Skill Dice vs +3

What is your opinion on this subject?

Personally, I think the d20 roll is all the game requires for the random element of skill checks.      
We just don't need another random die.  


Agree +3 seems to be a good number. +5 in 4th ed/Saga with +5 skill focus was a bit much.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I'm not sure about the idea of introducing further randomness into skill checks, but I can see why it makes sense to try it out.  The skills improve with level according to the statistical average of the skill die.  It's more dice to roll, which has a great fun factor while actually playing.  Having not been able to organize first-hand experience with the system yet, I'll have to reserve final judgement, but it seems like an idea worth exploring.  So we are exploring it.  It's new, and new can be fun.
I'll say a static bonus is my pick. The dice sytem is interesting, but it just seems like like rolling for rolling sake. Why not a static and for skill tricks instead of spending a die, give up your static bonus. same result and less rolling.
One thing I like about Skill Dice is that as a player, I don't have to look at my character sheet to see what modifier I need to add to my check if I know that I'm trained in it and I remember my skill die. (I think it actually speeds up action resolution.)   Also, personally, I think adding +1 to 1 skill of choice every two levels is too "fiddly" for my tastes.

A Brave Knight of WTF - "Wielder of the Sword of Balance"

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

The trouble with +3 is that it becomes irrelevant as levels increase and modifiers go up. Of course, this could be solved by making skill bonuses just be +2 at level 1, +3 at level 5, +4 at level 9, etc. But like Ishurval, I haven't actually tried skill dice in practice yet.
Nicolaus character sheet
Name: Nicolaus -DESCRIPTION- Alignment: Lawful Good Race: Human Class: Fighter Gender: Male Eyes: Brown Hair: Brown Height: 6'3" Specialty: Survivor Background: Knight -DEFENSES- Armor Class: 17 Hit Points: 13 (max: 13 + lvd10 = 13) -EXPERIENCE POINS- Level: 1 XP: 0 NL: 250 -ABILITIES- Strength: 18 (4) Constitution: 16 (3) Dexterity: 14 (2) Intelligence: 10 (0) Wisdom: 12 (1) Charisma: 9 (-1) -ATTRIBUTES- Speed: 25 feet Hit Dice: 1d10+3/1d10+3 Martial Dice: 1d6/1d6 Skill Dice: 1d4/1d4 Initative: 2 Vision: Normal Size: Medium -LANGUAGES- Common -ATTACKS- Longsword: 1d8 slashing (+5 to hit, +5 to damage) Lance: 1d12 piercing (+5 to hit, +5 to damage) Hand Crossbow: 1d6 piercing (+3 to hit, +2 to damage; disadvantaged if loading and attacking same turn; range 30/120) -MANEUVERS- Protect -CLASS FEATURES- Combat Expertise (can spend as many martial dice as needed on Maneuvers, or extra damage, or reducing damage to self) Fighting Style: Protector -RACIAL TRAITS- +1 to abilities, except one which is +2. -SKILLS- Knowledge: Heraldry Knowledge: Warfare Persuade Ride -FEATS- Durable (can reroll Hit Dice) -EQUIPMENT AND TREASURE- Longsword Lance Hand Crossbow (20 bolts) Chainmail Adventurer's Kit Token of Affection Signet Ring Sealing Wax Light Warhorse (Saddle & Bridle) Grooming Kit Feed (7 days) Traveler's Clothes 61 gp 5 sp -NOTES- As a knight, can expect quarter from other members of the nobility. Disadvantaged stealth.
Does anyone here review the result to determine degree of success?    If so how do you feel about the skill die roll adding a huge variance to each success?

 For some skills it's not a problem ( you either pick the lock or you don't), but for other checks the degree of success might be important.       


Does anyone here review the result to determine degree of success?    If so how do you feel about the skill die roll adding a huge variance to each success?

 For some skills it's not a problem ( you either pick the lock or you don't), but for other checks the degree of success might be important.

