A little help making a well informed decision about a leader build, please.

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Hey all,
Just to start out i would like to say thank you all for the help you've given me over the years.

My home group will be starting up a new campaign soon and i've been drafted into playing the leader, which i have never played and have no trouble giving a chance. I usually am the defender, as standing on the frontline protecting my allies and bringing pain to my foes is where i gravitate.

We just finished up this seasons encounters so it will be nice to have all options available to make something fun and useful. We are by no means an op-group but i would like to be as good as i possibly can without out classing the rest of the party. My thinking is to play a really good leader and make my less than op companions even better at what they do.

My party is going to be as follows.
1. Str/Cha/Dex Thanborn Barbarian. Dragonborn with Charge Package and buffing/leader support.
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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Shamash Blakhart, level 10
Dragonborn, Barbarian
Build: Thaneborn Barbarian
Feral Might Option: Thaneborn Triumph
Dragonborn Racial Power Option: Dragon Breath
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Strength
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Fire
Inherent Bonuses
Dragon Totem Warrior (+2 to Endurance)
Theme: Firecrafter

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 20, CON 12, DEX 14, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 17

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 11, DEX 14, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 14


AC: 23 Fort: 24 Ref: 20 Will: 20
HP: 81 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 21

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +10, Athletics +14, Endurance +12, Intimidate +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Bluff +8, Diplomacy +8, Dungeoneering +5, Heal +5, History +7, Insight +5, Nature +5, Perception +5, Religion +5, Stealth +6, Streetwise +8, Thievery +6

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Firecrafter Attack: Blazing Corona
Dragonborn Racial Power: Dragon Breath
Barbarian Feature: Roar of Triumph
Barbarian Feature: Rage Strike
Barbarian Attack 1: Howling Strike
Barbarian Attack 1: Recuperating Strike
Barbarian Attack 1: Vault the Fallen
Barbarian Attack 1: Life Thane Rage
Barbarian Utility 2: Bloodthirsty Resurgence
Barbarian Attack 3: Blood Strike
Barbarian Attack 5: Ancient Berserkers' Rage
Dragonborn Utility 6: Dragon's Dive
Firecrafter Attack 7: Lesser Roaring Flames
Barbarian Attack 9: Black Dragon Rage
Barbarian Utility 10: Howl of the Alpha Wolf

FEATS
Level 1: Hurl Breath
Level 2: Two-Handed Weapon Expertise
Level 4: Bolstering Breath
Level 6: Weapon Proficiency (Mordenkrad)
Level 8: Powerful Charge
Level 10: Arcane Prodigy

ITEMS
Vanguard Mordenkrad +1 x1
Bestial Hide Armor +1 x1
Horned Helm (heroic tier) x1
Badge of the Berserker +1 x1
Adventurer's Kit
Sunrod
Vial Bandolier
Potion of Feyspeak
Potion of Water Walking
Potion of Elven Fleetness
Potion of Healing
Trackless Ashes
Potion of Eladrin Shape
Totem
Shovel
Climber's Kit
Rod Implement
====== End ======




2. Wis/Dex Pursuit Avenger. Drow who worships the Raven Queen, so no power of skill.
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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 10
Drow, Avenger
Avenger's Censure Option: Censure of Pursuit
Darkfire Option: Darkfire Wisdom
Theme: Bloodsworn

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 13, DEX 20, INT 10, WIS 20, CHA 11

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 13, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 16, CHA 11


AC: 26 Fort: 17 Ref: 21 Will: 23
HP: 81 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 20

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +15, Endurance +11, Religion +10, Stealth +17

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +5, Athletics +4, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +10, Heal +10, History +5, Insight +10, Intimidate +9, Nature +10, Perception +10, Streetwise +5, Thievery +10

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Bloodsworn Utility: Bloodied Determination
Drow Racial Power: Darkfire
Avenger Feature: Abjure Undead
Avenger Feature: Divine Guidance
Avenger Feature: Oath of Enmity
Avenger Attack 1: Bond of Pursuit
Avenger Attack 1: Overwhelming Strike
Avenger Attack 1: Whirlwind Charge
Avenger Attack 1: Wings of Light
Avenger Utility 2: Silver Shadow
Avenger Attack 3: Bound by Fate
Avenger Attack 5: Dance of Flame
Avenger Utility 6: Fortifying Chant
Avenger Attack 7: Inexorable Pursuit
Avenger Attack 9: Shadow Tricks
Avenger Utility 10: River of Life

