Well, I ruined our game

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We have been in a campaign that has lasted about 2 years. We are at level 26 now and we have a team A and a Team B. My team A guy is My lazy Shaman Warlord who never attacks, or rarely at least. I've posted the build before. Anyhow my secondary guy is the one with the Dread of Sakkor that everyone is all mad at me about because the Cb doesn't say you have to shadow jaunt to use it.  Regardless here is how I ruined the game. My shaman grants ridiculous defense bonuses every round and big bnuses to attacks and grants lots of attacks. This was fine until 2 people at the table (who have only been with us for maybe 6 months now) asked me if I could look at their characters and see how I could optimize them more. I did so and the next week did not go well. The DM had a fighting this continent destroyer creature whose name starts with a "T" I think. The guy couldn't hit us and he wa slevel 30 we are 26. He rolled a 17 and was way off of hitting us. When the Dm brought in 10 Efreets that were 2 levels higher than us and they couldn't hit without a 20 and then it woudn't even be a crit he gave up and packed up his stuff. It's my brother so I can talk to him, but the fact is that he doesn't mind 1 optimized guy but when I optimized half the group he didn't even have a chance.

 I was really confused because when I posted the build I din't get a single pat on the back, in fact I was told my lazy shaman was pretty weak compared to the uber builds that the "popular" people on this board make. I guess my confusion is that how can my build not be worth anything on the board yet totally destroy a game by granting ridiculous def bonuses (mostly untyped, 1 shield, 1 power) and big attacks to the point that the game is un playable against a continent destroyer level 30 and we are 26. He literally couldn't hit us hardly and with my bonuses we rarely missed. How do you guys play these builds in a game without the DM getting crazy frustrated. I literally ruined the game and it wasn't fun.

when i was building their guys I wasn't going crazy either. I just used elven chain shirt and individualized their NAD feats and took feats for the swordmage that increased his bonuses and whatnot. I really mostly worked on synergizing everything to a particular damage type and moving their attributes around to get better defenses yet still qualify for feats. In fact he was so unhittable I changed his AC from 49 without any of my shaman bonuses to 46. But after you added in the Winged shield and my bonuses (yes I know my shield bonus and his shield do not combine, but my shield bonus is +1 over his so it is better), he was at almost 60 ac. I built him with those teleporting shoes and his PP gave him an untyped bonus to all D's whenever he TP's, and then translocating cloak gave him an untyped +2 AC/REF. So he had mad bonuses and it ruined the game.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" /> I was really confused because when I posted the build I din't get a single pat on the back, in fact I was told my lazy shaman was pretty weak compared to the uber builds that the "popular" people on this board make.


Just take what you read on this board with a grain of salt. They come off strong trying to get their points across. Obviously making your allies unhittable will affect gameplay. But people here value different things. When your build is critiqued, remember that it is done so through someone else's perspective. Many guys on CharOp generally appreciate speed, accuracy, and damage to kill monsters as quickly as possible. This is what some of them consider to be optimized, with the implication that other stuff is not otpimized.

Buffing defenses as you did makes your team unhittable, but doesn't allow you to kill that Tarrasque any quicker. The fight will drag on because it can't hit you and you guys are slugging through its massive HP total. This is not fun for a lot of people, so CharOp doesn't support it generally.

Just keep in mind that all games are different and that many of the regulars here optimize within a narrow focus. But that's not to say that your build isn't optimized.

Yes, your build is optimized. But as the rest of us already knew, making yourself and your party unhittable sucks. The results of your game should be testament enough to that.
Yeah, I forgot that I also did some work on the mark of the Swordmage so he had a -3 to hit anyone including the swordmage, so in addition to huge defenses he also was strapped with a -3 to hit everything but himself, even if he was included in the attack and he granted full time CA because he was next to my Shaman doggie (tome expertise! yay). I have to figure out a way to measure this op stuff out to still be fun. but I enjoy synergizing so much. My goal is to be unhittable and do massive damage, but once I achieved that goal it was not fun LOL
nope, I came here looking for honest opinions about the build I spent about 80 hours on. I got nothing except I was told it wasn't as good as one that some other guy had made. I then played it and broke the game. As you can tell from my past interactions, affirmation is not my goal. I was, however, confused as to why my sucky build broke the game.

