Give Rogues back Katana Proficiency!

Simply put, I don't know why you guys removed it in the first place, in the latest packet. Besides, playing a Katana-wielding Rogue was pretty darn awesome, and it fits archetypes like the ninja assassin quite well.
I'm pretty sure non samurai didn't carry katanas. It was punishable by death and all

Ninja used what is known as a Ninja To, or just a To. It was a nondescript, straight blade sword. But generally they used whatever they could get their hands on, because they were commoners more often than not.
My two copper.
I'm pretty sure non samurai didn't carry katanas. It was punishable by death and all

Ninja used what is known as a Ninja To, or just a To. It was a nondescript, straight blade sword. But generally they used whatever they could get their hands on, because they were commoners more often than not.

Well, there is a difference between a 'real' ninja and a fantasy ninja. There are plenty of instances of non samurai's using katanas in todays media/games. Noone blinks when an alien or Uma Thurman pulls out one, so why should we when it's an eastern style rogue/asassin?

But is a 'ninja' wielding a weapon no ninja would ever wield really an 'archetype'?


Carl  
But is a 'ninja' wielding a weapon no ninja would ever wield really an 'archetype'? 


I'd say it's far more prevalent a fantasy archetype than the historically accurate version.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
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playing a Katana-wielding Rogue was pretty darn awesome, and it fits archetypes like the ninja assassin quite well.



Conveniently enough, if you choose the assassin scheme for the rogue, you will be able to wield katanas.  
playing a Katana-wielding Rogue was pretty darn awesome, and it fits archetypes like the ninja assassin quite well.



Conveniently enough, if you choose the assassin scheme for the rogue, you will be able to wield katanas.  



Indeed.  Problem solved.



Carl
The word katana still sticks out to me, they could have called it something else.
The word katana still sticks out to me, they could have called it something else.

Interesting complaint, but I can see where it's coming from.  Do you have a better suggestion?

The metagame is not the game.

The word katana still sticks out to me, they could have called it something else.

Interesting complaint, but I can see where it's coming from.  Do you have a better suggestion?





Yeah, I don't want specific Japanese names for weapons as default, fine to call a dagger a tanto, a bastard sword a katana, a greatclub a tetsubo, etc, for certain campaigns, but I would prefer a less culturally specific name for the 1d10/finesse/slashing weapon of 5th Ed.

So, what's a good name for it?
The word katana still sticks out to me, they could have called it something else.

Interesting complaint, but I can see where it's coming from.  Do you have a better suggestion?





Yeah, I don't want specific Japanese names for weapons as default, fine to call a dagger a tanto, a bastard sword a katana, a greatclub a tetsubo, etc, for certain campaigns, but I would prefer a less culturally specific name for the 1d10/finesse/slashing weapon of 5th Ed.

So, what's a good name for it?



The problem is, there were no real equivelant weapons for a katana and a naginata to name two. A yumi and a daikyu are used by other culteres and have the non-culteral names in the books. A scimitar is another example of a culteral weapon that has no equal. Katana isn't used as a marketing word to get people to play with them, it's used because it has no real non-culteral version of the weapon, yet in a fantasy setting it wouldn't make sense to have people walk past it and say nah, I don't want a finesse bastard sword. I'd prefer a bastard sword or a short sword. They both aren't a katana.

And for the ninja, officially the ninja was trained in every weapon. He would carry the best concealable weapon with him or no weapon at all. This helps him pass guards without problems. But his power was disarm and using the enemies weapons, fight with everything he can get his hands on and stuff like that. Now that wouldn't be fair to other classes, a class that would have throw everything, fight with everything and weapon prof in everything. They at least gave them proff in katana, a weapon he disarmed often, or found while trying to carry out his orders. But I wouldn't be too upset with ninja not having proff in those weapons, as most said, they never carried them as it was punishable by death.
I'm pretty sure non samurai didn't carry katanas. It was punishable by death and all

Ninja used what is known as a Ninja To, or just a To. It was a nondescript, straight blade sword. But generally they used whatever they could get their hands on, because they were commoners more often than not.




Ninja to never existed outside of Hollywood. Most "ninja", which is a word invented by an Edo period playwright, were Samurai. Everything you wrote there is basically Hollywood.
The problem is, there were no real equivelant weapons for a katana and a naginata to name two.