FEATS
Level 1: Heavy Blade Expertise
Level 2: Improved Armor of Faith
Level 4: Melee Training (Wisdom)
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 8: Superior Will
Level 10: Unarmored Agility

ITEMS
Oathblade Greatsword +2 x1
Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) x1
Holy Symbol
Adventurer's Kit
====== End ======




3. Str/Con/Dex (Fighter)Knight. Svirfneblin who wields a War Pick. Not opped in the least and frankly not too good at defending. Carry over from encounters so needs to be reworked, alot.
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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Polliwopple Gerkin, level 8
Svirfneblin, Fighter (Knight)
Knight Option: Shield Finesse
Knight Weapon Specialization Option: Staggering Hammer
Inherent Bonuses
Longbridge Local (Arcana class skill)
Theme: Earthforger

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 20, CON 15, DEX 14, INT 12, WIS 12, CHA 10

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 14, DEX 14, INT 11, WIS 10, CHA 10


AC: 25 Fort: 23 Ref: 20 Will: 17
HP: 72 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 18

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +10, Athletics +12, Dungeoneering +12, Endurance +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Heal +5, History +5, Insight +5, Intimidate +4, Nature +5, Perception +7, Religion +5, Stealth +4, Streetwise +4, Thievery +4

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Earthforger Attack: Stone Panoply
Svirfneblin Utility: Stone Camouflage
Fighter Attack: Battle Guardian
Multiple Class Utility: Defender Aura
Fighter Utility: Hammer Hands
Fighter Utility: Battle Wrath
Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike
Fighter Utility: Cleaving Assault
Arcana Utility 2: Cave Sight
Fighter Utility 6: Rapid Advance
Fighter Utility 8: Shield Block

FEATS
Shield Finesse
Level 1: Pick Expertise
Level 2: World Serpent's Grasp
Level 4: Battle Berserker
Level 6: Improved Defenses
Level 8: Berserk Vitality

ITEMS
Plate Armor x1
Adventurer's Kit
Heavy Shield x1
Javelin
Climber's Kit
War Pick x1
Amulet of Protection +1 x1
====== End ======




4. A sometimes at the table sometimes skyped in controller of some kind. Leaning towards a Wizard or Invoker. I may need to build this PC or offer alot of help in it's constuction.

5. DM created whole filler companion character. This guy will fill in some of the "gaps" the party is lacking.

So i will be the 5th actual PC at the table.
We are starting out at 10th level and we have a few "restictions".
4200 gp to spend on magic items, we will be using the inherent bonus system.
Try not to lock ideas into a specific Paragon Path.
(Self imposed and probably wouldn't fly at our table) No MC Cleric for Battle Clerics Lore.
So i'm looking for some suggestions and ideas for a build to fit with this motley group to help bring out the best in them, with what i have to work with, and really make them shine. I know already that i'll be doing all the role playing and "real" decision making. 

Sorry for this being such a long post. Party included for you to see what i'll be working with. Not a whole lot i can do with my companions. I will make suggestions where they are needed to them.
Killswitch?
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

That's the best leader I've seen in action. Though most of the switch series are supposed to be pretty good. 
Oy! Those are some fairly poorly built characters from charop perspective. At lower levels I'd say fine, but at level 10, you need an actual striker.
Oy! Those are some fairly poorly built characters from charop perspective. At lower levels I'd say fine, but at level 10, you need an actual striker.


Yeah i'm positive you are correct as far as them being poorly built strikers but that aside any advice for me in making a leader. My thoughts are for a ranged focused something or other that enables and buffs. I saw the Flameswitch Build and thought that might work. 
Killswitch or some derivate using for example the Battle Engineer PP should be a good decision as two of the characters, one of them striker, have good MBAs. The barbarian should suffice as nova striker from L13 on. If he is taking the right powers, that is. Ranged focussed, enables, buffs all the way.

If the group stays as unoptimized as it is, more healing might be needed. A plain warlord should it be then.
Sorry if I wasn't clear, my advice is don't make a leader, make a striker. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken droppings. Let your DMPC fill in the leader role. If you absolutely want some leadership, you could go with a hybrid striker leader with good ranged options since your party seems to be lacking that, maybe Ranger|Bard.
Why aren't you considering playing the controller? It fixes ranged, controller, and ought to be good at giving this party enough time to beat things down.
A War Chanter Valorous Bard with a Songbow will help this group out immensely. 
Sorry if I wasn't clear, my advice is don't make a leader, make a striker. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken droppings. Let your DMPC fill in the leader role. If you absolutely want some leadership, you could go with a hybrid striker leader with good ranged options since your party seems to be lacking that, maybe Ranger|Bard.