EDIT: Khan actually explained it very well. People here re focused on DPR more than defense because defense drags a game out. But I see builds with 56+AC standing still with no add-ons for things like a shadow band ring or other misc stuff. And these builds generally throw out huge debuffs if the creature attacks someone else. That being the case when I was close to it I figured I was still good, but to be honest those 56AC builds would have to be unplayable because they couldn't be hit and that is no fun.
I speak better than I write, and I write as though I was speaking but with out inflection and whatnot. I am not a writer.
Part of the problem is systemic, powers that grant temporary +stat bonus to attack or defense can be horribly wrong. When monsters normally need an 11 to hit you and that goes up to a 15, that doesn't seem so terrible at low levels. At higher levels with greater defense optimization, when monsters need a 13 to hit you, and that goes up to a 21 with the buff, stuff can break down.

Under these conditions, the MM1 Tarrasque is a pansy. It first needs to be updated to today's standards, and then it needs to be updated to deal with charop standards. So, yes, your DM has to cheat in order to challenge your characters. This is probably nothing new to any DM who has run any epic games for even mildly optimized characters. Condition locks used to make DM's cry, now DM's just add ways for their solos to shake out of them, or reduce their effectiveness. If you do too much damage, DM will compensate with resistances, healing, or respawning. If you can withstand too much damage, DM will compensate with more attacks or more damage. A good DM will do whatever is necessary to challenge the PC's witout slaughtering them, regardless of optimization level of the characters.
Actually Mengu got the exact point, as did Khan. My point was that if my build, that everyone said wasn't near as good as other people's builds can break a game how can all the uber-optimized builds even be playable in a game? Obviously I spent a lot of time on the build, but it still wasn't up to uber-nerd standards and even then my lackluster build killed the game. Imagine if a real optimizer with a name that people know and fall all over themselves to praise at the introduction of each new build, was to play an ACTUALLY good build, it would be fruitless and no fun to be unbeatable. That is all I am saying. I also do find it funny that builds that I would consider worse than other builds on the OP forum are just lavished with huge praise just because the person has orc in their name or mello or whatnot. Not to say their builds are bad, but I looked through probably 50 of them and to be honest I saw a ton of praise and not so hugely inventive builds. The top 10 DPR kings are pretty inventive though.
I will admit I'm tired (it's 5am here). I will give you a break down of more serious feedback when I wake up tomorrow. Mostly it will be tips for your DM, because the encounter you described sounded more suitable for people with LSM than those who even frequent these boards occasionally. 
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
I've removed several bits of content in this thread due to hostile posts and trolling, all of which are against the Code of Conduct, found here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct 

Keep it friendly, and keep it civil. 
Actually Mengu got the exact point, as did Khan. My point was that if my build, that everyone said wasn't near as good as other people's builds can break a game how can all the uber-optimized builds even be playable in a game? Obviously I spent a lot of time on the build, but it still wasn't up to uber-nerd standards and even then my lackluster build killed the game. Imagine if a real optimizer with a name that people know and fall all over themselves to praise at the introduction of each new build, was to play an ACTUALLY good build, it would be fruitless and no fun to be unbeatable. That is all I am saying. I also do find it funny that builds that I would consider worse than other builds on the OP forum are just lavished with huge praise just because the person has orc in their name or mello or whatnot. Not to say their builds are bad, but I looked through probably 50 of them and to be honest I saw a ton of praise and not so hugely inventive builds. The top 10 DPR kings are pretty inventive though.