Naginata = glaive.
Glad I read through to Samrin's post.

The Ninja-to is actually the invention of Stephen K. Hayes. While there may have been a Shinobi-to which was a modified Katana with a shorter blade to sheathe ration, it was still a katana. 
Glad I read through to Samrin's post.

The Ninja-to is actually the invention of Stephen K. Hayes. While there may have been a Shinobi-to which was a modified Katana with a shorter blade to sheathe ration, it was still a katana. 




Stephen Hayes does to feudal japanese history what Twilight did to the Vampire genre lol.
Sabre?   

I know  - not the same weapon.  But it has the same rough shape and they have played fast and loose with the actual descriptions of other weapons in the past..... 

As a fencing weapon, I tend to think of it as finessable. 

And I don't think we've ever had a sabre on the D&D equipment list that I recall....
  

Carl
The problem is, there were no real equivelant weapons for a katana and a naginata to name two.


Naginata = glaive.



And "katana"=großes Meßer/Kriegsmeßer

If you have to resort to making offensive comments instead of making logical arguments, you deserve to be ignored.

The word katana still sticks out to me, they could have called it something else.

I'm with you on that.

Danny

Sabre?   

I know  - not the same weapon.  But it has the same rough shape and they have played fast and loose with the actual descriptions of other weapons in the past..... 

As a fencing weapon, I tend to think of it as finessable. 

And I don't think we've ever had a sabre on the D&D equipment list that I recall....
  

Carl



I want to say there was a sabre in 2nd edition....maybe the Complete Fighter's Handbook?

I'm not sure, and don't have it to hand in order to check. But I do seem to recall seeing a sabre somewhere in a D&D equipment list.

For those confused on how DDN's modular rules might work, this may provide some insight: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/11/the-world-of-darkness-shines-when-it-abandons-canon

@mikemearls: Uhhh... do you really not see all the 3e/4e that's basically the entire core system?

 

It is entirely unnecessary to denigrate someone else's approach to gaming in order to validate your own.

Sabre?   

I know  - not the same weapon.  But it has the same rough shape and they have played fast and loose with the actual descriptions of other weapons in the past..... 

As a fencing weapon, I tend to think of it as finessable. 

And I don't think we've ever had a sabre on the D&D equipment list that I recall....
  

Carl



I want to say there was a sabre in 2nd edition....maybe the Complete Fighter's Handbook?

I'm not sure, and don't have it to hand in order to check. But I do seem to recall seeing a sabre somewhere in a D&D equipment list.




I think it was listed as an alternative to the scimitar (along with the cutlass) is first and on its own in Arms and Equipment?

I think it was listed as an alternative to the scimitar (along with the cutlass) is first and on its own in Arms and Equipment?



I forgot about the Arms and Equipment guide! I am a bad person.

That seems the most likely place that it could have been, given that book was fairly comprehensive as I recall (although, as exhibited, apparently my memory isn't all that fantastic...). 

For those confused on how DDN's modular rules might work, this may provide some insight: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/11/the-world-of-darkness-shines-when-it-abandons-canon

@mikemearls: Uhhh... do you really not see all the 3e/4e that's basically the entire core system?

 

It is entirely unnecessary to denigrate someone else's approach to gaming in order to validate your own.

I'm down with the inclusion of sabre over katana.

Danny

Agreed. A sabre feels like the kind of heavy sword a duelist-type fighter or rogue might use, and fits the default medival setting. I like that the rapier would be a lighter "dueling sword" or finesse weapon, and a sabre would be the heavier version.
This really deserved a thread?
Just give them a short-sword and call it a wakizashi and move on, people.
A katana is a completely different weapon to the sabre. The sabre is a force weapon, focusing on the weight of the blade to add to it's damage, while the katana is a finesse weapon, focusing on striking at the right spot. They are completely different. Not adding a katana to the list is fine, but they aren'tthe same.
A katana is a longsword.

Just have a sidebar or something, or a web extra, saying "Here's what we call the weapons, here are some other alternate names for them."
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
We can't come up with a name for this edition of D&D, and you are worried about a name for a specific rarely-used weapon in said edition?
Priorities, people!
Viva La "what ever version of D&D you are playing right now!"
I'm down with the inclusion of sabre over katana.

