The perils of being a Commander player...

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Now that the semester is over, I find that I'm finally scratching the deckbuilding itch.  If I see current ideas to fruition, I'll have doubled my number of decks from five to ten.  But I've run into a problem:  with my most recent deck (Zedruu), I have run out of Sol Rings, Reflecting Pools, Command Towers and other "go-to's."  Of course, decks can function without them, as I'm rediscovering old favorites like Exotic Orchard and Mind Stone.  Thank goodness for M13 or I'd have run out of Reliquary Towers a while ago.  I'm almost broke at the moment, so I don't have any cash to buy singles.  Does anyone else wrestle with resource management? 

Similar to the above situation, does anyone find that they are constantly moving cards in and out of their decks for use in other formats?  I'm finding that my Standard decks (normally the land) are always borrowing from my Commander decks.  It's kind of tough to keep track of.  Once, I started playing at FNM and realized halfway through that I didn't have a 60-card deck, as I failed to add some lands from my Commander decks.

Also, I just realized that the vast majority of my commanders are female.  If I get them all done, you can add Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius, Selenia, Dark Angel and Kaalia of the Vast to the list in my sig.  The only males are Niv and Tressy and the latter is undead.  Grimgrin is an amalgam of dead people, so he's probably partially female.  I feel I need a human male in there somewhere.  Jund is the only shard I haven't built for, so maybe Kresh should be built soon.

*The preceding has been a ramble from RxPhantom.

University of Charleston School of Pharmacy, Class of 2016

My Peasant Cube: A Cube for the Commoners

This is why I only have 2 Commander decks. I recently got second copies of the cards I shared between them because it was getting really annoying.
I just use Magic Set Editor to make proxies. Print them out on sticker paper (available at most office supply stores), trim, slap on an excess basic land. BAM!

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I just use Magic Set Editor to make proxies. Print them out on sticker paper (available at most office supply stores), trim, slap on an excess basic land. BAM!



I just can't do that.  I don't know why I have such a personal problem with it, but I hate the idea of using proxies.  I actually don't mind if my opponents do, especially if they're as "pro" looking as MSE stuff, but I just can't bring myself to do it.  I do like using MSE for tokens that they don't make.  I actually made a token version of Drogskol Captain for a current standard deck, as Cackling Counterpart is a big part of the strategy.

My lack of great mana-fixing lands is ultimately the reason that I'm building a few more two-color decks.  I don't feel that the Towers are of too much importance with only two colors.

University of Charleston School of Pharmacy, Class of 2016

My Peasant Cube: A Cube for the Commoners

I don't mind proxies, and would even encourage people to use them but don't and never will myself. I prefer the challenge of building and collecting with them out of the picture.

Buy I understand the itch. I just have a harder time scratching. With 19 complete decks (of varying quality) its difficult to get excited about a new potential commander.

I just picked up a teysa for a dollar (?! I thought she'd have been more just from edh demand) and look forward to the building but not the duplicating of cards already in other decks.

3DH4LIF3

I don't mind proxies, and would even encourage people to use them but don't and never will myself. I prefer the challenge of building and collecting with them out of the picture. Buy I understand the itch. I just have a harder time scratching. With 19 complete decks (of varying quality) its difficult to get excited about a new potential commander. I just picked up a teysa for a dollar (?! I thought she'd have been more just from edh demand) and look forward to the building but not the duplicating of cards already in other decks.


I think the restricting factor at the moment is my budget.  I think it's making me a better deckbuilder though.  It's causing me to reevaluate my other decks and "spread the wealth," so to speak.  After all, I'm not going to be able to do a lot of building/tweaking until May, when the next semester ends.  Ten decks should provide enough variety to keep my games interesting!  I'm trying to build these new decks with cards that I already own.  It's tough because previous decks are already using my "staples."

After these new ones are set and sleeved, I'll probably just spend time improving them rather than making more new ones.  For a while, anyway.

University of Charleston School of Pharmacy, Class of 2016

My Peasant Cube: A Cube for the Commoners



Does anyone else wrestle with resource management? 

Similar to the above situation, does anyone find that they are constantly moving cards in and out of their decks for use in other formats? 




No. I've dismantled all my 60 card decks for EDH. 

