For comparison, at 20th level  Fighters gain a 4th combat surge. At 19th level they move up to +5 weapon attack.

The highest levels still offer meanininful progression for other classes, but it feels like the Wizard peaks at 17.
Maybe they are trying to do other things with those high-end dead levels. If Wizards got the ability to, say, make legendary items at 18th level, that would at least be something. "Sure, you're not getting more spells, but you've got the ability to channel all that unused energy into 3 legendary items that you greate over the course of each level 18-20."

Maybe being able to do instant meta-magic a few more times a day... just something. 
I like the dead levels.  In 3.5 when you wanted to prestige as a caster it was such a dilemma since you usually ended up missing out on additional spells.  With all the dead levels that's no longer an issue, especially stacked up at the end like that. 

In fact, you're probably better off starting off w/ 4 levels of fighter to get some HP / etc and then moving to caster, you've really got spell progression to spare w/ the newly balanced rules.  After you cast a spell or two there isn't a ton of difference between a caster and a bad fighter at low levels, so why not?  Particularly if you played a high elf fighter and selected a damage-dealing spell as your cantrip - at that point you're about two magic missiles different than a first level wizard in terms of missing spells, but you actually still get to participate in combat.
We wanted to fight Asmodeus but we had no magic weapons, so we made weapons out of second level monks.
honestly, i pictured the 11-20 progression of a character as your prestige progression. so with the fighter, if he chooses to go int othe fighter prestige class, he then boosts to 6d6 MDD and gains the combat surge (and yes, i am fine with adding more in), whereas if he goes a different prestige he will be stuck at only 5d6 MDD but gets the other features.

only the prestige wizards (and select prestige classes giving spell progression) would get the real high level slots. another thing to distinguish high level wizards from those who go into other fields.
just a thought
honestly, i pictured the 11-20 progression of a character as your prestige progression. so with the fighter, if he chooses to go int othe fighter prestige class, he then boosts to 6d6 MDD and gains the combat surge (and yes, i am fine with adding more in), whereas if he goes a different prestige he will be stuck at only 5d6 MDD but gets the other features.

only the prestige wizards (and select prestige classes giving spell progression) would get the real high level slots. another thing to distinguish high level wizards from those who go into other fields.
just a thought

When they were first talking about how they were going to handle 11-20, they were talking about a change in how it would be played, not just additional progression beyond level 10.  But they ended up just doing what they said they were not going to do.  I was envisioning something like Birthright where characters developed skills and powers that helped them in ruling a realm.  The problem I had with Birthright was characters at 1st level were not equiped to handle a kingdom, they were still newbies.  I think that after level 10, they would have been of enough reputation they could handle the politics of a kingdom and not seen as a ineffective in defending themselves.  I would love to have seen progressions after level 10, that took on a new flavor that would be in keeping with developing reputations, such as powers that would let them handle the problems of ruling a kingdom.  It did not have to be exactly that, but some new direction than just the same old better hacking or more effective killing spells.

Absolutely 100% no to wizards getting more spells. Low level wizards (1-5) need help. High level wizards are doing just fine. Right now, all wizards need is some change to cantrips that makes them a little more effective when used at low level without overpowering them at high level. For example, Int bonus should be added to damage with cantrips. Meanwhile, there are some overpowered spells (magic missile, trap the soul, polymorph, and meteor swarm) that need minor tweaks. 



 



Oh, yes.  That is perfectly understandable.  Because, heaven forbid, a wizard might be able to do 2, maybe 3 spells per battle before they are crapped out on their half strengthed laser beam of inadequacy.  For beings who spend their entire lives in study of the mysteries of the world, it makes perfect sense that they can only use that knowledge for 5 mins a day before they have to rest.  Meanwhile, it makes sense for a warrior or thief or monk to be able to powerbash and summersault all day long with their crap loads of combat dice and never, ever, EVER get tired one little bit.  It's SO unfair that a wizard might actually be able to, I don't know, do anything at all in or out of combat when all the other classes get are better armor, better health, better defenses with combat dice, better attack, and better damage.  Wizards should only be able to talk to people, identify ancient runes, and hold a laser pointer at enemies.  Otherwise, it might over tax them and the player, and make them so much better than every other class that can do every role without having any major negative aspects.