LOL An urgrosh or a spiked chain are fine but some of you have an issue with katana's? How about a cestus, something not really seen outside of greek/roman settings? Or a blowgun that's mostly eastern/native users? Heck, bolas doesn't sound too european either.

Feel free to swap names out in your game, but leave the base name that everyone knows. Tongue Out 

I'm down with the inclusion of sabre over katana.

LOL An urgrosh or a spiked chain are fine but some of you have an issue with katana's? How about a cestus, something not really seen outside of greek/roman settings? Or a blowgun that's mostly eastern/native users? Heck, bolas doesn't sound too european either.

Feel free to swap names out in your game, but leave the base name that everyone knows. Tongue Out 




First, I have no problem with the katana for folks who want to use it; the only thing I object to, re: the katana is the fanboy worship that "OMG it's the bestest sword EVAR!"

In regards to the urgrosh and spiked chain (and double axe, and double sword): personal opinion, they're all stupid and don't exist in my campaigns. Easy.

For those confused on how DDN's modular rules might work, this may provide some insight: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/11/the-world-of-darkness-shines-when-it-abandons-canon

@mikemearls: Uhhh... do you really not see all the 3e/4e that's basically the entire core system?

 

It is entirely unnecessary to denigrate someone else's approach to gaming in order to validate your own.

I'm pretty sure non samurai didn't carry katanas. It was punishable by death and all

Ninja used what is known as a Ninja To, or just a To. It was a nondescript, straight blade sword. But generally they used whatever they could get their hands on, because they were commoners more often than not.



I'd also like to add that ninja actually didn't carry blades most of the time.  Steel was too valuable to waste on expendable killers. Tongue Out
3.5 always used the bastard sword for the Katana, IIRC.
I'm pretty sure non samurai didn't carry katanas. It was punishable by death and all

Ninja used what is known as a Ninja To, or just a To. It was a nondescript, straight blade sword. But generally they used whatever they could get their hands on, because they were commoners more often than not.



I'd also like to add that ninja actually didn't carry blades most of the time.  Steel was too valuable to waste on expendable killers. 



"Ninja" didn't carry anything, really. They used whatever was necessary for the job. Their actual name was Shinobi-no-mono. That just happens to share the same characters as nin and ja, so an Edo period playwright decided it was easier to say. Thus, ninja. He used black suits against a black background to indicate invisibility, which hollywood then picked up and thus, the black suited "ninja". :P

Most of the western vision of them couldn't be further from the truth. 
Historical ninja were more guerilla fighters than uber elite assassins.

 I can stand the class perosnally in any ediiton of D&D. Play a fighter, Rogue or Fighter/Rogue and use a bastard sword and shrt sword and rename them if you like. The Katana was a better sword than the avergae sword used in Europe but probably wasn't as good as Europes best swords which used the same forging technique but had better quality steel. Damascus steel weapons were some of the best blades around, along with Toledo steel. Damascus steel blades had an impurity in the ore though which resulted in swords of excellent quality.

2nd ed Katanas were a 1d10 weapon and had speed factor 4 while Pathfinder they are an exotic weapon 1d8/18-20 crit and they also ive a bonus to coup de grace attacks.  Suffice to say I do not allow either one in game.

3.0 FRCS had the Sabre. It was basically a long sword that gave you +1 to hit while mounted.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

 The Katana was a better sword than the avergae sword used in Europe but probably wasn't as good as Europes vest swprds which used the same forging technique but had better quality steel. 



Actually, no, they didn't use the same forging technique *because* the European steel was better. The only reason the katana had the forging technique that it did was because the ore was crap. That's it.

No sword is necessarily better than any other sword; as with most things, it is the arm wielding it that determines its strength.

For those confused on how DDN's modular rules might work, this may provide some insight: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/11/the-world-of-darkness-shines-when-it-abandons-canon

@mikemearls: Uhhh... do you really not see all the 3e/4e that's basically the entire core system?

 

It is entirely unnecessary to denigrate someone else's approach to gaming in order to validate your own.

I'm down with the inclusion of sabre over katana.

LOL An urgrosh or a spiked chain are fine but some of you have an issue with katana's? How about a cestus, something not really seen outside of greek/roman settings? Or a blowgun that's mostly eastern/native users? Heck, bolas doesn't sound too european either.