To start something along the lines of  Elf(Dex/Wis) Sehanine moon bow dedicate Ranger|Bard. Taking the decent powers from the bard side like RotBSB and others that escape my memory at this moment.
Any other thoughts.
I was also looking into the Hybrid|Warlord options such as Flameswitch or try a Warlock|Warlord.
Edit: Sorry, Elf Bard Ranger is DEX/WIS and i would need DEX/CHA  primaries. 
Why aren't you considering playing the controller? It fixes ranged, controller, and ought to be good at giving this party enough time to beat things down.


I was going to go that route but another player REALLY wanted to try her hand, with my help, at building a good controller. She was playing one in are encounters sessions and wants to play a real controller. So the leader role was what was left for me which is not so bad. I was working on a few Warlord variants such as a Dragonborn brave lord and, yes, Eladrin Spiral Tactician Taclord. Thought switching to a more ranged focused leader would be better with every one ganging up in melee.
I could possibly go Runepriest since all will be mobbed up or a runepriest hybrid of some sort. 
The avenger made a couple of poor choices in power selection, but isn't terrible and his feats are all at least ok.  The barbarian made some bad power choices and is going to die easily with a 14 dex at level 10 with no investment in AC from what I can tell.  They all need some better items if this is what all they have at level 10 unless you are using inherent bonuses.

There are a lot of different options that could help this party out.  Warchanter or Warlord were already mentioned.  Something like a shaman/invoker or shaman/wizard could also help by putting another target on the front line while adding both leading and control.
A War Chanter Valorous Bard with a Songbow will help this group out immensely. 


Yeah, i was sort of copy pasting your build from the pre-gen thread. Thanks for that and i love that thread.  I wish my companions would actually read this forum more often but it is what it is. These PC's will work for the most part as part of our home group i'm just looking to help them out some. Posting to char-op is the only option anymore with the seperate forums gone now but i'm not looking for the most opped out character. Just looking for ideas.
I might consider a Striker|Leader build then. An Archer Ranger|Bard would work out well on a number of levels - Rhyme of the Bloodseeking Blade turns a melee attack into a miss. That'll be crazy good for your party.

Annie Oakley in my sig ought to work out well(and it doesn't have to be a Drow at all - that's really just a Dex/Cha race that works reasonably well - because RotBSB attacks reflex, having a relatively poor Cha isn't even that big of a deal.) 
I might consider a Striker|Leader build then. An Archer Ranger|Bard would work out well on a number of levels - Rhyme of the Bloodseeking Blade turns a melee attack into a miss. That'll be crazy good for your party.

Annie Oakley in my sig ought to work out well(and it doesn't have to be a Drow at all - that's really just a Dex/Cha race that works reasonably well - because RotBSB attacks reflex, having a relatively poor Cha isn't even that big of a deal.) 


Good idea, though I still think that War Chanter is better for this party. Just take your Bardic Virtue with Hybrid Talent and change the E11 for a class power with that feat I can never remember.
I might consider a Striker|Leader build then. An Archer Ranger|Bard would work out well on a number of levels - Rhyme of the Bloodseeking Blade turns a melee attack into a miss. That'll be crazy good for your party.

Annie Oakley in my sig ought to work out well(and it doesn't have to be a Drow at all - that's really just a Dex/Cha race that works reasonably well - because RotBSB attacks reflex, having a relatively poor Cha isn't even that big of a deal.) 


Yeah, Ranger|Bard might be my choice though a "Ranged" focused ValorBard/Warchanter could be more than doable.

I'll check out your Annie Oakley Build. How would a Halfling work for that build and do they bring anything worth while to the table. 

Good idea, though I still think that War Chanter is better for this party. Just take your Bardic Virtue with Hybrid Talent and change the E11 for a class power with that feat I can never remember.



Reserve Maneuver is the feat you're looking for.
I might consider a Striker|Leader build then. An Archer Ranger|Bard would work out well on a number of levels - Rhyme of the Bloodseeking Blade turns a melee attack into a miss. That'll be crazy good for your party.

Annie Oakley in my sig ought to work out well(and it doesn't have to be a Drow at all - that's really just a Dex/Cha race that works reasonably well - because RotBSB attacks reflex, having a relatively poor Cha isn't even that big of a deal.) 


Good idea, though I still think that War Chanter is better for this party. Just take your Bardic Virtue with Hybrid Talent and change the E11 for a class power with that feat I can never remember.