Proxy proxy proxy. If you own one of a card and feel that's enough for you, then don't put yourself in a position to buy cards just because. If you only have 1 Griselbrand in a deck for example, don't buy another because you want to put in into something else. Proxy it, and put the money towards something you actually need. Trade for another griselbrand or buy it when you fill out the other stuff you need more.

here is the site I use:

magiccards.info/


seach for your card, then underneath the pic after the search, you'll see an option to print proxies 1,2,3 etc...really cool site.   
 
If you can't proxy then... I'm sorry. We don't have much of a solution for it.


While there are folks who complain, almost no one seems to have a problem with proxies of cards folks own in casual multiplayer environment. Even the folks like you with a mental inability to do it are all gung ho about other people doing it. It especially comes to the front when decks start getting loaned out. I'm assuming you loan decks to other people because it is invariably the role of anyone who makes enough decks for staples shortage to be a problem, so maybe I'm just assuming incorrectly, but... yeah, the more you're a deckbuilder for the community the more any given deck seems to get loathed less (although hated out just as much if need be) and the more it's understood that proxies are gonna happen. We just insist on high quality printouts that aren't thick enough to be any different.


And then there's my beer and pretzels group. Full proxie is the accepted norm, proxie manabases are universal and life goes on. I proxie cards I own and just take a similacrum deck because we're getting sh**hammered the entire night and playing whereever we happen to be hanging out. 100 filler cards, 10 pages of printouts, another chunk of sleeves and some time is all I'm out if spills happen, I wind up walking home in a downpour, things wander off, *I* wander off, etc.. So, yeah, it's all proxied.

For me it lets the decks be disposable. Since I'm the primary mechanic of that social group and there's a lot of people willing to dabble in magic who don't want the mental overhead of being a player, it's great. For the other folks their collections just aren't "there" and their deckbuilding skills have a ton of blocks on them. Full proxie gets them to start thinking about things, forces them to search and to grow.

Granted, it'd never work at a shop, many people hate that activity, etc., but for sittuations where EDH is being used in the same capacity as Munchkin, Illumanti!, Risk, Diplomacy (ok, maybe not diplomacy), Settlers, *insert Sirlin game here*, and so forth I wouldn't do it any other way. For my 'real' magic needs I've got Friday night.



See, I'm at the other extreme. But... if you can't bear to switch things around and can't bear to proxie cards you own that are right over there, a foot to the left, eep.
76783093 wrote:
Luckily, we have stop-having-fun guys to remind us that having anything more than 60 cards in your deck is tantamount to being a rapist and anyone considering it should be strung up by their ****.
I just can't do it.  It feels cheap to me, like I'm not really playing Magic.  I don't begrudge others too much for doing it, as long as it's not excessive.  I especially don't mind others proxying when they're testing a card before they buy it or trade for it. 

@Cyklown:  It makes sense for your kind of group, but I've honestly never played Magic with a crowd of "non-players," so to speak.  I actually loan decks very infrequently, as most people I play with already have a few decks, but I'm not opposed.  I also wasn't complaining more than I was...ruminating.  Like I said previously, I think it's making me a better deckbuilder.

University of Charleston School of Pharmacy, Class of 2016

My Peasant Cube: A Cube for the Commoners

I run into this problem alot, as my Magic funds are remarkably low.  For starters, I trade away any high dollar cards I get that aren't good for commander (thragtusk will get you several good EDH cards).  And I use lesser cards, til I can get the better cards I need.  Cammander is supposed to be about fun, so as long as it works, it doesn't need to be optimized.  Also, you might take a look at the decks you already have, and see if any of the staple cards are really necessary.  Sol Ring is a good example.  Any deck can use it, and it's good, but not all decks need them.  If an existing deck can be good without it, but one you're building needs it, make the change.  I think people get so caught up in the idea of "staples" that they forget that not all decks need those cards. 
I have no problem moving cards from 1 deck to anther, I only own 1 copy of each card since I only play edh these days. I only bring 2 decks with me when i go out to play and move the desired cards to the deck I'm playing. 

I'm also not a fan of proxying cards even though I don't care if others do it  

                                                                                                                                                                                        <----- Loser.