Feel free to swap names out in your game, but leave the base name that everyone knows. Tongue Out 




First, I have no problem with the katana for folks who want to use it; the only thing I object to, re: the katana is the fanboy worship that "OMG it's the bestest sword EVAR!"
I don't think that's the case here. The game as-is makes the katana the most damaging finesse weapon and it fits an eastern character theme. It's not 'I want katana's to be the bestest weapon ever!', it's 'the best weapon for that type of character is a katana, so I want it."

In regards to the urgrosh and spiked chain (and double axe, and double sword): personal opinion, they're all stupid and don't exist in my campaigns. Easy.


Well there WERE/ARE weapons that fill the same space as these weapons. There was the russian flail what was pretty much a spiked chain. The double sword, double axe and urgrosh are found in asian weapons. See below for pictures. Now I can see you exclude them if you don't like them (don't fit setting), but I can't if you are saying they don't make sense to have them as options in the game. The people that use them don't think they are stupid.
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a...
www.martialartsmart.com/19-10.html
www.martialartsmart.com/45-87wu.html
www.martialartsmart.com/45-84wu.html
www.martialartsmart.com/45-80.html






In regards to the urgrosh and spiked chain (and double axe, and double sword): personal opinion, they're all stupid and don't exist in my campaigns. Easy.


Well there WERE/ARE weapons that fill the same space as these weapons. There was the russian flail what was pretty much a spiked chain. The double sword, double axe and urgrosh are found in asian weapons. See below for pictures. Now I can see you exclude them if you don't like them (don't fit setting), but I can't if you are saying they don't make sense to have them as options in the game. The people that use them don't think they are stupid.
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a...
www.martialartsmart.com/19-10.html
www.martialartsmart.com/45-87wu.html
www.martialartsmart.com/45-84wu.html
www.martialartsmart.com/45-80.html


*snort*
One of those links is to a weapon from Star Trek, dude. Somehow, I don't think that they're the most trustworthy people around when it comes to the authenticity of weaponry. ;)










*snort*
One of those links is to a weapon from Star Trek, dude. Somehow, I don't think that they're the most trustworthy people around when it comes to the authenticity of weaponry. ;)




And authenticity is important when discussing a fantasy game ... why?
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
In regards to the urgrosh and spiked chain (and double axe, and double sword): personal opinion, they're all stupid and don't exist in my campaigns. Easy.


Well there WERE/ARE weapons that fill the same space as these weapons. There was the russian flail what was pretty much a spiked chain. The double sword, double axe and urgrosh are found in asian weapons. See below for pictures. Now I can see you exclude them if you don't like them (don't fit setting), but I can't if you are saying they don't make sense to have them as options in the game. The people that use them don't think they are stupid.
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a...
www.martialartsmart.com/19-10.html
www.martialartsmart.com/45-87wu.html
www.martialartsmart.com/45-84wu.html
www.martialartsmart.com/45-80.html


*snort*
One of those links is to a weapon from Star Trek, dude. Somehow, I don't think that they're the most trustworthy people around when it comes to the authenticity of weaponry. ;)










The tae kuk bear is a weapon that is used in korean martial arts, NOT a klingon weapon. They've been around much longer than startrek.
  www.taekukmusul.com/HQ/SURENBOK.htm

What about sword-chucks.


Maybe they should rename the Katana - perhaps call it that anatak.  Would everyone be happy then?

More seriously - is the problem that A) a weapon with the stats given for the katana exists in the game, B)  their take on the Katana doesn't match your opinion of what a katana really is, or C) the fact that they choose to put a weapon in the game with an asian name.

Carl
What about sword-chucks.


Maybe they should rename the Katana - perhaps call it that anatak.  Would everyone be happy then?

More seriously - is the problem that A) a weapon with the stats given for the katana exists in the game, B)  their take on the Katana doesn't match your opinion of what a katana really is, or C) the fact that they choose to put a weapon in the game with an asian name.

Carl

From what I've seen, it seems to be C. And I can understand that to a point. Some people just LOVE katana's just like some people just LOVE twin scimitar wielding drow and run it into the ground. Had they called it an Estoc (two handed pointy, non-edged sword used to hit weak areas in plate) instead, I think you'd see a LOT less ire.

I'd rather they get rid of the katana, as it's just a a curved blade longsword or two handed scimitar.
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