This.

I love and adore the skill system. Every time you perform a task you perform it differently. This system reflects that, while adding more 'game' to the game. It also allows mastery to be expressed without turning some skill sets into auto wins.

It's awesome.

Danny

I'd wager that degree of success makes the game fun to play, gorgon.  It seems like it would for me and my group.  I usually don't throw blatant death-traps at them.  I like a balance of cinematic against gritty in my campaigns.  Encourages both RP and sound tactics, I've found.

You have to remember that adding another die creates a bell curve, no matter what slope it might have.  It's beneficial, statistically, and that works for me. 
I like the bell curve, but I just wonder how well it translates to what actually happened.

Take for example, a bard performing a song.    He plays the song like a master and has been doing so for many years.    The skill die means that after several performances a few of them are orders of magnitude worse than others, on par with novice performances.  

than again maybe that is more realistic,  we have all seen our favorite sports hero play like crap sometimes.  

 


Your chance for the middle DC's (13-21) don't change at all. It's still 5% per point. Dice just streches out the extreams, but those chances are very small.

So it really comes down to a personal preference.

*also, a 2.5% shift since 1d4->2.5 average, 1d6-3.5 average, ect.. and flat bonuses would be 2 or 3.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I like the bell curve, but I just wonder how well it translates to what actually happened.

Take for example, a bard performing a song.    He plays the song like a master and has been doing so for many years.    The skill die means that after several performances a few of them are orders of magnitude worse than others, on par with novice performances.  

than again maybe that is more realistic,  we have all seen our favorite sports hero play like crap sometimes.

And heard our favorite singers forget words, fail to hit notes, get too wasted before the show, lose a bow string, etc. ;)

Danny

But on average (due to the bell curve), the bard will perform quite well.

The skill die is much better. And it is not more random. I can prove that mathematically if you like. The statistical probability of rolling most numbers is still 5%. Yet, the skill die works much better with bounded accuracy due to the way the minimum stays the same at all levels (despite lower numbers becoming very statistically improbable). So, my vote is skill die. Along with bounded accuracy, it is one of the best things this edition has come up with so far to date. 

I loved the old system. It was glorious.

Upon first sight of the new system, I don't like it. However, to be fair, I haven't playtested it yet and I will before I truly decide if I like it or not.

Here are my reservations. They are not huge reservations by any means, but reservations the same.

Possible to roll lower numbers with dice. Yes, I understand the statistics. It doesn't change the fact that not taking stat modifiers into account, under the new system I can still roll a 2. In the old system, with a maxed skill, the absolute lowest I could roll was an 8. It makes more sense that if I am highly skilled at something, even my bad attempts aren't full of fail, but they do kind of suck. In the new system, I can roll a 7 or lower 8.75% of the time. That's pretty significant IMO. On the other hand, I have a 6.25% chance of rolling higher than a 27, my max under the old system.

No longer having tiers of skills, they all increase at once. To me, one of the fun parts of building a character was choosing how I was going to increase which skill at what level. That's gone. It also doesn't make sense that you are equally skilled in ALL of your skills ALL the time. It's just weird.

Every character has to roll an extra die for every skill, forever. Some of my players are terrible at adding. Having a static number they are used to helps them get accurate numbers, where variable additions can get tricky. I hate having to double check everyone, especially the same guy. That same guy doesn't have the option to roll less dice. It can slow down game play which makes the game less fun.

I do like the change to skill mastery for the rogue, which requires skill dice. Will this be enough to make me like the whole system better? I don't know. I also really like the skill tricks, but they don't necessarily need the new skill dice to operate. You could forego your +7 bonus, or whatever it is, under the old system.