If I only have one copy of a card I typically make proxies for the deck I play less and I'll just dig out the real card if it comes up in the game.  It's easier than resleeving every card every time, and sometimes I don't have to actually swap anything at all.
There is somethign my freind does that most peopel don't seem to have an issue with.  basically he plays with proxies in all his decks for cards he is runnign short on ie sol ring.   But he doesn't just play wth proxies he has the cards sleeved in a differnt color sleeve than all his decks sitting there and as soon as he plays his proxy he put the real card in in place for while its in play. But i get the hating of proxies.  
I own 1 of each dual land, 1 of each fetchland, force of will, mana crypt, and a mana drain and I just proxy them through out my 8 EDH decks. I never loan decks it's just that each deck has a different way to win and so when I pull out another deck it's like playing a whole different game. Not all of my decks use all of those cards but all of my decks share some of them. Most of my decks have anywhere from 10 to 30 proxies and I own most of those proxies I just feel it would be anoying if an opponent had to sit and wait for me to find all the cards shared so that I can switch them and then get started. One of my decks only has 2 proxies in it and it's because I actually don't own them yet(working on that though). Good luck to you working that out though.
We encourage proxies where I live. Especially in Dual land situations. Only a handful of folks actually have them. I having 3 commander decks and being somewhat restricted in what I have on budget for EDH since I'm not in the realm of playing Standard and Modern, means alot of times cards get moved from one deck to another just for a game or 2.
I think I'd just rather work with what I've got than proxy.  It's just a personal preference I suppose, but I've never had a deck that would be made or broken by duals.  Proxying for testing purposes is wholly acceptable to me, and I do it from time to time.  I suppose that once I sleeve a deck, I like that they're all complete units, and I don't need to swap anything out or proxy.  I can switch decks between games without worrying about all the cards being in the deck.  I guess it's a complex!

University of Charleston School of Pharmacy, Class of 2016

My Peasant Cube: A Cube for the Commoners

The only time I ever proxy is when I am playing a Vintage tournament that allows proxies.  I want to be able to make a good deck with out proxies, so I usually only have 1 or 2 good decks for a format, but I still have other, fun, decks for outside of tournaments.  As far as commander is concerned, I just buy weaker versions of cards, like Akoum Refuge instead of Badlands, when I run out of the good versions.
ME ANGRY!!! SO ME USE RED!!! When posting decklists or suggestions please link to the card. Do this with [c.]card name here[/c.] for single cards or [deck.] insert deck contents here [/deck.] for decks. don't include the periods in the brackets though.
I know that decks aren't necessarily made or broken based on 1 dual land. But the few of us having access to it made mana less of an issue for us than it was with the newer players. So we evened that out a bit. That way at least they can play their spells.
I know that decks aren't necessarily made or broken based on 1 dual land. But the few of us having access to it made mana less of an issue for us than it was with the newer players. So we evened that out a bit. That way at least they can play their spells.


I don't think everyone needs ABUR duals to cast their spells.  I only own a single ABUR dual and I do fine.  One can easily find budget options that aren't terrible:  M10 duals (cheap and awesome), Vivid lands, Scars duals, Refuges, Pain lands, shock lands and even the regular old Salt Marsh style lands.  Of course, they're not as efficient as the originals, but this tends to be a slow format anyway.  There are also several decently priced lands that can produce any color, but I especially like Exotic Orchard.  They're at about $1.50 right now and very rarely have they not served as a virtual Command Tower for me.



University of Charleston School of Pharmacy, Class of 2016

My Peasant Cube: A Cube for the Commoners

I think I'd just rather work with what I've got than proxy.  It's just a personal preference I suppose, but I've never had a deck that would be made or broken by duals.  Proxying for testing purposes is wholly acceptable to me, and I do it from time to time.  I suppose that once I sleeve a deck, I like that they're all complete units, and I don't need to swap anything out or proxy.  I can switch decks between games without worrying about all the cards being in the deck.  I guess it's a complex!




I actually respect that first line very much, but...


Where I play EDH, not everyone has a budget to blow on magic (I personally probably spend a lot more than I should on the game for the amount I play, and I'm fortunate enough to have a pool of cards a lot of people would love to have). To keep things competitive (and casual), the tourney manager (a friend of mine also) allowed players to proxy any amount of lands (including duals), and about 20 cards per deck, with a $100 value (no proxy mishra's workshop for example).

This rule allows people to try the format without blowing a wad on cards they may rarely use. I had the same thought process you do "the proxies make things easy", "people need to use what they have and adapt", "it's not fair to me, spending money, etc". It wasn't the totally right way to look at it.