Good thing that wizards aren't allowed to do anything useful and are incredibly deficient in all aspect of the game.  Otherwise, they might actually be fun to play.
Heh. Rampant sarcasm aside, I agree with that sentiment. I think that the Wizards need at least 1 more spell at the highest levels and probably the regular progression at earlier ones as well, but I'm not necessarily convinced about the second part of that statement.

During play, the wizard at level 1-3 leaned heavily on cantrips to still feel like a wizard. 4-5 were a bit better, but level 6 is where they started to actually shine. It was nice to see that continue until about 12th level, but there was an immediate frustration after that because your options that are supposedly on par with the rest of the party, really aren't.

From my experience during the playtest (not hyperbole from just reading and extrapolating), I can say that the mage seems okay at the lower levels. I'd like to see them have the ability to prepare (not cast) at least an additional spell (this for the specialists), and maybe a tweek to a spell here and there, but mostly I was quite happy with the way the wizard felt to play, the options I had, and the spells I took. At the mid levels (6-12) I was generally happy with everything. Above that... they just need other things. Another spell per level certainly, but also maybe metamagic more than 1/day or the ability to create scrolls or other magic items or new spells (per some kind of guideline).

I liked that, in ye olde times, the INT score bonus was tied to outside things, like the number of languages that you might know. I'd like to see that brought back. 

Also, having the extra prepared spell would allow all mages to have the option of taking more utility spells, which is where the class really used to shine. 

My groups been playing the Playtest since day one and changing with the new rules as they come out and while I've been primarily the DM I've also been playing an NPC wizard along with the rest of the group. Not that they need one, it's a story element that I enjoy as a DM. My NPC wizard has a story that is apart of the world, but does not drive the world.


Anyways back to the discussion... I'm not going to bash peoples opinions of why they think wizards need more or less spells but I will tell you what I think of the wizards role in the game so far. He is the utility and the room clearer, but he does horrible multiple fights in a row in situations like dungeon crawls and he shines in a few clever utility uses a day. Like a good time to use alter self or make the fighter invisible, or to prevent the foolish cleric from falling to his death with feather fall.


All other classes at this point shine more than the wizard. The monk with his ki, and his maneuvers, and his standard abilities over shines everyone, followed by the clever rogue with all of his awesome skills. The cleric has "every" spell automatically known and my spell list on the wizard keeps shrinking (1 spell learned per level are you kidding me?). And if we were to compare two classes why not the cleric and the wizard? Both of their spell progressions are the same and domain spells are very similar to the "Scholarly Wizard" Tradition with extra prepared spells per day. But then the cleric still gets higher hit dice, better armor class, and let's not forget channel divinity. Oh and did I mention they "Know" every spell on their spell list every level? The damage progression scales equally as the levels go up, and the utility is distinctly unique to their roles in the party (thankfully).


I really think that while the spell system is fine, and the dmg is fine, and I'm honestly not worried about ray or frost or magic missle (cause the rogue in the party can now assassinate someone for 64 pts of dmg at lvl 5 - WTF?) But what I am worried about is a class that is defined around the arcane doesn't have some of the flavor that I miss from 2E, 3E, and 4E. Arcane dabbler should be automatic if they don't get channel divinity, and if they don't get all the extra hp or class abilities all the time then why not a decent familiar that actually gives them bonuses without burning a feat slot? (Otherwise the feat adds good RP flavor but nothing else).


Anyways I think the wizards are fine the way they are, I'm really liking the higher level spells. And I think that they have gotten a lot of love.


However 3 things I would like to change for wizards? (After the dec play packet update):
-Better spells known per level (2-3 per level as default seems fine with clerics knowing every spell on their spell list).
-More at will abilities at lvl 1 without a feat to get them
-Arcane Familiar for free at like level 6 or 8 or something and with small pluses to the wizards abilities


Other than those I'm very happy with wizards, I hope they nerf the monk a little to bring it in line with the other classes. I want bullrush, charge, and shift as normal rules and not as feats or manuveurs. And I want to see more classes like the Ranger, Bard, Barbarian, and Paladin.