When i get a chance i'll build up a Bard and post it for advice. It most likely look alot like the build in the Pre-Gen thread.
Every time Annie Oakley is posted and given serious consideration, it's very tempting to label everyone involved "LSM"
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Every time Annie Oakley is posted and given serious consideration, it's very tempting to label everyone involved "LSM"


Since you didn't post in the original thread, entertain me and tell why that is?
There's really nothing it does that a fully fledged Bard, or hell, Bard|Warlock, Bard|Sorcerer, Ranger|Warlord, Ranger/Shaman, and probably a couple other combinations can't pull off but better. Action starved, Feat starved, (leading to) bad Defenses, no actual gain as a Striker, its leadership consists of "I have a Heal" and Mantle, and it makes absolutely no attempt to not provoke. It's missing a lot of Forest for it's Trees.

It's also clearly not updated, so I really think it's a bit egotistical to be self-linking it as much as MwaO has been doing. Has anyone other than him actually played it from 1-16?  The build, and the way it's presented in its thread are reminiscent of builds by langwiele from 4 years ago or the joke-oppers over in DPR kings, making no mention of defenses, only showing the Build at optimal levels as opposed to LDB/Auspex style by-level breakdowns, draws assumptions about Nova and DPR capacity that is only possible with specific class PartyOp, and assumes the DM is tactically inept tofu.

I dislike calling out a regular as a LSM, since the last time I did it was with Lang and it drove him off the boards, but MwaO's builds are just as much trash as Langs or melloreds. Good, really optimized builds, fix their holes, these builds don't even admit they have them, it's not Optimization, more like Foxtimzation.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Well here he is, my less than stellar leader for my un-opped party. Pretty much lifted from the Pre-Gen thread because...well, those really were some of the better options.

Thanks to Matyr and Svendj.

I went Tiefling for access to some of their feats though we could have easily been a Half-Elf for Dilletante and Versatile Master, i really don't know which would be better. Any further thoughts on the build would be greatly appreciated. 

Show


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
The Count, level 10
Tiefling, Bard
Build: Valorous Bard
Bardic Virtue Option: Virtue of Cunning
Signs of Influence Option: Welcome Guest
Signs of Influence Option: Travel in Style
Inherent Bonuses
Officer Who Came Out of Retirement (Officer Who Came Out of Retirement Benefit)
Theme: Sensate

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 20, DEX 13, INT 11, WIS 10, CHA 20

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 16, DEX 13, INT 11, WIS 10, CHA 16


AC: 23 Fort: 22 Ref: 19 Will: 25
HP: 77 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 19

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +12, Athletics +10, Bluff +19, Diplomacy +17, Insight +12, Religion +12

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +11, Dungeoneering +11, Endurance +17, Heal +11, History +12, Intimidate +16, Nature +11, Perception +13, Stealth +13, Streetwise +16, Thievery +11

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Tiefling Racial Power: Infernal Wrath
Bard Feature: Majestic Word
Bard Feature: Words of Friendship
Bard Attack 1: Staggering Note
Bard Attack 1: Jinx Shot
Bard Attack 1: Blunder
Bard Attack 1: Arrow of Warning
Bard Utility 2: Moment of Escape
Bard Attack 3: Rhyme of the Blood-Seeking Blade
Bard Attack 3: Echoing Weapon
Bard Attack 5: Song of Discord
Bard Utility 6: Revitalizing Incantation
Bard Attack 9: Counterpoint
Bard Utility 10: Mantle of Unity

FEATS
Level 1: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Moonbow Dedicate
Level 2: Battle Song Expertise
Level 4: Bard of All Trades
Level 6: Imperious Majesty
Level 8: Superior Will
Level 10: Resourceful Leader

ITEMS
Ritual Book
Glib Limerick
Comrades' Succor
Targeting Shortbow +1 x1
Amulet of Resolution +1 x1
Ioun's Revelation (level 3)
Song of Sustenance
Song of Restfulness
Veteran's Chainmail +1 x1
====== End ======





When all is said and done i may just wind up making a striker of some sort and let the DMPC fill in as a full leader/support. 
Personally I would find this board extremely boring if it was only about the bleeding edge of optimization.

This board is not here to cater to a single person's opinions of what is "trash" and what isn't. Some builds are certainly less optimized, but still point out interesting tricks or synergies that are the reason some of us find this topic interesting in the first place.