You know what though? If I have a card in my hand and it's a proxy, if I look at the card and know in the back of my mind that I own at least one of them? That's good enough for me, although I used to think like you "I need the card here or I just feel like I'm having that bad dream where I went to work naked". When you realize the amount of money you'll save by not buy 3 copies of a card for 3 separate decks, you'll thank us.
I know that decks aren't necessarily made or broken based on 1 dual land. But the few of us having access to it made mana less of an issue for us than it was with the newer players. So we evened that out a bit. That way at least they can play their spells.


I don't think everyone needs ABUR duals to cast their spells.  I only own a single ABUR dual and I do fine.  One can easily find budget options that aren't terrible:  M10 duals (cheap and awesome), Vivid lands, Scars duals, Refuges, Pain lands, shock lands and even the regular old Salt Marsh style lands.  Of course, they're not as efficient as the originals, but this tends to be a slow format anyway.  There are also several decently priced lands that can produce any color, but I especially like Exotic Orchard.  They're at about $1.50 right now and very rarely have they not served as a virtual Command Tower for me.





Look at the Damia list in my sig and then say that it's a slow format. It can be very fast and lands that EtBT slow you way down. 3 color decks should be playing 9 fetchland and 3 ABUR Duals and 3 Shocks. This is so that you can play Crucible of Worlds to great efficiency. You know, thinning the deck, making consistent land drops ect. Fast and efficient mana makes a really good deck. Try it out sometime and tell me if you don't see any difference.
I know that decks aren't necessarily made or broken based on 1 dual land. But the few of us having access to it made mana less of an issue for us than it was with the newer players. So we evened that out a bit. That way at least they can play their spells.


I don't think everyone needs ABUR duals to cast their spells.  I only own a single ABUR dual and I do fine.  One can easily find budget options that aren't terrible:  M10 duals (cheap and awesome), Vivid lands, Scars duals, Refuges, Pain lands, shock lands and even the regular old Salt Marsh style lands.  Of course, they're not as efficient as the originals, but this tends to be a slow format anyway.  There are also several decently priced lands that can produce any color, but I especially like Exotic Orchard.  They're at about $1.50 right now and very rarely have they not served as a virtual Command Tower for me.


Look at the Damia list in my sig and then say that it's a slow format. It can be very fast and lands that EtBT slow you way down. 3 color decks should be playing 9 fetchland and 3 ABUR Duals and 3 Shocks. This is so that you can play Crucible of Worlds to great efficiency. You know, thinning the deck, making consistent land drops ect. Fast and efficient mana makes a really good deck. Try it out sometime and tell me if you don't see any difference.


It's a slow format.  Sorry, but it is.  I also didn't realize that your Damia deck is the standard to which all others are compared.  Seriously, get over yourself.  I haven't come to expect that kind of condescension from you.  Now I know.

University of Charleston School of Pharmacy, Class of 2016

My Peasant Cube: A Cube for the Commoners

It tends to be slower. Every meta has its speed. Turn 3/4 wins are possible, but I don't think most find those fun. Our decks are capable of turn 6 wins pretty easily is left unchecked... and that about the speed we feel the big business should start happening.

Calling EDH slow isn't to exclude speedy decks from possibility, but acknowledges that the most players enjoy longer social games.

3DH4LIF3

EDH is definitely a typically slower format than any 60-card. You can knock out wins quick (In my Kozilek, Butcher of Truth deck, I've God-handed into a turn 3 Kozilek), and it's important to consider speed, tempo, and your curve, but it's ludicrous to say it's not slower.


Rules Adviser, casual tournament organizer, lover of EDH and MtG evangelist.
We encourage proxies where I live. Especially in Dual land situations. Only a handful of folks actually have them. I having 3 commander decks and being somewhat restricted in what I have on budget for EDH since I'm not in the realm of playing Standard and Modern, means alot of times cards get moved from one deck to another just for a game or 2.





God yes. I'd rather play against someone with a proxied manabase because now the deck does what they want/it's supposed to.



