And I'm Done For Now.


 The current playtest packet looks like an improvement over the last one but I think I am done with this game. Most of the classes look a little intersting (except the wizard) and they are getting alot of feedback based on the classes and responding to it and thats a good thing.

 However I'm the DM for my group and more importantly I also live in the real world. I live in New Zealand and the cost of computer ink here is close to $100 USD for a new ink cartridge. I was looking forward to playing D&DN this weekend and went to print out the beastiary. Its 95 pages long.

 I had already printed out the classes, How to play, spells, manuveurs etc but I was looking at several hundred pages of rules to print out. I don't have a laptop and after having DDN for a few years I need something in dead tree format. This playtest packet has more pages than the 1st ed PHB.

 Its a playtest and I realise that. I have done betas online etc but its not really costing you as a consumer except a little bit of you time to try it out. This beta is to much effort being blunt as they have only included a few sample adventures and my time is limited. If I am going to put in the time required really play this I will just put that time into developing my own stuff for 3.XYZ, 2nd ed or even Star Wars Saga. D&DN has to be easier to access though and it doesn't help that all of the current D&DN adventures are more or less dungeon hacks.

 Finally bounded accuracy just annoys me and I do not recall asking for it, wanting it and they seem unwilling to remove it and this current playtest they took it to extremes. The skill system annoys me no end as well also due to BA and this skill dice no offence just looks stupid.3rd ed got out of hand I admit with ACs and DCs being all over the place, 4th ed went nuts on hit points. Dial them back by all means I suggest an upper limit of AC/DC 30-40 or so, 25 is to low IMHO. Bounded accuracy has done some silly things to armor as well. Its bad when one prefers AD&D armor and weapon rules over D&DN. Something that was easily done in 1989 seems to hard to achieve in 2012. 3rd and 4th ed also had better rules in this regard.

 They also seem semi clueless on dead levels and combined with bounded accuracy there are levels where you only get hit points as candy, not even +1 to hit or a THACO increase. Combine with only 4 feats ever and yeah BORING. Whatever ones opinion is on Pathfinder, 4th ed and even Star Wars Saga (the post 3.5 d20 modern games) they all have one thing in commen. No dead levels. If they can't balance it mechanically give the classes non combat abilites or take a hard look at why they can't balance it (inflate the power level a bit). Shake and bake the big 3 (3rd ed, 4thed, SWSE) and I think you could come up with somehting better than D&DN.

 By know we know what went wrong wih 3.5 and 4th ed. In some ways I think 4th ed was an over reaction to the problems of 3.5. D&DN seems to be an over reaction to the problems of 4th ed. Each time WoTC has gone to reinvent the wheel they have kind of screwed it up.
 

 

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I for one will miss your input Z. If I had to print up the whole pack I would take it to my business printer, they would run that out in a few minutes for under 10$. And I'm with you there, if I was actively playtesting then I would want a hardcopy.

Anyway, its been great reading your input and thoughts about gaming in general, I hope you will stop in and say hello or even better just keep reading and speaking to the changes even if you are not actively playtesting. 

Enjoy the summer. Do you guys do a holiday season for christmas? 

Your quitting because they gave you too much?

Really, just don't print everything.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I haven't printed anything.  I just read it off my computer and write out little cheat sheets.
This is what laptops and tablets are for :P
This is what laptops and tablets are for :P




Guess you missed the part where he said “I don’t have a laptop, and I need something in a dead tree format.” Tongue Out

Samrin not everyone in the group has and uses tablets/laptops.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Samrin not everyone in the group has and uses tablets/laptops.



I have laptop and tablet, I print it.  I three hole punch it, I put it into a binder with tabs...everytime.

But on the topic, I don't mind the playtest, and keep every copy, it's a playtest.  I file my issues with them, every chance I get, and playtest.

My players do the same, but over all, they are having a great time.

We don't "do the math", we don't care about "equality" among races or classes.  We play to have fun.  Until we notice we cannot "have fun" these itmes have zero weight in our evaluation.


"The turning of the tide always begins with one soldier's decision to head back into the fray"

you can print things at libraries and colleges for pennies on the page.
Keep in mind he is from new Zealand. if it is costing him $100 for ink he probably isn't going to find a library/college to do it that cheap. With that said you don't have to print a single page. I tend to use note cards to keep track of monsters. Have everyone make characters before the game session or use pre gens. Write important things down. You don't have to print the whole thing and right now dead tree would cost you more than printing
 I have had fun with D&DN its not the man issue. I had fun with 4th ed as well to start with but I uspect that D&DN is going to get boring fast mostly due to bounded accurccy as it is currently implemented.