Perhaps I could invite you to read the Primer in my sig, and stickied at the top of the forum? I'll put it simply:

1) Optimised builds assume optimised DMs.

2) CO players KNOW not to bring their 'big guns' to bear on non-optimised DMs, and often still enjoy such games, especially if the campaign is compelling.

3) Practical, well built concepts that demonstrate a good package aren't always and don't need to be inventive, because we know what pieces work well together.

4) DPR-king inventive builds are often even less playable, due to relying on rules abuses, heavy item and/or consumable reliance, or over sacrifice of general capability for damage dealing.
A Beginners Primer to CharOp. Archmage's Ascension - The Wizard's Handbook. Let the Hammer Fall: Dwarf Warpriest/Tactical Warpriest/Indomitable Champion, a Defending Leader. Requiem for Dissent: Cleric/Fighter/Paragon of Victory Melee Leader Ko te manu e kai i te miro, nona te ngahere. Ko te manu e kai i te matauranga e, nano te ao katoa. It's the proliferation of people who think the rules are more important than what the rules are meant to accomplish. - Dedekine
have to figure out a way to measure this op stuff out to still be fun. but I enjoy synergizing so much. My goal is to be unhittable and do massive damage, but once I achieved that goal it was not fun LOL


That goes with any type of optimization. Taking it too far will probably always spoil the fun, whether you're optimizing defenses, damage, control, healing, etc.

And really, don't take a lot of the builds and attitudes on this board so seriously. The best thing to do is know your DM, players, and your game, and then cherry-pick useful information from the regulars here and their handbooks that is applicable to you.
This is the primary reason unhittable builds aren't every played by any CharOp regulars. What sounds more fun, a 10 round combat where you are never in any danger and take zero damage, or a four round combat where the whole party is bloodied... but is never really in any danger? Both as a DM and a player, I think the latter is the correct answer. There can be dramatic tension in the latter scenario, whereas in the former any such tension would be highly contrived.

Though as a DM who has played against Tiefling RM Bards with Mantle of Unity and Warlock's Wrath, DMs can adapt to anything with enough innovation, but 10 round combats are boring. If I had a party that was regularly engaging in grindy combats because of builds optimized around defense, it'd be "rocks fall, everybody dies."



The DM is going to be adjusting the creatures as apropos and I guess that is what you need to do, but then it just seems easier to not min/max so we don't have to just adjust the creatures to match you anyhow. When it boils down to it I think my post was to say ... "Why super optimize when the DM will just have to super optimize the creatures to match you?" I may just be thinking out loud right now, but I will have to find a happy medium. This campaign is almost done and on the next one we will be trying things different. But it is not in my nature to not take the best feat for a situation. You will not find me taking Skill focus streetwise anytime soon. So hopefully I can find that spot where I feel I did my best, without ruining things.
I'm curious if the "Swordmage causing -3 to hit everyone including themself" is another instance of "CB says it works"
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Foe binder ring and dragonmark for extra mark penalty. Not that elusive of a combo.
Foe binder ring and dragonmark for extra mark penalty. Not that elusive of a combo.


When you mark an enemy, the enemy takes the -2 penalty to attack rolls against other creatures even when you are included in the attack.

That's even from the CB.


"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I made an error in wording. The -3 is against other creatures even when he is included in the attack. not for him as well. I obviously made an error in what I was saying. Does not mean I was cheating. I got it mixed up, but you can obviously see what I am saying. Even when he is included the foe takes the penalty. No grievious harm done, I made an error. We played it like what you are saying, not with the bonus to him too.



EDIT: I went back and edited the wording error. 
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Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Thank you very much.
    I've removed content from this thread because baiting/harassment is a violation of the Code of Conduct.  You can review the Code of Conduct here www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_...

Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.


Frankly, no. Just because you ORCs have the authority to delete or edit our posts, doesn't actually give you the authority to determine whose posts are meaningful, useful, or generally right. Continuing to silence someone for being honest, but rude, while ignoring the baiting braggart has an overall negative impact on this community.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Thank you very much.



