Warlord's Combat Leader class ability

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Yeah not sure how many other ways we can explain this..
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)


Meanwhile, back at the gaming table …


DM:      With a last expiring gasp, the evil wizard waves his wand and hurls a curse at you, Taskal. (rolls dice) 32! What is your fortitude, Taskal?


Taskal:  29.


DM:      Oh dear.  Take 19 points of damage, and you are petrified. Well, team, your warlord has been turned to stone.


Bodag: But he is the only one who knows the way out.


Taskal:  I can tell them where the map is.


DM:      No you can’t. You’re turned to stone. You can’t speak.


Kresta:  Maybe if I listen very carefully. (rolls dice)  There, I rolled a natural 20.  I must be able to hear him.


DM:      No, you can’t hear him.


Kresta:  Why not?


DM:      He’s made of stone.  He can’t speak so you can’t hear him. Nobody can hear him.


(pause)


DM:      And oh, look!  Here come some more monsters.  They must have heard the previous battle and have come to investigate.  Fortunately you were not surprised.  Time to roll initiative.


Bodag: This looks bad.  No warlord, so no healing and no bonus to initiative.  We could suffer here.


DM:      No, you do get the initiative bonus.


Bodag: But the rule says I have to be able to hear him.


DM:      It does.


Bodag: And you just said we couldn’t hear him.


DM:      Correct.


Bodag: So we don’t get the bonus.


DM:      No, you get the bonus.


Bodag: How’s that.


DM:      Well the rules don’t say that you can’t hear him, so you can hear him.


Kresta:  Then I can hear him!


DM:      Of course you can’t.  He’s a solid block of stone.


Kresta:  But you just said …


DM:      In the game you can’t hear him, but for the purposes of the rules, you can.


Bodag: I thought the rules and the game where the same thing.


DM:      Oh no. 


Thakis:  If the rules don’t say I can’t hear him, then I can?


DM:      Yes.


Thakis:  Then I can hear him, and he can tell me the way out.


DM:      NO YOU CAN’T!  Look at him. He is a solid block of stone. You can’t hear him and he can’t tell you the way out.


Monty Python would be proud.




LOL well said..  well said.

Good sense + Good judgement with interpretation of the letter of the law (literal, or RAW) while preserving the spirit of the law (intent, or RAI) can be hard.

Any portion of this missing in the decision making process when it comes to rules, makes it hard to come to an agreement.

Everyone of you guys post has merit.  But I got to agree with Yandorez though.  His seem to have all 4;  Good sense, good judgement, RAW and RAI, and his method probably works best in the game.  Rest will cause too much conflict and drive players & dm crazy.  IMHO.

Not saying those who disagree lacks any of it.  Just saying.  
 
Except for the fact that his post is lacking RAW Ghost...
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Except for the fact that his post is lacking RAW Ghost...



Yup true.  It's his interpretation, but i like it.  In his post, he is just explaining why he interprets it that way.  

I think for me, Warlord Presence is a non-magical ability.  Just a inspiring class who shouts, inspiring words and acts inspiring actions, henceforth it limits to ally who can "see" and "hear" him for the bonus.  

If I see it as a magical ability,  like paladin's Divine Challenge, then everything else makes sense.  He can be incapacitated and still his "magic" works.

I guess it's just whether people want to treat this class ability as magical or non-magical that will be the crux in making sense out of it.
Except for the fact that his post is lacking RAW Ghost...



Yup true.  It's his interpretation, but i like it.  In his post, he is just explaining why he interprets it that way.  

I think for me, Warlord Presence is a non-magical ability.  Just a inspiring class who shouts, inspiring words and acts inspiring actions, henceforth it limits to ally who can "see" and "hear" him for the bonus.  

If I see it as a magical ability,  like paladin's Divine Challenge, then everything else makes sense.  He can be incapacitated and still his "magic" works.

I guess it's just whether people want to treat this class ability as magical or non-magical that will be the crux in making sense out of it.



I'm not saying you can't like his ruling.  Knock yourself out.  But don't state it is RAW when it isn't.  Because either you are unknowingly wrong (and thus we should discuss this) or you are knowningly wrong (and should stop spreading incorrect information).
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Can you quote your source on this?  I would have thought "totally incapacitated" in the defintion of Unconcious (and hence in the definition of Petrified) would be more than enough to mean that you could not make sounds.



Its pretty simple.  Treat this warlord ability like a magical ability then it all makes sense.  Magic dont need logic.  You and I treat it like a non-magical ability, henceforth ability to hear the warlord = warlord's ability to make a sound matters even though it's not clearly stipulated. Neither is wrong.  Both can be argued endlessly with both sides making equal sense.  I do tend to lean towards non-magic since Paladin's divine challenge specifically defines it to be a magical compulsion, so players and dm don't argue about how that's done on animals etc.  If Warlord Presence was magical, I think they would have done the same but that's just my conjecture.






Can you quote your source on this?  I would have thought "totally incapacitated" in the defintion of Unconcious (and hence in the definition of Petrified) would be more than enough to mean that you could not make sounds.



Its pretty simple.  Treat this warlord ability like a magical ability then it all makes sense.  Magic dont need logic.  You and I treat it like a non-magical ability, henceforth ability to hear the warlord = warlord's ability to make a sound matters even though it's not clearly stipulated. Neither is wrong.  Both can be argued endlessly with both sides making equal sense.  I do tend to lean towards non-magic since Paladin's divine challenge specifically defines it to be a magical compulsion, so players and dm don't argue about how that's done on animals etc.  If Warlord Presence was magical, I think they would have done the same but that's just my conjecture.




You are right, you don't need logic.  What you need is clearcut rules.  Luckily we have those, and it still works if the warlord is petrified.
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I'm going to chuck my opinion into the "can hear, even if you -don't- hear" crowd. If you look at this like a nonmagical ability, you're assuming that the Warlord is somehow constantly vocally inspiring his allies, even if for some reason there's no action going on (his ability still functions perfectly well even when he is surprised in an ambush and therefore not immediately aware of combat imminence). I find this unlikely and am more likely to go with the key difference between "can" and "do". If you can hear a sound that the warlord makes, whether or not you actually do hear a sound, you get the bonus.


Also, the Paladin's "magical compulsion" is more vulnerable to incapacitation than the Warlord's, since his Divine Challenge is ineffective if he can't engage or attack the target on his turn (even immobilization or a slowed condition can cause this, unlike this debate over petrifying the warlord). Despite being a magical compulsion, it has less claim to reliability than Combat Leader.
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