 I can have fun with any ediiton of D&D, including 4th ed which isn't our ideal pick o to speak. Put simply it is opportunity cost. In effect I will have to spend alot of time running this stuff let alone printing it. In effect I am paying money to do a playtest in which the basic assumption of that playtest (bounded accuracy being a big one) is set in concrete. Numbers got crazy in 3rd and 4th true but for me D&DN has issues. THe races are not bad but they are boring compared to anything sinces 2000 in 3rd ed, 4th ,PF whatever. The skill system basically blows and doesn't work very well (DCs are to low= more or less automatic success).

 Each playtest packet is getting bigger and bigger and if I want to keep up its looking like several reams of paper and ink cartridges. Or I can use those resources to buy more books or spend it on somehting else. THeres no support for D&DN from level 7-14. Sure I can fill it in myself but everything is going to be changed in the next packet anyway. THose hours required can be better spent on stuff I already have.

 Its been almost a year and they are still struggling with basic stuff like two weapon fighting which doesn't seem to be that hard to do.

 Why bother reinventing the wheel? d20, grab somesttas and have a hard look at the latter years of 3.5, SWSE and 4th ed to get a d20 core that works and scale the numbers down a bit if you want bounded accuracy. D&D went for 26 years where AC topped out at -10 (AC 30 these days). +5 to hit over 20 levels, AC 17 for the king of hell?

 THey can't even make armor intereting in this ediiton because of bonded accuracy. The modifers are to high lol. Whatever probelms 3.5 and 4th ed had they had better ways of dealing with basic things such as armor and weapons.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Keep in mind he is from new Zealand. if it is costing him $100 for ink he probably isn't going to find a library/college to do it that cheap. With that said you don't have to print a single page. I tend to use note cards to keep track of monsters. Have everyone make characters before the game session or use pre gens. Write important things down. You don't have to print the whole thing and right now dead tree would cost you more than printing



 I'm at college and I can get things like cheap binding. If I'm going to print out 200+ pages per packet I would rather buy a PDF for $10 or less and print that. Ink cartridge is $120 NZD and right now the NZD is getting around 0.83 USD.

 I was gonna run D&DN today and went to print out the beastiary and that alone is 100 pages (ok 95) A ream of paper is $8 here. My players wanted to do it but its just not worth it. Its hard to work out exactly how many pages I can print as I am using it for other stuff as well.

 It also takes time to print out that many pages espicially if one is trying to do them double sided.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Keep in mind he is from new Zealand. if it is costing him $100 for ink he probably isn't going to find a library/college to do it that cheap. With that said you don't have to print a single page. I tend to use note cards to keep track of monsters. Have everyone make characters before the game session or use pre gens. Write important things down. You don't have to print the whole thing and right now dead tree would cost you more than printing



do you really think a college/library is going to use an inkjet printer?

the reason they can charge just cents per page is because they use industrial laser printers that don't use ink. they use toner, a powder that's cheap even in new zealand. 
Isn't this the same dude that was making comments about peeps getting "butthurt" and over reacting to the playtest? What a hypocritical drama queen.



 Theres not alot I am actually that butt hurt over in D&DN. Its jsut got to the point where as a forever DM its not worth my time or money to play it. For whatever reason I refuse to pay money for playtest and this one is all over the place. Its also time intensive- opportunity cost I would rather do something else being honest.

 I don't like bounded accuracy as currently implemented. They might change that they might not. I may or may not like it.

 I am using a laser printer. $120 a cartridge, $60 to refill it if I want to void the warranty. Its not that cheap to get it done at the university (7 cents a page?). WHy would I pay $10-$15 to print a packet when I can buy a PDF or 3 for that

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I've removed content from this thread. Trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct
You can review the Code of Conduct here: company.wizards.com/conduct

Please remember to keep your posts polite, on topic and refrain from personal attacks. You are free to disagree with one another as long as it is done in a respectful manner. 
Lazer printers would be less then 10 cents per page.

Yes, it's expensive to get a new cartridge, but they should give you at least 10,000 pages.

So $2-$3. Unless your printing 5 copies.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Lazer printers would be less then 10 cents per page. Yes, it's expensive to get a new cartridge, but they should give you at least 10,000 pages. So $2-$3. Unless your printing 5 copies.



The amount it actually costs someone and the amount they charge is not the same thing.