As stated before, I will playtest them and see how my players and I respond. One thing I can say for certain is I hope the core rules come with a few different systems for skills. One system similar to the old +7 max, one similar to this new style with skill dice, and at least another option or two.
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Every character has to roll an extra die for every skill, forever. Some of my players are terrible at adding. Having a static number they are used to helps them get accurate numbers, where variable additions can get tricky. I hate having to double check everyone, especially the same guy. That same guy doesn't have the option to roll less dice. It can slow down game play which makes the game less fun.

I am easily the most vocal proponent of less math and less dice contributing on these boards, and I very often cite my observations of people struggling with their equations of resolution. I have to disagree that rolling Skill Dice places burden on players because the dice are on the table for everyone to see and discuss. There's decreased need to reference your character sheet and count abstract modifiers in your head because the equation is very simple and the dice results are clear to all.

The Skill Dice ROCK. <3

Danny

I really don't understand this skill system at all. I think its extremely different and I find that its not really clear on exactly what I'm supposed to do. How do you choose your skills and what you are good at? Can you make a check on any skill- even one you did not take on your background? If so, then what does it mean to have taken one on your background? I didn't see tumble listed on a background. Tumble is a skill I liked to put ranks in...
IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/RockNrollBabe20/Charmed-supernatural-and-charmed_zps8bd4125f.jpg)
I really don't understand this skill system at all. I think its extremely different and I find that its not really clear on exactly what I'm supposed to do. How do you choose your skills and what you are good at? Can you make a check on any skill- even one you did not take on your background? If so, then what does it mean to have taken one on your background? I didn't see tumble listed on a background. Tumble is a skill I liked to put ranks in...


Quick run down on new skill system.

1) All "Skill rolls" are now attribute checks. Officially "skill rolls" are no more.

2) Skills represent situational bonuses that apply their bonus if the attribute check falls under the area of your skill. Best comparison is specialties from any white wolf game.

3) If the attribute check DOES fall under a skills area of influence, then you also roll your skill die and add it to the result.

4) You get 4 skills from your background, whether you choose one or make your own. Rogues also get 3 more.

5) All characters can "technically" make an attribute check in any situation, though there could be DM discretion. No skill is needed to make a roll in D&DN. 

6) Tumble is not a skill, it's now a rogue skill trick. However, you can move around in a creatures threatened area now without provoking an AoO, so tumble isn't quite as needed.


Example: I have Stealth as a skill. I try and make a Dex check to sneak past some guards, and I annouce that it falls under the area of my Stealth skill. Thus I get to add my skill die to the total roll.

Any other questions?
My two copper.
Every character has to roll an extra die for every skill, forever. Some of my players are terrible at adding. Having a static number they are used to helps them get accurate numbers, where variable additions can get tricky. I hate having to double check everyone, especially the same guy. That same guy doesn't have the option to roll less dice. It can slow down game play which makes the game less fun.

I am easily the most vocal proponent of less math and less dice contributing on these boards, and I very often cite my observations of people struggling with their equations of resolution. I have to disagree that rolling Skill Dice places burden on players because the dice are on the table for everyone to see and discuss. There's decreased need to reference your character sheet and count abstract modifiers in your head because the equation is very simple and the dice results are clear to all.

The Skill Dice ROCK. <3



Perhaps. I hadn't considered that. Which of course is why I want to playtest to see how I really feel about it. Who knows, I just might love the hell out of it. I'm not one to say "This is the worst thing EVAR!!!" until actualy trying it out. Have you playtested it yet?

I will say most of the things I didn't initially like I was ok with after playtesting. Some of it I liked, some of it I was neutral on. So I would imagine at worst I would be neutral. The only thing I have disliked after playtesting was humans racial attributes. I can't stand that! The rest is neutral to awesome that I've playtested.

Even if I don't like the current skill system, I am sure I can make something like the old skill system that I would like so its no big deal even if I end up hating it. 
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If +3=1d6 and +4=1d8 and +5=1d10 and +6=1d12 then why does it matter which system is used. Put both options into the system. Two different players at the table could decide if they want the static bonus or gamble on the die roll. Let the players have the option.
Using the above example the math works out about the same if you give +1 to a skill every other level as the previous packet did. And please, no need to chart it out to prove if the math is right or wrong, because you cannot take into account different build will have a different number of trained skills.