Says the guy who called someone an idiot and had their post removed.

I made an error in wording. The -3 is against other creatures even when he is included in the attack. not for him as well. I obviously made an error in what I was saying. Does not mean I was cheating. I got it mixed up, but you can obviously see what I am saying. Even when he is included the foe takes the penalty. No grievious harm done, I made an error. We played it like what you are saying, not with the bonus to him too.



EDIT: I went back and edited the wording error. 

Unfortunately when you brazenly cheat and don't care, people are going to assume you're cheating when you post things that are inaccurate. You've proven you don't care about the rules. Which unfortunately calls into question everything you post concerning characters and etc., actually. I'd give 50/50 odds that the reason your party is having such an easy time is because your party is erring in trusting you concerning how things work.

You've given yourself this reputation through your own actions. Sucks when your actions have consequences, doesn't it?
#notbragging
#notbaiting


I have been on CO board for 3 years now and I have been  getting better at building characters. This is the first time I have built a broken one. There is an entire list of broken builds, not once did I see you throwing this intense malice at them. My goal of this post is just to say that I found the downfall of overpowering your character. I ruined our 2+ year game by overpowering the characters. This forum is about overpowering characters. That being said this is the proper forum for a paying customer to talk about his optimization experiences without getting attacked viciously because in the past I have used a feat as written in the CB ... once. People attacking paying customers is not a good incentive for them to come back. This is a business not an independent hobby forum.

I come to talk shop. Not get dissed on incessantly. I admit who I am. I use a single feat as described in the CB and in some areas of the dragon magazine and in the compendium. There are several places where the dread of Sakkors is written as it is in the CB. There is only 1 spot I can find where it is written with the caveat that you just used shadow jaunt. I don't doubt it was intended to be there, but more reference points, including in the magazine (unless you click on a tiny colored link) it is written without that caveat. Even so I don't see how the vitriol is warranted. I mean there are some pretty nasty things being said and I don't think Orc is wrong in stopping that.
Also I could post the builds, but I really didn't even do anything fancy to make them overpowered. That is part of what surprised me so much about this situation.
So many things wrong in that post.

1.) You didn't build a broken character, you built a boring character.

2.) There is no "danger" of bringing optimized (not overpowered, overpowered is both a matter of opinion and subjective to your party and your DM's experience), it depends entirely on you play them.

3.) And this is also the correct forum for you to be corrected when you post about said experiences. Don't like it? Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

4.) Yes, we know you admit you're a cheater and don't care. That was my point. Though how you don't see how a forum dedicated to optimizing within the rules wouldn't give you a hard time for cheating the rules is beyond me. Especially when your reaction to being corrected was, and still is, whining about it and pretending you aren't cheating. The correct reaction is "Well, that sucks, I wish the CB/Compendium were more reliable, but I'll tell my DM and stop using it incorrectly."

5.) If you've never seen someone viciously mocked for cheating, being arrogant about cheating, continually misreading the rules, etc., then that calls into question the idea that you've been on the CO board for more than a month, much less three years. Hell, it happens every time Marshall posts in the Sorcerer thread.
Also I could post the builds, but I really didn't even do anything fancy to make them overpowered. That is part of what surprised me so much about this situation.



If you're not just trolling, then there's no reason not to post the build(s).

It's pretty silly to post a thread about a build without giving the build.
Also I could post the builds, but I really didn't even do anything fancy to make them overpowered. That is part of what surprised me so much about this situation.

You should. That'll be great fun.
Swordmage build.. This is my version. He changed it to a different mark and he took most of my item suggestions. He changed a couple things but not much, I don't have a copy of his current build as was played last night.
 