And people are allowed to tout their builds all they want. If the suggestions are so weak, you're free to post something better.
It's also clearly not updated, so I really think it's a bit egotistical to be self-linking it as much as MwaO has been doing. Has anyone other than him actually played it from 1-16?  The build, and the way it's presented in its thread are reminiscent of builds by langwiele from 4 years ago or the joke-oppers over in DPR kings, making no mention of defenses, only showing the Build at optimal levels as opposed to LDB/Auspex style by-level breakdowns, draws assumptions about Nova and DPR capacity that is only possible with specific class PartyOp, and assumes the DM is tactically inept tofu.

I dislike calling out a regular as a LSM, since the last time I did it was with Lang and it drove him off the boards, but MwaO's builds are just as much trash as Langs or melloreds. Good, really optimized builds, fix their holes, these builds don't even admit they have them, it's not Optimization, more like Foxtimzation.



Right...

Annie Oakley has roughly the exact same feat progression that Shoot to Thrill has. She wants the same items. She has about the same defenses except she can gain total concealment vs. getting a reroll. She deals with being in close range the same way that Shoot to Thrill does, except again, she can gain total concealment and do Mantle of Unity. When acting that way, she has roughly the same capabilities as Shoot to Thrill does at roughly the same levels at a slight loss of damage. I make the exact same assumptions that LDB does about what is possible. Heck, LDB took the same feats in order for a while when he was using a Crossbow when Elves couldn't get sneak attack with a bow any longer. Except she can toss down Mantle of Unity, has a heal, and is a party face instead of a healer.

Of course, I call this all out and literally mention Shoot to Thrill as being the heart of the build - if it wasn't sufficiently clear to you, you could have asked in the build thread and I would have made it more clear. If you can't make it work or figure it out, you should have roughly the same problems with Shoot to Thrill in Heroic.

I haven't made any claims that's she's one heck of a leader or better than Shoot to Thrill at being a Striker. She isn't. But when one is in a party that desperately needs a solid ranged striker for a non-CharOp group(and strangely enough, I can identify those posts based on how the questioner asks it) and no one wants to be the leader, it makes a good character, probably too good of a character just as Shoot to Thrill is too good for the typical group.  And I know some regulars have issues with Shoot to Thrill as being insufficiently optimized compared to 'modern' builds. But a lot of the time, one of the things about having actual system mastery is recognizing that posters often won't like what happens when they use a 'modern' CharOp build in a campaign not expecting it.

I have a simple suggestion for you Zathris. Next time you have a problem with a build, let that person actually know what specific problems(and not 'oh, minor action problems', point out the situation where you think there will be too many minor actions needed) you have with it. Rather than being snarky as a reflex, try being helpful first. And do it in the relevant thread, which in this case would be the build thread.

People might actually respect your views rather than putting you on ignore.
Well here he is, my less than stellar leader for my un-opped party. Pretty much lifted from the Pre-Gen thread because...well, those really were some of the better options.

Thanks to Matyr and Svendj.

I went Tiefling for access to some of their feats though we could have easily been a Half-Elf for Dilletante and Versatile Master, i really don't know which would be better. Any further thoughts on the build would be greatly appreciated. 


Tiefling is of course also awesome. Hooray for Imperious Majesty and Secrets of Belial. 

Virtue of Cunning should be Valor, I assume? Or will be retrained at 11 so you can take War Chanter?

If you're taking Sensate as a theme, you also got to have an Eager Hero's Tattoo for a +3 power bonus to skills out of combat. +3 power bonus, +2 item bonus, +3 feat bonus to untrained, I don't think you ever need to worry about skill checks ^__^

If you want to use melee powers too, consider getting ki focus proficiency (Elemental Initiate or a multiclass) so you can easily switch between melee and ranged weapons, or use a thrown melee weapon like a dagger or javelin. 
From my personal experience I play some builds similar to some of MWaO, and they often are more practical than a lot of char op builds. theymay seem less perfect because they are for real play. I am a particular fan of the Ioun Stone Grey Marker which is admittedly a little weak in heroic but once it hits paragon is stellar DM annoyance.
Sorry if I wasn't clear, my advice is don't make a leader, make a striker. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken droppings. Let your DMPC fill in the leader role. If you absolutely want some leadership, you could go with a hybrid striker leader with good ranged options since your party seems to be lacking that, maybe Ranger|Bard.


To start something along the lines of  Elf(Dex/Wis) Sehanine moon bow dedicate Ranger|Bard. Taking the decent powers from the bard side like RotBSB and others that escape my memory at this moment.
Any other thoughts.
I was also looking into the Hybrid|Warlord options such as Flameswitch or try a Warlock|Warlord.
Edit: Sorry, Elf Bard Ranger is DEX/WIS and i would need DEX/CHA  primaries. 