EDH is slower, but consistantly being able to hit double costs in two different areas from t4 onward is really nice. *someone* has to be able to wrath or damnation t4. 
76783093 wrote:
Luckily, we have stop-having-fun guys to remind us that having anything more than 60 cards in your deck is tantamount to being a rapist and anyone considering it should be strung up by their ****.
It tends to be slower. Every meta has its speed. Turn 3/4 wins are possible, but I don't think most find those fun. Our decks are capable of turn 6 wins pretty easily is left unchecked... and that about the speed we feel the big business should start happening. Calling EDH slow isn't to exclude speedy decks from possibility, but acknowledges that the most players enjoy longer social games.


Fair enough, but I resent being presented with a rigid set of "requirements" for every EDH deck like some sort of binding edict.  

University of Charleston School of Pharmacy, Class of 2016

My Peasant Cube: A Cube for the Commoners

Binding edict sounds like it should be a card.

3DH4LIF3

Binding edict sounds like it should be a card.


I actually thought about that when I typed it.

University of Charleston School of Pharmacy, Class of 2016

My Peasant Cube: A Cube for the Commoners

I have the same problem I currently have 4 EDH decks built and am in the process of building a 5th.

They are:

Wort, The Raidmother
Niv-Mizzet, The Firemind
Kresh the Bloodbraided
Lovisa Coldeyes

All of which have red in them - I've been playing red decks in magic since I started playing so I figured I should continue that tradition with my commander decks. I personally dislike proxies which makes it a bit awkward having to pull cards out (Especially since 2 of the decks run stuff like Taigas and wooded foothills which I need for my legacy deck). Some of the decks are less optimally built then they should be in particular when I starting building the last of the decks (lovisa) I was beginnining to run out of cards I consider staples but it was a fun challenge dug up some old cards I'd never consider playing otherwise (Recently fallen in love with starstorm because of it). Most of my decks tend to be more geared towards the fun side then competitive, which is why I get to do sill stuff with Food chain and Brightstone ritual in my wort deck

As far as playing against proxies I'm happy for people to proxy stuff but I don't like it when like a quarter of their deck is proxied.
I know that decks aren't necessarily made or broken based on 1 dual land. But the few of us having access to it made mana less of an issue for us than it was with the newer players. So we evened that out a bit. That way at least they can play their spells.


I don't think everyone needs ABUR duals to cast their spells.  I only own a single ABUR dual and I do fine.  One can easily find budget options that aren't terrible:  M10 duals (cheap and awesome), Vivid lands, Scars duals, Refuges, Pain lands, shock lands and even the regular old Salt Marsh style lands.  Of course, they're not as efficient as the originals, but this tends to be a slow format anyway.  There are also several decently priced lands that can produce any color, but I especially like Exotic Orchard.  They're at about $1.50 right now and very rarely have they not served as a virtual Command Tower for me.


Look at the Damia list in my sig and then say that it's a slow format. It can be very fast and lands that EtBT slow you way down. 3 color decks should be playing 9 fetchland and 3 ABUR Duals and 3 Shocks. This is so that you can play Crucible of Worlds to great efficiency. You know, thinning the deck, making consistent land drops ect. Fast and efficient mana makes a really good deck. Try it out sometime and tell me if you don't see any difference.


It's a slow format.  Sorry, but it is.  I also didn't realize that your Damia deck is the standard to which all others are compared.  Seriously, get over yourself.  I haven't come to expect that kind of condescension from you.  Now I know.




I sincerely apologize for sounding condescending. I am used to a very fast and competitive playgroup. I realize now that that is not the norm. I've seen the error of my ways but unfortunately too late. I didn't mean to upset anyone.
 
It tends to be slower. Every meta has its speed. Turn 3/4 wins are possible, but I don't think most find those fun. Our decks are capable of turn 6 wins pretty easily is left unchecked... and that about the speed we feel the big business should start happening. Calling EDH slow isn't to exclude speedy decks from possibility, but acknowledges that the most players enjoy longer social games.


Fair enough, but I resent being presented with a rigid set of "requirements" for every EDH deck like some sort of binding edict.  




I didn't mean for it to sound like that in my previous posts. I was attempting to point out that decks run much better and faster with a fetch/dual/shock land mana base. There is no denying that fact. EtBT lands keep you behind your curve and slow you way down if you have 2 or 3 in a row. Painlands really start to add up after a while. The Core and Innistrad duals are fantastic but I had to cut them for my fetches cause I hate having Crucible of Worlds without abusing it. I've even strayed away from the Ravnica bouncelands cause I've had a few games where I would've rather had a basic land (and that's saying something). I'm sorry to have offended you in such a way.
((quoted words))
I sincerely apologize for sounding condescending. I am used to a very fast and competitive playgroup. I realize now that that is not the norm. I've seen the error of my ways but unfortunately too late. I didn't mean to upset anyone.