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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Brians craziness, level 26
Eladrin, Swordmage, Shiere Knight, Draconic Incarnation
Build: Shielding Swordmage
Swordmage Aegis Option: Aegis of Shielding
Ensorcelled Mind Option: Ensorcelled Mind Intelligence
Imperious Presence Option: Imperious Presence Intelligence
Ancient Resurgence Option: Intelligence
Ancient Resurgence Option: Constitution
High Imaskar (High Imaskar Benefit)
Theme: Order Adept

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 15, CON 22, DEX 14, INT 28, WIS 10, CHA 16

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 13, CON 13, DEX 12, INT 17, WIS 8, CHA 12


AC: 48 Fort: 44 Ref: 40 Will: 40
HP: 187 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 46

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +41, Athletics +20, Endurance +24, History +33, Insight +18

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +15, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Dungeoneering +13, Heal +13, Intimidate +16, Nature +13, Perception +13, Religion +26, Stealth +15, Streetwise +16, Thievery +15

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Order Adept Attack: Argent Rain
Eladrin Racial Power: Fey Step
Swordmage Feature: Aegis of Shielding
Swordmage Attack 1: Booming Blade
Swordmage Attack 1: Lightning Lure
Swordmage Utility 2: Channeling Shield
Arcana Utility 2: Arcane Mutterings
Swordmage Attack 3: Transposing Lunge
Swordmage Attack 5: Swordmage Shielding Fire
Swordmage Utility 6: Armathor's Step
Swordmage Utility 10: Dimensional Dodge
Shiere Knight Attack 11: Ensorcelled Mind
Shiere Knight Utility 12: Fey Escape
Swordmage Attack 17: Thundering Vortex
Swordmage Attack 19: Whirling Threat
Shiere Knight Attack 20: Imperious Presence
Swordmage Utility 22: Ghost Walk
Swordmage Attack 23: Bravado Strike
Swordmage Attack 25: Sword Duel
Draconic Incarnation Attack 26: Draconic Form

FEATS
Level 1: White Lotus Riposte
Level 2: Intelligent Blademaster
Level 4: Mark of Storm
Level 6: Shield Proficiency: Light
Level 8: Skill Focus (Arcana)
Level 10: Superior Fortitude
Level 11: Greater Aegis of Shielding
Level 12: Greater Swordmage Warding
Level 14: Superior Will
Level 18: Improved Swordmage Warding
Level 20: White Lotus Master Riposte
Level 21: Swordmage Implement Expertise
Level 21: Total Aegis
Level 22: Rapid Aegis Reaction
Level 24: Heavy Blade Expertise
Level 26: Epic Fortitude

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit
Glowing Globe
Guardian's Whistle
Endless Canteen
Handy Haversack
Horned Ring x1
Bracers of Escape (paragon tier)
Ioun Stone of Intellect x1
Gloves of Camaraderie x1
Eladrin Ring of Passage
Boots of Teleportation x1
Winged Shield Light Shield
Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier) x1
Elven Chain Shirt (paragon tier)
Cloak of Translocation +5 x1
Sword of Black Ice Longsword x1
Belt of the Witch King x1
Runic Ray Leather Armor +5 x1
Foe Binder Ring x1
Eberron Shard of Lightning (epic tier)
====== End ======





My shaman/warlord ... I was goofing around with it earlier seeing what 30 will look like so he is at 26 in reality, but 30 in this build .. which I didn't finish picking options for.
Show
 

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
MBA granting, level 30
Genasi, Shaman/Warlord, White Raven, Reincarnate Champion
Companion Spirit (Hybrid) Option: Elemental Spirit (Hybrid)
Hybrid Shaman Option: Hybrid Shaman Will
Warlord Leadership Option: Battlefront Leader (Hybrid)
Hybrid Warlord Option: Hybrid Warlord Will
Hybrid Talent Option: Spirit Boon (Hybrid)
Epic Vitality Option: Epic Vitality Intelligence
Elemental Manifestation Option: Sandsoul
Past Spirit Option: Past Spirit (Shadar-kai)
Past Spirit Option: Past Spirit (Halfling)
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Strength
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Lightning
Firepulse Option: Firepulse Strength
Earthshock Option: Earthshock Strength
Darkfire Option: Darkfire Intelligence
Razor Storm Key Ability: Razor Storm Strength
Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)
Theme: Order Adept