Dead Elf for Dex/Cha?

Cry Havoc!  And let slip the hogs of war!

Well here he is, my less than stellar leader for my un-opped party. Pretty much lifted from the Pre-Gen thread because...well, those really were some of the better options.

Thanks to Matyr and Svendj.

I went Tiefling for access to some of their feats though we could have easily been a Half-Elf for Dilletante and Versatile Master, i really don't know which would be better. Any further thoughts on the build would be greatly appreciated. 


Tiefling is of course also awesome. Hooray for Imperious Majesty and Secrets of Belial. 

Virtue of Cunning should be Valor, I assume? Or will be retrained at 11 so you can take War Chanter?

If you're taking Sensate as a theme, you also got to have an Eager Hero's Tattoo for a +3 power bonus to skills out of combat. +3 power bonus, +2 item bonus, +3 feat bonus to untrained, I don't think you ever need to worry about skill checks ^__^

If you want to use melee powers too, consider getting ki focus proficiency (Elemental Initiate or a multiclass) so you can easily switch between melee and ranged weapons, or use a thrown melee weapon like a dagger or javelin. 


Thanks for the catch on the Virtue. That indeed should be Valor for Warchanter.
I'll need to check out that Tattoo. I didn't realize how rediculously high my skill scores would be.Surprised
I thought about the Ki Focus route but i just though the Sehanine/ short bow angle fit better. Trying to keep some roleplay flavor in the build and that just fit.

I was also Working on a Half-Elf(Matrim Cauthon inspired) build that utilized a Farbond Spell Glaive. Had a few "Luck/Unluck" based powers and the seer theme and MC Swordmge + ResLord. Though that build might have been better as a Ki focused build that used the glaive and daggers. Try to fit in quick draw and maybe MC monk instead of swordmage and grab starblade flurry(if that would work). Worship the Traveler and open up traveler's harlequin as a PP option. Wouldn't be terribly op but would fit with this crew of jokers.
Eager Hero tattoo is going to have to go on my item wish list for the future. Good Call.
One of my players recently came up with that. It means I can basically throw out the official table for skill DCs. 
The avenger made a couple of poor choices in power selection, but isn't terrible and his feats are all at least ok.  The barbarian made some bad power choices and is going to die easily with a 14 dex at level 10 with no investment in AC from what I can tell.  They all need some better items if this is what all they have at level 10 unless you are using inherent bonuses.

There are a lot of different options that could help this party out.  Warchanter or Warlord were already mentioned.  Something like a shaman/invoker or shaman/wizard could also help by putting another target on the front line while adding both leading and control.


Sorry i never really replied to this post.
Do you have any suggestions i could make to both the Barb and Avenger, while keeping in the constarints of what they are playing. I mean no "Play this instead" just some power and feat ideas. Also, yes we are playing with the inherant bonus system.

An unrelated question and should probably be posted in the build thread but i would really hat to be a Necromancer but any ideas on updating your Boo the Ghostrager Build or an how to pull off a Hybrid Version of that build. I kind of tried my hand for some funnsies and really have no idea if i made any good choices.
The Barbarian should definitely be a Rageblood instead. Also, I have no idea why he took Arcane Prodigy. He should take Battle Awareness instead.

An interesting possibility for a Dragonborn Barb is to take Honourable Blade at level 10. If he has lightning breath then Mark of Storm + Gouge + Polearm Momentum + Draconic Arrogance + Headsman's Chop will help with damage. Otherwise, if he prefers fire breath then he can switch to a Firewind Fullblade.
With all the random snark, I never did get to find out what "LSM" stands for.
With all the random snark, I never did get to find out what "LSM" stands for.



Low System Mastery
With all the random snark, I never did get to find out what "LSM" stands for.

To be historically accurate, it stands for "Low. System. Mastery."

Copy/Paste of a post of mine from a while back. Feel free to ignore the parts that don't make sense out of context.

LSM is a CharOp meme started by LDB. It applies to posters who used declarative statements (not a question) were proven wrong, and ignorantly refused to admit it and kept trying to bludgeon people with their point. I've yet to see it used inappropriately... though I'm sure the ignorant people who it is being applied to see it differently, but as with many things in life people who know more get to dismiss the opinion of people who know less. Dismissing an ignorant person for being ignorant and telling them you are doing so because they are ignorant is perfectly reasonable. Unless you think standing around debating with someone who insists the Earth is flat is a reasonable use of your time, as opposed to telling them they are ignorant and ought to educate themselves.