I know for a fact that it didn't cost my college 10 cents per page to print, and that's what they charged people.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
The office size printers get 2-3 cents per copy. Most of that being paper.

10 cents is on the high side for a home lazer printer (or at least the highest i've seen, but i'd rather overestimate then under). The average is probably closer to 5.

10-25 cents for ink jet. They usually sell the printer under cost then upcharge the ink.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I can definatly understand the cost issue. I wouldn't be doing the playtest if I had to print the stuff out first.

But if you and your group do decide to get back into DnDN then try and get the players to chip in. If they want to playtest the system enough some of them should atleast be willing to help cover the bill.
Samrin not everyone in the group has and uses tablets/laptops.



That's why I said that's what they're for. :P
trebor_rjf my ink jet costs less than 10 cents a page and college costs me 15 cents a page. So I loose roughly 8 cents per page by going to campus to print it out.

I would assume toner is equally expensive in New Zealand at the same ratio ink and paper is. (if that isn't the case than he should look into it

 However I'm the DM for my group and more importantly I also live in the real world. I live in New Zealand and the cost of computer ink here is close to $100 USD for a new ink cartridge. I was looking forward to playing D&DN this weekend and went to print out the beastiary. Its 95 pages long.

1, drop the quality down as far as it goes. This will save a bunch of ink. 2, only copy monster pages you know you'll need or copy/paste what you need into a document file and print that out. You can save a lot of space/ink by changing the format and dropping the font size.

I gotta say... this really came out of left field.

I as well will miss you Zard. Good times. Stop around the forums once in a while even if you dont get to test
My two copper.
I as well will miss you Zard. Good times. Stop around the forums once in a while even if you dont get to test




Still going to be around the forums and wait fora bit. I might playtest it later but my players have the following opinions.

1. Rogue player. Enthusiastic she want to play a rogue alot.
2. Fighter player. Disappointed with dead levels, prefers 3rd ed fighter rolled up a second ed fighter today with 18/71 strength.
3. Wizard. Doesn't really care. Will ahppi9ly play D&DN/PF/2nd ed.
4. Mr Random. Play whatever, enjoys random stuff like getting hit with his own magic missiles. IDK.

 All of them are enthusiastic about trying out 2nd ed ATM as a break from years of 3.XYZ. Probably going to rewrite parts of Pathfinder (nerfin spell DCs, power attack and rapid shot in particular).

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

We played 2e levels 1-3 recently and both 4e and 5e are a definite improvement on the low level limitations of that edition.  However, it had a simplistic charm.  I think the simplified base 5e game will still have more to offer than 2e.

I do agree though that dead levels are a problem.  A system akin to 4e themes where your traits improve or you get background related benefits might be good.  I heard that higher levels may be padded out with legacy/prestige benefits which may fill in some blanks.

I think they system looks a little damage heavy compared to monster hit points and I'm still not happy that the full stat bonus gets added to attack rolls but otherwise I'm not unhappy at how 5e is shaping up.

Re-printing stuff is indeed an expensive pain but it's the price we pay for being involved in a playtest.  We can't be too ungrateful!
Dead levels will be fixes, but not untill the whole of the game stops changeing first.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

For now.

When you decide to playtest again, get your PCs to print copies of things out for you. Everyone is broke in college and it sucks.
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning." -Mike Mearls
I as well will miss you Zard. Good times. Stop around the forums once in a while even if you dont get to test




Still going to be around the forums and wait fora bit. I might playtest it later but my players have the following opinions.

1. Rogue player. Enthusiastic she want to play a rogue alot.
2. Fighter player. Disappointed with dead levels, prefers 3rd ed fighter rolled up a second ed fighter today with 18/71 strength.
3. Wizard. Doesn't really care. Will ahppi9ly play D&DN/PF/2nd ed.
4. Mr Random. Play whatever, enjoys random stuff like getting hit with his own magic missiles. IDK.

 All of them are enthusiastic about trying out 2nd ed ATM as a break from years of 3.XYZ. Probably going to rewrite parts of Pathfinder (nerfin spell DCs, power attack and rapid shot in particular).



Wait.  One of the reasons you don't want to play Next is that you and one of your players are dissapointed about dead levels and your solution is to play 2e?  Doesn't 2e define dead levels?
When the 2nd playtest package came out, I assumed that there would be an "errata" package (IE. a separate package where you could print off the pages where the rules changed from the 1st playtest, so you didn't have to print off the whole thing again). That would have saved some paper, as well as make it easier to see what changed between playtests. Oh well. 