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of any failed saving throw, including but not limited to petrification, poison, death magic, dragon breath, spells, or vorpal sword-related decapitations.

If +3=1d6 and +4=1d8 and +5=1d10 and +6=1d12 then why does it matter which system is used. Put both options into the system.



They aren't actually equivalent.  If you're talking about HP, then you can say "sure, close enough", but skills are binary.  In other words, getting 15 higher than the target DC isn't going to mathematically be 50% better than getting 10 higher than the target DC.  You can't just treat the average as being roughly equivalent to the die roll.

The thing that the skill die ameliorates is the auto-success problem: it wasn't possible to have someone be capable of performing the most impressive feats without also having any "normal" accomplishment be completely trivialized by that character.  You might prefer that system, and there is an argument that that's how things work in more "superhero-y" fantasy, but a lot of people gave feedback along the lines of "it's annoying that our rogue can do any skill of reasonable DC and no one else has even a chance to accomplish it".
If +3=1d6 and +4=1d8 and +5=1d10 and +6=1d12 then why does it matter which system is used. Put both options into the system. Two different players at the table could decide if they want the static bonus or gamble on the die roll. Let the players have the option.
Using the above example the math works out about the same if you give +1 to a skill every other level as the previous packet did. And please, no need to chart it out to prove if the math is right or wrong, because you cannot take into account different build will have a different number of trained skills.



Looks like we got a solution. Roll or get a flat bonus, your choice. Thread close. ^.^

If +3=1d6 and +4=1d8 and +5=1d10 and +6=1d12 then why does it matter which system is used. Put both options into the system.



They aren't actually equivalent.  If you're talking about HP, then you can say "sure, close enough", but skills are binary.  In other words, getting 15 higher than the target DC isn't going to mathematically be 50% better than getting 10 higher than the target DC.  You can't just treat the average as being roughly equivalent to the die roll.

The thing that the skill die ameliorates is the auto-success problem: it wasn't possible to have someone be capable of performing the most impressive feats without also having any "normal" accomplishment be completely trivialized by that character.  You might prefer that system, and there is an argument that that's how things work in more "superhero-y" fantasy, but a lot of people gave feedback along the lines of "it's annoying that our rogue can do any skill of reasonable DC and no one else has even a chance to accomplish it".




Actually, having done the math on the statistical probability of achieving any given binary result, the math is so close that he is correct. It is not exactly the same, and the die does things to the outlying numbers that I think is very beneficial for a bounded accuracy game, but there is absolutely no reason to put both systems into the game and then allow the DM to choose which one he likes best (or whether he is ok with players using both at the table as they see fit). It won't under or overpower anyone to choose any of the given options. 

Actually, have done the math on the statistical probability of achieving any given binary result, the math is so close that he is correct. It is not exactly the same, and the die does things to the outlying numbers that I think is very beneficial for a bounded accuracy game, but there is absolutely no reason to put both systems into the game and then allow the DM to choose which one he likes best (or whether he is ok with players using both at the table as they see fit). It won't under or overpower anyone to choose any of the given options. 



I think I don't understand the point you're trying to make.  I recognize that the probability for middle numbers is nearly the same either way, but the behavior around the edges is exactly the reason that +3 doesn't behave the same as +d6.  I have no issue with having both types of skill bonuses being options, but the difference in behavior is going to be very noticeable in aggregate by a typical human over a long enough period of time.
I don't know if anyone mentioned this yet, but one of the benefits to having skill dice is that it may encourage players to take more risks.  For those who like to gamble (and maybe even others who don't like to gamble), the chance to roll higher than average on the skill die, may convince them to try an action they would not if they knew their static bonus.   It may be purely psychological, but coupled with the fact that the player doesn't have to look on his character sheet to find his static bonus to the skill in question, it may lead to more heroic action attempts playing like the character more than playing like the player who has to figure out the odds before attempting an action. 