I believe you'll find that the person who started the meme, LDB, is very reasonable when people ask questions (you can prove it to yourself by checking any of his... 7 handbooks?), and not so reasonable when the same person is posting provably incorrect bullshit for the third or fourth time.

As for post count, the only person I've seen do that is Litigation. And he dismissed posters who had a low post count in CharOp. Not in general. People tend to post in forums they read. It is at least a semi-reasonable assumption that someone who does not post in CharOp is not familiar with game math as, frankly, this is the only forum that does it extensively. Especially since the person wasn't familiar with the game math. Though as someone who has lurked extensively on various forums it isn't always an accurate assumption.

How is this for manners: posting incorrect information is wasting several people's time. The people who have to correct you, the people who might read it and believe you and then have to be corrected, the people who have to correct them. To continue to post it wastes even more time. In a general sense I'll believe you'll find that the people being dismissed are precisely the people that make this forum not worth being in. So, sure, if the people with Low. System. Mastery. stop posting incorrect statements (as opposed to questions, we like questions) the forum will indeed be a worthwhile expenditure of your time. Best way of doing that is making sure their bullshit is called out.

The above is, in fact, the reason CharOp is a worthwhile resource at all to begin with.
Yeah, Mwao, me being mean and you misrepresenting LDB's build totally justifies you repeatedly posting your mis-matched 'average' build as a suggestion for an optimized leader/striker.

When I criticized Grey Marker for not being versatile, not really being viable in heroic, and you for making claims based on brash strike and being multi-target viable (which is basically the same as a Sorcerer posting ESB damage and saying it's multi-target), you countered by saying it's perfectly viable by using Battlemind stuff in heroic and by pointing out the usefulness of Brash Strike against Elites, Solos, and toward the end of fights. Utter goalpost shifting and fallacy of generalization. When Illusion of Hope was criticized for choosing FoH over DO, you mostly let Auspex carry the argument except when demonstrating your LSM by saying you'd AP a control power to increase your own hit rate and that of your allies (for clarity, allies attacking your controlled and penalized targets instead of the active unhindered non-targets is a tactical disaster).

Neither of these are bad characters when it comes down to it (and I rather like Chordswitch). What's bad is your ability to respond to criticism with anything other than a fallacy argument and stubbornly plodding on, and repeatedly linking your own builds for any situation they might fit into.

There's no comission earned from having someone play your characters, there's no award for post count, it's just shameless self-promotion for the sake of your own ego and it's tiring to watch.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Yeah, Mwao, me being mean and you misrepresenting LDB's build totally justifies you repeatedly posting your mis-matched 'average' build as a suggestion for an optimized leader/striker.



I don't find you mean. I find you to be someone who prefers to be snarky and passive-aggressive over being clear.

If it isn't absolutely clear, I took LDB's build and whenever possible, took feats at the exact same point he did. Shoot to Thrill took Novice Power at 12th? So does this build(which is not as clear as it ought to be). It does similar(if less) damage throughout the entire build. The feats in heroic are quite literally the feats that LDB took when it wasn't clear that Treetop Archer would work with Sneak Attack any longer.

When I criticized Grey Marker for not being versatile, not really being viable in heroic, and you for making claims based on brash strike and being multi-target viable (which is basically the same as a Sorcerer posting ESB damage and saying it's multi-target), you countered by saying it's perfectly viable by using Battlemind stuff in heroic and by pointing out the usefulness of Brash Strike against Elites, Solos, and toward the end of fights. Utter goalpost shifting and fallacy of generalization.



I didn't say it was crazy good in Heroic. It is perfectly viable because it is basically a Battlemind with the ability to Combat Challenge - if someone tries to escape it, it gets to swing twice at level 1, regardless of whether or not it hits with Combat Challenge - no other build does that in low Heroic. And Eldritch Strike can have some interesting effects if used at the right moment.

Is it super-opp'd Defender in Heroic? Nope. Is it viable? Sure. There's only so much optimizing one can do before 7th level and at 7th level, it gets Lightning Rush. And are you actually criticizing how versatile it is in Paragon? I can't tell.

When Illusion of Hope was criticized for choosing FoH over DO, you mostly let Auspex carry the argument except when demonstrating your LSM by saying you'd AP a control power to increase your own hit rate and that of your allies (for clarity, allies attacking your controlled and penalized targets instead of the active unhindered non-targets is a tactical disaster).