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 24, CON 14, DEX 12, INT 28, WIS 10, CHA 16

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 15, CON 11, DEX 10, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 14


AC: 46 Fort: 42 Ref: 43 Will: 46
HP: 185 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 46

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +35, Heal +22, Insight +22, Religion +31

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +14, Athletics +20, Bluff +20, Diplomacy +20, Dungeoneering +17, Endurance +17, History +26, Intimidate +20, Nature +19, Perception +17, Stealth +14, Streetwise +20, Thievery +14

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Order Adept Attack: Argent Rain
Sandsoul Genasi Racial Utility: Sandslide
Shaman Feature: Call Spirit Companion
Shaman Feature: Healing Spirit
Shaman Feature: Speak with Spirits
Warlord Feature: Inspiring Word
Warlord Feature: Battlefront Shift
Multiple Class Utility: Defender Aura
Paladin Attack: Righteous Radiance
Shadar-kai Racial Power: Shadow Jaunt
Halfling Racial Power: Second Chance
Duergar Racial Power: Infernal Quills
Gnome Racial Power: Fade Away
Dragonborn Racial Power: Dragon Breath
Eladrin Racial Power: Fey Step
Elf Racial Power: Elven Accuracy
Tiefling Racial Power: Infernal Wrath
Genasi Racial Power: Firepulse
Genasi Racial Power: Earthshock
Genasi Racial Power: Promise of Storm
Genasi Racial Power: Swiftcurrent
Genasi Racial Power: Windwalker
Drow Racial Power: Darkfire
Bugbear Racial Power: Predatory Eye
Drow Racial Power: Cloud of Darkness
Githyanki Racial Power: Telekinetic Leap
Githzerai Racial Power: Iron Mind
Gnoll Racial Power: Ferocious Charge
Hobgoblin Racial Power: Hobgoblin Resilience
Minotaur Racial Power: Goring Charge
Orc Racial Power: Warrior's Surge
Longtooth Shifter Racial Power: Longtooth Shifting
Razorclaw Shifter Racial Power: Razorclaw Shifting
Warforged Racial Power: Warforged Resolve
Bladeling Racial Power: Razor Storm
Deva Racial Power: Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes
Goliath Racial Power: Stone's Endurance
Half-Orc Racial Power: Furious Assault
Wilden Racial Power: Voyage of the Ancients
Wilden Racial Power: Wrath of the Destroyer
Wilden Racial Power: Pursuit of the Hunter
Changeling Racial Power: Changeling Trick
Kalashtar Racial Power: Bastion of Mental Clarity
Genasi Racial Power: Acid Surge
Genasi Racial Power: Firedeath
Genasi Racial Power: Plaguebearer
Genasi Racial Power: Void Assumption
Shardmind Racial Power: Shard Swarm
Mul Racial Power: Incredible Toughness
Thri-Kreen Racial Power: Thri-kreen Claws
Dragonborn Racial Power: Dragonfear
Dwarf Racial Power: Dwarven Resilience
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Half-Elf Racial Power: Knack for Success
Embersoul Genasi Racial Attack: Ashfall Evasion
Magmasoul Genasi Racial Utility: Flowing Magma
Sunsoul Genasi Racial Utility: Sun Flare
Shaman Attack 1: Spirit Infusion
Warlord Attack 1: Opening Shove
Shaman Utility 2: Spirits of Battle
Warlord Utility 6: Rousing Words
Warlord Attack 7: Friendly Fire
Warlord Utility 10: Defensive Rally
White Raven Attack 11: Inspirational Assault
White Raven Utility 12: Order from Chaos
Shaman Utility 16: Faces of the Fallen
Warlord Attack 19: Exhorted Counterattack
White Raven Attack 20: White Raven's Gambit
Shaman Utility 22: Spirit of the World Healer
Shaman Attack 23: Spirit of the Ram
Warlord Attack 25: Precision Stance
Reincarnate Champion Utility 26: Swift Reincarnation
Warlord Attack 27: A Plan Comes Together
Shaman Attack 29: Heart of Bedlam