A Brave Knight of WTF - "Wielder of the Sword of Balance"

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

Actually, have done the math on the statistical probability of achieving any given binary result, the math is so close that he is correct. It is not exactly the same, and the die does things to the outlying numbers that I think is very beneficial for a bounded accuracy game, but there is absolutely no reason to put both systems into the game and then allow the DM to choose which one he likes best (or whether he is ok with players using both at the table as they see fit). It won't under or overpower anyone to choose any of the given options. 



I think I don't understand the point you're trying to make.  I recognize that the probability for middle numbers is nearly the same either way, but the behavior around the edges is exactly the reason that +3 doesn't behave the same as +d6.  I have no issue with having both types of skill bonuses being options, but the difference in behavior is going to be very noticeable in aggregate by a typical human over a long enough period of time.



But doesn't the difference benefit the players? So the players chances to succeed heroically are increased. Yea gamers! This is a game where we want the players to feel heroic through tension and I feel the dice can do that for those that want it.

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of any failed saving throw, including but not limited to petrification, poison, death magic, dragon breath, spells, or vorpal sword-related decapitations.

Um, I mean "benefit" depends on who you ask.  I prefer the skill die model, for the record, but I don't think which version you think feels "more heroic" is something you can mathematically determine.  
The skill die gives a greater swing to the results, right? That could make for a more heroic feel. DC 15, I roll a 6 on the d20 but a 9 on my skill die! How heroic!

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of any failed saving throw, including but not limited to petrification, poison, death magic, dragon breath, spells, or vorpal sword-related decapitations.

I prefer Skill Training +3 and targeted Skill Improvement up to +7 over Skill Die and auto-scaling.
I prefer Skill Training +3 and targeted Skill Improvement up to +7 over Skill Die and auto-scaling.



But would you allow another player the option if they choose?

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of any failed saving throw, including but not limited to petrification, poison, death magic, dragon breath, spells, or vorpal sword-related decapitations.

I really don't understand this skill system at all. I think its extremely different and I find that its not really clear on exactly what I'm supposed to do. How do you choose your skills and what you are good at? Can you make a check on any skill- even one you did not take on your background? If so, then what does it mean to have taken one on your background? I didn't see tumble listed on a background. Tumble is a skill I liked to put ranks in...


Quick run down on new skill system.

1) All "Skill rolls" are now attribute checks. Officially "skill rolls" are no more.

2) Skills represent situational bonuses that apply their bonus if the attribute check falls under the area of your skill. Best comparison is specialties from any white wolf game.

3) If the attribute check DOES fall under a skills area of influence, then you also roll your skill die and add it to the result.

4) You get 4 skills from your background, whether you choose one or make your own. Rogues also get 3 more.

5) All characters can "technically" make an attribute check in any situation, though there could be DM discretion. No skill is needed to make a roll in D&DN. 

6) Tumble is not a skill, it's now a rogue skill trick. However, you can move around in a creatures threatened area now without provoking an AoO, so tumble isn't quite as needed.


Example: I have Stealth as a skill. I try and make a Dex check to sneak past some guards, and I annouce that it falls under the area of my Stealth skill. Thus I get to add my skill die to the total roll.

Any other questions?


So in order to jump through the air like an acrobat (which is something I do make most of my characters do), what skill would I choose? I wouldn't want to make a rogue ALL the time...
IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/RockNrollBabe20/Charmed-supernatural-and-charmed_zps8bd4125f.jpg)
I really don't understand this skill system at all. I think its extremely different and I find that its not really clear on exactly what I'm supposed to do. How do you choose your skills and what you are good at? Can you make a check on any skill- even one you did not take on your background? If so, then what does it mean to have taken one on your background? I didn't see tumble listed on a background. Tumble is a skill I liked to put ranks in...