Wizards need a Magic Damage Dice pool like the Martial Classes to give them variance between spells and specializations.  The Wizard's Magic Damage Dice pool should only be 1D4 for all damage spells, but then 1D6 in their Specialty School.  This means they could get some things at higher levels, other than more spells.  Having Magic Damage Dice would open up for spell specializations where spending dice could give benefits like having an "Arcane Maneuver."
The Wizard seems completly out of balance with the other classes.  So what a smarter Wirard's spell dont hit harder just more often ok thats fine, but why does being stronger make a Fighter hit more often and harder should't it just make them hit harder.  And shouldn't a smarter Wizard at the very least be able to prepare more spells than an a dumer one, a normal person who with a higher IQ can typically memorize lists better than someone with a lower IQ. Then you run into the problem with feats, the 6 of use in my group sat down and made Wizards we all ended up taking basially the same feats in basically the same order; lvl 1 Toughness, lvl 3 Improved Initiative, lvl 6 Energy Substitution, then at lvl 9 Purge Magic with one taking Maximize Spell instead.
Wizards will be underpowered in this edition, that has been written in stone since Monte left I believe. They won't be unplayable, mind you, but instead of being massively weak at lower levels and super powerful at high (1-3e), they'll be a bit weaker throughout the whole progression than other classes. Since spells are the hardest thing to balance, the designers are erring to the weak side.  Plus Mearls is a martials fan ;)
So if the argument is "this class is fine because it shines after 6th level" then why bother having level 1-5?


There have been several papers written on game theory showing that some imbalance brings its own element of fun. That being said - this construct of spell caster is inherently imbalanced even as presented on the over powerful side compared to the lack of options the other classes have to protect themselves from the list of existing spells.

So unless you boils down a "wizard" casting spells as all flavor text but not difference between the other mele/ranged classes - it will be in all incarnations imbalanced.

Which is ok.

Handicapping the wiz forces our already cunning players to be even more focused - which will result in fewer variations o playable roles.

They have no to hit bonus no bonus feats no advantage on all skills no damage reduction or way to inccrease AC to match any other class - so players will build around these weakness.


Luckily - even when a DM doubled their hit die and threw three 6lvl dragons at four 5th lvl PCs - none of us dropped.

So the over optimized wizard is not as necessary as the monsters are currently written.

Absolutely 100% no to wizards getting more spells. Low level wizards (1-5) need help. High level wizards are doing just fine. Right now, all wizards need is some change to cantrips that makes them a little more effective when used at low level without overpowering them at high level. For example, Int bonus should be added to damage with cantrips. Meanwhile, there are some overpowered spells (magic missile, trap the soul, polymorph, and meteor swarm) that need minor tweaks. 



 



Oh, yes.  That is perfectly understandable.  Because, heaven forbid, a wizard might be able to do 2, maybe 3 spells per battle before they are crapped out on their half strengthed laser beam of inadequacy.  For beings who spend their entire lives in study of the mysteries of the world, it makes perfect sense that they can only use that knowledge for 5 mins a day before they have to rest.  Meanwhile, it makes sense for a warrior or thief or monk to be able to powerbash and summersault all day long with their crap loads of combat dice and never, ever, EVER get tired one little bit.  It's SO unfair that a wizard might actually be able to, I don't know, do anything at all in or out of combat when all the other classes get are better armor, better health, better defenses with combat dice, better attack, and better damage.  Wizards should only be able to talk to people, identify ancient runes, and hold a laser pointer at enemies.  Otherwise, it might over tax them and the player, and make them so much better than every other class that can do every role without having any major negative aspects.

Good thing that wizards aren't allowed to do anything useful and are incredibly deficient in all aspect of the game.  Otherwise, they might actually be fun to play.



+1
Wizards will be underpowered in this edition, that has been written in stone since Monte left I believe. They won't be unplayable, mind you, but instead of being massively weak at lower levels and super powerful at high (1-3e), they'll be a bit weaker throughout the whole progression than other classes. Since spells are the hardest thing to balance, the designers are erring to the weak side.  Plus Mearls is a martials fan ;)



The Ivory Tower leaving was the best thing we could have hoped for.

After playing a Wizard, from level one to level three in encounters I can honestly say the low level Wizard is fine. If a player needs help with their Wizard at low levels they should reconsider playing a Wizard. A level one Wizard with Max Spell + Thunderwave = dead level one monster party. Solo a few battles, then hang back and let the rest of the party try to make themselves look good.