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Spirit of Vigor
Level 4: Mark of Warding
Level 6: Tome Expertise
Level 8: Squire of Righteousness
Level 10: Superior Fortitude
Level 12: Spirit's Step
Level 14: Last Legion Officer
Level 16: Elemental Spirit Adept
Level 20: Superior Will
Level 21: Mighty Spirit
Level 21: Champion's Countenance
Level 22: Protective Leadership
Level 22: Ghostly Rejuvenation
Level 24: Devout Protector Expertise
Level 26: Epic Will

ITEMS
Bracers of Escape (heroic tier) x1
Boots of Free Movement x1
Demonskin Tattoo (heroic tier) x1
Wizard's Curtain
Banish Vermin
Backpack of Concealment
Exodus Knife
Adventurer's Kit
Climber's Kit
Disguise Kit
Identification Papers with Portrait
Inquisitive's Kit
Ghoul Candle
Delver's kit
Surveyor's gear
Broom of Flying
Avandra's Boon of Escape (level 13)
Chieftain's Trident +4 x1
Ring of Tactical Brilliance x1
Lesser Ring of Feather Fall x1
Cord of Divine Favor x1
Confusion Ray +4
Elven Chain Shirt (paragon tier)
Symbol of Gajz +5 x1
Foe Stone
Pouches of Shared Acquisition
Battle Standard of the Tides
Battle Standard of the Stalwart
Hag's Doorknob
Elixir of Invisibility (paragon tier)
Silver Sand (paragon tier)
Elixir of Water Breathing (paragon tier)
Potion of Cure Critical Wounds
Potion of Invulnerability (paragon tier)
Gloves of the Healer (epic tier) x1
Bashing Shield Heavy Shield (epic tier) x1
Ray Leather Armor of Shared Valor +5 x1
Mirrored Mask x1
Moonlight Lavaliere +6 x1
Silence
Alarm
Secret Page
Hold Portal
Fastidiousness
Preservation
Fluid Funds
Eye of Alarm
Explosive Runes
Light Ward
Undead Ward
Skull Watch
Arcane Lock
Snare
Eavesdropper's Foil
Starshine
Bolster Object
Thief's Lament
Wyvern Watch
Protection from Energy
Glyph of Warding
Banish Illusions
Land Ward
Arcane Barrier
Demicache
Masking Shroud
Sentinel Eye
Eye of Warning
Voicecatcher Veil
Scramble Portal
Stasis Shell
Safeguard
Teleport Catcher
Guards and Wards
Forbiddance
Chamber of Vulnerability
Imprisonment
====== End ======

 




 


 
When I speak with most of the people in CharOp channel, it seems their optimization is actually needed to survive they DMs encounters. It seems to me its Dungeonmaster vs. Players and the challenge for both players and DM is to win. Thats the fun about CharOp if you ask me, where you do everything in your power to counter, control or otherwise beat the encounter. But always doing it within the rules. You can play anyway you like, but if you go to the table with an optimized party and the DM is not ready for it, of cause it wont end up as a real challenge.
Not sure if that build is serious... it has Implement and Weapon powers but Heavy Blade expertise only applies to weapon powers. So many things wrong with both builds...
How often does the Swordmage actually trigger WLMR when he's aoe marking with total aegis?
I have no idea what you are talking about. If you have something specific please do tell. Also it might be good to know which character you are talking about. I don't attack with my shaman, unless I am forced to.