First time I've ever heard someone call focusing fire with the benefit of +Int to hit as a tactical disaster. Auspex got why this worked, even if you apparently don't. This is especially true for random tables where some players don't know how to focus fire, but would never in a million years pass up a minimum of a +5 to hit. That there are options to turn it into death-locked control doesn't mean that's the only use for it.

What's bad is your ability to respond to criticism with anything other than a fallacy argument and stubbornly plodding on, and repeatedly linking your own builds for any situation they might fit into. 



Your criticism usually values being snarky or being passive-aggressive over being clear as to what your problem with an option is. Or being way over the top - look at the example right above where you seem to call focusing fire with a +Int to hit a tactical disaster.

So if I don't respond in the way that you'd like to your criticism, perhaps you ought to favor being clear and concise.

There's no comission earned from having someone play your characters, there's no award for post count, it's just shameless self-promotion for the sake of your own ego and it's tiring to watch.



Then put me on ignore if you're so tired of it and recommend to whoever complains to you about my self-linking that they do the same. There are two reasons why I generally link to my builds:
I understand them and know exactly how to answer questions if they like it or want to play it. I honestly couldn't care either way.
If they don't like the build for whatever reason, they're usually significantly more clear on their next post as to what they really want.

That 2nd part is the real reason. Because that's a lot more efficient than being snarky and passive-aggressively scaring a new poster off the boards by accusing them of demanding too much from poor CharOps.
Looking to take a little break from the bickering and get back to some advice. While i like the Bard i built i decided to keep tinkering.

Based on the fact that the other players are going to play what they play, and they have made some changes to their characters, i decided to heed some of Mengu's advice and tried to build a leader/striker. I went the Cleric|Ranger route and would now like some commentary and advice on tweaking this build. I'm going to focus my attacks on the Frost Package inorder to boost my striker half.

Looking for
Power commentary
Feat suggestions
Item suggestions
Paragon Path options
(Everything else is the same. Low-op party, Inherant Bonuses, 4200 gp to spend on items.) 
Show


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Theren, level 10
Elf, Cleric/Ranger
Hybrid Cleric Option: Battle Cleric's Lore
Hybrid Ranger Option: Hybrid Ranger Fortitude
Inherent Bonuses
Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)
Theme: Sarifal Feywarden

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 20, CON 10, DEX 15, INT 8, WIS 17, CHA 10

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 18, CON 10, DEX 13, INT 8, WIS 13, CHA 10


AC: 27 Fort: 24 Ref: 19 Will: 23
HP: 77 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 19

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +13, Endurance +11, Heal +14, Perception +16, Religion +10

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +4, Athletics +10, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +8, History +4, Insight +8, Intimidate +5, Nature +12, Stealth +7, Streetwise +5, Thievery +7

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Sarifal Feywarden Utility: Sarifal's Blessing
Elf Racial Power: Elven Accuracy
Cleric Utility: Healing Word
Hunter's Quarry Power: Hunter's Quarry
Cleric Attack 1: Righteous Brand
Ranger Attack 1: Twin Strike
Cleric Attack 1: Mighty Hew
Cleric Attack 1: Weapon of Astral Flame
Ranger Utility 2: Invigorating Stride
Ranger Attack 3: Ruffling Sting
Ranger Attack 5: Snarling Wolf Stance
Cleric Utility 6: Bastion of Health
Ranger Attack 7: Lashing Leaves
Ranger Attack 9: Attacks on the Run
Cleric Utility 10: Word of Vigor

FEATS
Level 1: Power of Skill
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Double sword)
Level 4: Light Blade Expertise
Level 6: Battle Awareness
Level 8: Superior Will
Level 10: Wintertouched

ITEMS
Spirit Fetch
Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (heroic tier)
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1
Frost Double sword +1 x1
Agile Scale Armor +1 x1
====== End ======



 
You might consider Disruptive Strike over Lashing Leaves. A low op party is going to get a lot less milage out of LL and you should have enough opportunties that you can negate an attack every encounter.
You might consider Disruptive Strike over Lashing Leaves. A low op party is going to get a lot less milage out of LL and you should have enough opportunties that you can negate an attack every encounter.


Good call on that. Helps pile on some out of turn damage.
I'm wondering about the cost effectiveness of Hybrid Talent Two-Weapon and Bastard Sword Prof. and then wielding two frost bastardswords with two shards. I would have to lose out on some good stuff like prime punisher and lightblade expertise/wintertouched as well as some items. Any thoughts?
Be better to HT for Prime Shot and take Prime Punisher/Called Shot. Same number of feats, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more damage. Cheaper to, since double-sword is one enchant to keep upgrading and only requires one shard.
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