Quick run down on new skill system.

1) All "Skill rolls" are now attribute checks. Officially "skill rolls" are no more.

2) Skills represent situational bonuses that apply their bonus if the attribute check falls under the area of your skill. Best comparison is specialties from any white wolf game.

3) If the attribute check DOES fall under a skills area of influence, then you also roll your skill die and add it to the result.

4) You get 4 skills from your background, whether you choose one or make your own. Rogues also get 3 more.

5) All characters can "technically" make an attribute check in any situation, though there could be DM discretion. No skill is needed to make a roll in D&DN. 

6) Tumble is not a skill, it's now a rogue skill trick. However, you can move around in a creatures threatened area now without provoking an AoO, so tumble isn't quite as needed.


Example: I have Stealth as a skill. I try and make a Dex check to sneak past some guards, and I annouce that it falls under the area of my Stealth skill. Thus I get to add my skill die to the total roll.

Any other questions?


So in order to jump through the air like an acrobat (which is something I do make most of my characters do), what skill would I choose? I wouldn't want to make a rogue ALL the time...





So just looked through the 12/17/12 packet and tumble is a skill (in addition to a skill trick). It goes with the jester background. If you don't like the jester background you could always work with your DM to make one you felt was appropriate.
Here's what I got as a breakdown for skills in a table format.  I broke it down to normal skill usage and skill mastery usage.  Normal is normal, and SM is skill mastery.



















































































































































































































































































































DC>>>>>10 (Easy)15 (Moderate)20 (Hard)25 (Very Hard)30 (Formidable)
LevelAttributeNormalSMNormalSMNormalSMNormalSMNormalSM
1487.50%90.63%62.50%65.63%37.50%40.63%7.50%10.63%0.00%0.00%
2491.67%95.83%67.50%72.36%42.50%47.36%12.50%17.36%0.00%0.00%
3491.67%95.83%67.50%72.36%42.50%47.36%12.50%17.36%0.00%0.00%
4491.67%95.83%67.50%72.36%42.50%47.36%12.50%17.36%0.00%0.00%
5491.67%95.83%67.50%72.36%42.50%47.36%12.50%17.36%0.00%0.00%
6491.67%95.83%67.50%72.36%42.50%47.36%12.50%17.36%0.00%0.00%
7491.67%95.83%67.50%72.36%42.50%47.36%12.50%17.36%0.00%0.00%
8596.25%98.91%77.50%84.06%52.50%59.06%27.50%34.06%3.75%6.41%
9596.25%98.91%77.50%84.06%52.50%59.06%27.50%34.06%3.75%6.41%
10596.25%98.91%77.50%84.06%52.50%59.06%27.50%34.06%3.75%6.41%
11596.25%98.91%77.50%84.06%52.50%59.06%27.50%34.06%3.75%6.41%
12597.00%99.30%82.00%89.80%57.50%65.75%32.50%40.75%7.50%12.25%
13597.00%99.30%82.00%89.80%57.50%65.75%32.50%40.75%7.50%12.25%
14597.00%99.30%82.00%89.80%57.50%65.75%32.50%40.75%7.50%12.25%
15597.00%99.30%82.00%89.80%57.50%65.75%32.50%40.75%7.50%12.25%
16597.00%99.30%82.00%89.80%57.50%65.75%32.50%40.75%7.50%12.25%
17597.50%99.51%85.00%92.92%62.50%72.43%37.50%47.43%11.67%18.47%
18597.50%99.51%85.00%92.92%62.50%72.43%37.50%47.43%11.67%18.47%
19597.50%99.51%85.00%92.92%62.50%72.43%37.50%47.43%11.67%18.47%
20597.50%99.51%85.00%92.92%62.50%72.43%37.50%47.43%11.67%18.47%
I prefer Skill Training +3 and targeted Skill Improvement up to +7 over Skill Die and auto-scaling.