On the swordmage I dind't pick any of his powers. I just did feats and equipment and attribute placement (also PP and ED). I do see that he has lightning lure and no implement. He pretty much uses booming blade, but it does say on his attack card that he can use Luring Strike with his long sword. That is a pretty big thing to be incorrect on the CB. it may be though I guess.
How often does the Swordmage actually trigger WLMR when he's aoe marking with total aegis?



The enemy has to be NOT marked by you to use WLMR, so in this last fight with a single creature he dind't use it at all, and I just did the mods so he hasn't used it.

I have no idea what you are talking about. If you have something specific please do tell. Also it might be good to know which character you are talking about. I don't attack with my shaman, unless I am forced to.

On the swordmage I dind't pick any of his powers. I just did feats and equipment and attribute placement. I do see that he has lightning lure and no implement. He pretty much uses booming blade, but it does say on his attack card that he can use Luring Strike with his long sword. That is a pretty big thing to be incorrect on the CB. it may be though I guess. 



Heavy Blade Expertise only affects his weapon powers, all the implement powers he chose will be at -3 to hit. If you use the CB and he hasn't noticed this yet... I'd be pretty amazed - his implement powers will have a much lower attack bonus listed.
Yes, well, that is his choice I guess. They do show a 28 to hit instead of in the 30's.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Heavy Blade Expertise only affects his weapon powers, all the implement powers he chose will be at -3 to hit. If you use the CB and he hasn't noticed this yet... I'd be pretty amazed - his implement powers will have a much lower attack bonus listed.



It will display as -6 due to proficiency bonus.

A Beginners Primer to CharOp. Archmage's Ascension - The Wizard's Handbook. Let the Hammer Fall: Dwarf Warpriest/Tactical Warpriest/Indomitable Champion, a Defending Leader. Requiem for Dissent: Cleric/Fighter/Paragon of Victory Melee Leader Ko te manu e kai i te miro, nona te ngahere. Ko te manu e kai i te matauranga e, nano te ao katoa. It's the proliferation of people who think the rules are more important than what the rules are meant to accomplish. - Dedekine
Yeah, I will let him know about his power selection and the implement deficiencies. I would go with mostly weapon powers if it were me.

Now about the Shaman build. Alcestis said it has multiple things wrong with it. I don't think I have anything off-kilter on that one. I would love to know about it if I do. 
At-level creatures hit the Swordmage's Ref and Will on an 11, though teleport bonuses boost that slightly. I have no idea where you were getting a level 30 needing 20s to hit, except off AC, are you applying Mark of Warding to defenses granted by Features and Feats? Because it only works on Powers.

Also, just suggesting a Swordmage only use Weapon powers is cringeworthy. A Swordmage should only have 3 Weapon Powers, ever, and one of those is Booming Blade.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Yes I was, is that not the case? Apparently not. But even with 1 off on that I still grant +1 toAC full time and +2 to all NAD's when at full health and some situational shifting bonuses and power bonuses from my dailies and such. SO I pretty much always have big bonuses going.
You're nowhere near the claimed 60 unless your shaman has powers I'm not seeing.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Well, he has 48 on the sheet I gave you here. Then his winged shield floating in front of him is not counted in the total so that is +1 to AC/REF, making it 49. Then with what used to be a +2 bonus to AC he had 51 then my battlestandard is out with a +2 power bonus to all def = 53 then his teleporting bonus is 4 = 57 and not sure where he got his other 3 but he said he was right up near 60 Perhaps it was concealment from some power from our warlock or something.

Granted it is a big blow with the mark of warding thing not being a +1 to feat features... but it is still close to it without using dailies.

and with the creatures having I think it was a 35 to hit and going against AC it was futile. The efreets couldn't hit my shaman at all except a 20. That is because my armor let's me get any defense bonuses I give out to other back on to me (of course only 1 instance of each I assume .. or do the untyped bonuses stack? That would be stupid if they did).
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