I find that the demo rules given away for Free RPG Day get me motivated to explore systems I wouldn't normally. With the Internet, I can research any RPG I want, but I'm not motivated to because of the effort. Hopefully, WotC will have a 5ed primer available for Free RPG Day, along with a little adventure. 

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

I as well will miss you Zard. Good times. Stop around the forums once in a while even if you dont get to test




Still going to be around the forums and wait fora bit. I might playtest it later but my players have the following opinions.

1. Rogue player. Enthusiastic she want to play a rogue alot.
2. Fighter player. Disappointed with dead levels, prefers 3rd ed fighter rolled up a second ed fighter today with 18/71 strength.
3. Wizard. Doesn't really care. Will ahppi9ly play D&DN/PF/2nd ed.
4. Mr Random. Play whatever, enjoys random stuff like getting hit with his own magic missiles. IDK.

 All of them are enthusiastic about trying out 2nd ed ATM as a break from years of 3.XYZ. Probably going to rewrite parts of Pathfinder (nerfin spell DCs, power attack and rapid shot in particular).



Wait.  One of the reasons you don't want to play Next is that you and one of your players are dissapointed about dead levels and your solution is to play 2e?  Doesn't 2e define dead levels?



2nd ed is also free to play and even the fighter there still gets increases to THACO, saves, weapon proficiencies, non weapon proficiencies and multiple attacks and 2nd ed also has things like kits.

 If I had to print 200-300 pages to play 2nd ed and then another 2-300 pages every 1-2 months I wouldn't be playing it. I like options as I level up at least in terms of how  build my characters and 2nd ed has that and there are other advantages to (like monster requiring magic weapons to hit them, see Asmodeus thread about him being one shotted).

 I'll do playtests if they are convenient and fun. The fun is wearing off and its not convenient.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Oof. I don't print off the playtests (I use a laptop), and hadn't really even thought about the expense involved for people who have to do that. You always seemed otherwise pretty enthusiastic about the playtest or at least about improving the parts you were less enthusiastic about, so I hope you're able to eventually find a workaround or something less expensive.

The only other thing I can think of is copy-pasting the non-tabular parts of the playtest into a text file and shrinking it down super tiny before printing. I think the bulk of the playtest would come out okay-looking in that format and depending on what level of eye strain you're willing to endure it could cut the printing costs by a huge fraction.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
Yeah went to play it the other day and after spending half an hour printing off 100 odd pages and sorting them out and stapling them etc I dgot sick of it fast. Overall it looks like a good playtest even if I'm not a fan of BA as it currently is.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Yeah went to play it the other day and after spending half an hour printing off 100 odd pages and sorting them out and stapling them etc I dgot sick of it fast. Overall it looks like a good playtest even if I'm not a fan of BA as it currently is.


I'm still wondering why you have to print so much.  Now, let me add that I have never used a laptop to play D&D with, so that's not part of my consideration.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Its hundreds of pages to print out and its not

A. Cheap
B. Convenient.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Its hundreds of pages to print out and its not

A. Cheap
B. Convenient.


I get that.  That's the easy part to comprehend.  The part that gets me is why you have to print out all of the hundreds of pages.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Zardnaar, I hope you stick around and still give your input on the playtest packets even if you are not actually playtesting the material.  Even though I disagree with you on a lot of points, mostly centering around the value of anything 3e/3.5e, it is still best to have a lot of different voices around here.

I have my share of problems with Next.  Most of them center around the things from 2000+ that have crept into the game as 1e/2e AD&D are my favorite editions.  I do realize though that the nature of compromise means that no one is going to be completely satisfied, but just maybe enough people will be satisfied enough for this to be the most successful version of D&D yet. 

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

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Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

Zardnaar, I hope you stick around and still give your input on the playtest packets even if you are not actually playtesting the material.  Even though I disagree with you on a lot of points, mostly centering around the value of anything 3e/3.5e, it is still best to have a lot of different voices around here.

I have my share of problems with Next.  Most of them center around the things from 2000+ that have crept into the game as 1e/2e AD&D are my favorite editions.  I do realize though that the nature of compromise means that no one is going to be completely satisfied, but just maybe enough people will be satisfied enough for this to be the most successful version of D&D yet. 



 I liked 3.5 alot and things like vancian is subjective. I tend to focus on the major problems of a system (CoDzilla, HP bloat 3.5/4th) rather than nit pick over things like NADs vs saves.

 Fear is the Mind Killer