((quoted words))

I didn't mean for it to sound like that in my previous posts. ..... I'm sorry to have offended you in such a way.



I like this; many folks would head on like a mad bull saying that they were right and that the world is wrong. It is refreshing to see humility on any internet forum, and so I say kudos to you for that. I didn't take your posts wrongly, even, I figure your meta is no more the same as everyone else's than mine is and you weren't claiming such. I just like your civility, and thank you for that, no matter your views.

You, sir, are a decent poster.
If I'm right, I'm right. If I'm wrong, I still believe I'm right. Think of it as religion. dubito ergo sum.
Nope. No proxies here. If I don't have a card, then I don't have it in my decks. I pretty much have the same mindset as you RX. It makes you a better player I believe and my decks are more unique. Other players have their philosophies, and I totally respect that.
I know that decks aren't necessarily made or broken based on 1 dual land. But the few of us having access to it made mana less of an issue for us than it was with the newer players. So we evened that out a bit. That way at least they can play their spells.


I don't think everyone needs ABUR duals to cast their spells.  I only own a single ABUR dual and I do fine.  One can easily find budget options that aren't terrible:  M10 duals (cheap and awesome), Vivid lands, Scars duals, Refuges, Pain lands, shock lands and even the regular old Salt Marsh style lands.  Of course, they're not as efficient as the originals, but this tends to be a slow format anyway.  There are also several decently priced lands that can produce any color, but I especially like Exotic Orchard.  They're at about $1.50 right now and very rarely have they not served as a virtual Command Tower for me.


Look at the Damia list in my sig and then say that it's a slow format. It can be very fast and lands that EtBT slow you way down. 3 color decks should be playing 9 fetchland and 3 ABUR Duals and 3 Shocks. This is so that you can play Crucible of Worlds to great efficiency. You know, thinning the deck, making consistent land drops ect. Fast and efficient mana makes a really good deck. Try it out sometime and tell me if you don't see any difference.


It's a slow format.  Sorry, but it is.  I also didn't realize that your Damia deck is the standard to which all others are compared.  Seriously, get over yourself.  I haven't come to expect that kind of condescension from you.  Now I know.




I sincerely apologize for sounding condescending. I am used to a very fast and competitive playgroup. I realize now that that is not the norm. I've seen the error of my ways but unfortunately too late. I didn't mean to upset anyone.
 
It tends to be slower. Every meta has its speed. Turn 3/4 wins are possible, but I don't think most find those fun. Our decks are capable of turn 6 wins pretty easily is left unchecked... and that about the speed we feel the big business should start happening. Calling EDH slow isn't to exclude speedy decks from possibility, but acknowledges that the most players enjoy longer social games.


Fair enough, but I resent being presented with a rigid set of "requirements" for every EDH deck like some sort of binding edict.  




I didn't mean for it to sound like that in my previous posts. I was attempting to point out that decks run much better and faster with a fetch/dual/shock land mana base. There is no denying that fact. EtBT lands keep you behind your curve and slow you way down if you have 2 or 3 in a row. Painlands really start to add up after a while. The Core and Innistrad duals are fantastic but I had to cut them for my fetches cause I hate having Crucible of Worlds without abusing it. I've even strayed away from the Ravnica bouncelands cause I've had a few games where I would've rather had a basic land (and that's saying something). I'm sorry to have offended you in such a way.


I have a great deal of respect for this post, sir.  I didn't need to get self-righteous on you either, and for that I'm sorry.  You are, of course, correct.  ABUR duals and fetches would make any deck more efficient.  I would run them if I owned them, or had the disposable income to purchase them.  Maybe in 2016 or so when I'm out of school and (hopefully) making good money.  I really wish 13-year old me recognized the value of ABUR duals and picked some up when they were cheap.  Of course, I was too new to the game and I was fixated on fatties a la Scaled Wurm.

 

University of Charleston School of Pharmacy, Class of 2016

My Peasant Cube: A Cube for the Commoners

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