But would you allow another player the option if they choose?


I think you should either use one or the other, much like alternate resting mechanics, otherwise the PC that use SKill Die has a serious advantage.
I prefer Skill Training +3 and targeted Skill Improvement up to +7 over Skill Die and auto-scaling.



But would you allow another player the option if they choose?


I think you should either use one or the other, much like alternate resting mechanics, otherwise the PC that use SKill Die has a serious advantage.



I don't know about that. The binary chance of success tends to be the same no matter what method you use. All that changes is what happens with the outlying numbers. But, someone using skill dice will gain an equal amount of benefit and harm from what happens with those outlying numbers...
Except Skill Die would get all Skills Improved equally, where Skill Bonus would not.
That's a good point.  It seems like you'd have to have two orthogonal considerations:

- Do all skills increase as you level or do you choose?  This would be something you'd want to keep the same for everyone at your table.
- Do you use a flat bonus or dice?  This could vary from player to player at your table without a significant balance issue. 

That doesn't seem too hard to deal with though; just have someone's skill die increase rather than their flat bonus increasing if you want to keep track of individual skills.  You'd be able to represent a bonus of 3-7 with d4, d6, d8, d10, d12.

Actually, that sounds pretty cool now that I'm thinking about it.  I definitely liked the skill die, but I thought it was odd that everyone only had a binary "skilled" or "unskilled" proficiency level at things. 
As a player, I currently find it more fun (handling the die) and suspenseful (because of two randoms) to roll a skill die along with my d20 than adding a flat bonus. As DM, I like a standard +5 for monster traits because it makes things quicker to run and easier to see the parameters. This is an interesting contrast.
Skill Training: +2 at 1st level, +3 at 6th level, +4 at 11th level, +5 at 16th level.



I could see allowing rogues to use the new skill system, and non-rogues to use the old but I think that would get a little confusing to some. It's an interesting concept.

I'm not saying everyone should do this. I do think I will try it to see how it works out, though. 
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I really don't understand this skill system at all. I think its extremely different and I find that its not really clear on exactly what I'm supposed to do. How do you choose your skills and what you are good at? Can you make a check on any skill- even one you did not take on your background? If so, then what does it mean to have taken one on your background? I didn't see tumble listed on a background. Tumble is a skill I liked to put ranks in...


Quick run down on new skill system.

1) All "Skill rolls" are now attribute checks. Officially "skill rolls" are no more.

2) Skills represent situational bonuses that apply their bonus if the attribute check falls under the area of your skill. Best comparison is specialties from any white wolf game.

3) If the attribute check DOES fall under a skills area of influence, then you also roll your skill die and add it to the result.

4) You get 4 skills from your background, whether you choose one or make your own. Rogues also get 3 more.

5) All characters can "technically" make an attribute check in any situation, though there could be DM discretion. No skill is needed to make a roll in D&DN. 

6) Tumble is not a skill, it's now a rogue skill trick. However, you can move around in a creatures threatened area now without provoking an AoO, so tumble isn't quite as needed.


Example: I have Stealth as a skill. I try and make a Dex check to sneak past some guards, and I annouce that it falls under the area of my Stealth skill. Thus I get to add my skill die to the total roll.

Any other questions?


So in order to jump through the air like an acrobat (which is something I do make most of my characters do), what skill would I choose? I wouldn't want to make a rogue ALL the time...



So just looked through the 12/17/12 packet and tumble is a skill (in addition to a skill trick). It goes with the jester background. If you don't like the jester background you could always work with your DM to make one you felt was appropriate.


Omg I'm not sure how I missed that. Personally, I'd prefer for a list of traits and bonus abilities to mix and match instead of having to make your own ability up to go a long with. It just makes things easier. I saw tumble on the skill list but I didn't notice it on Jester, haha. Thanks. 
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