## Double-Clone query

4 posts / 0 new
KyCygni
Joined Dec 2010
895 Posts
Theoretical idea - suppose a creature could become a copy of two creatures at once, or gain the text of two creatures at once, or anything similar. Now suppose that those two creatures have two mutually exclusive characteristic-defining abilities. For example:

Tarmogoyf
Maro

Could the rules handle this, and if so, what would happen as the creature resolved?

- - -

Suppose the creature essentially became a clone of each creature on the battlefield continuously, for example, it has the text: "~ has the abilities of each other creature on the battlefield.", and a third creature with a mutually exclusive characteristic-defining ability entered the battlefield, such as Geist-Honored Monk. Would it automatically revert to this creature's CDA, or would something else matter?
mjwhitfield1
Joined Aug 2009
321 Posts
I don't think that the rules, as currently exist, could handle this.  The essential problem is that the CDAs will static abilities that are on the same object and were granted by the same effect, so they will have the same time stamp.  Therefore there is currently no way to determine which order to apply them (assuming that neither depends on the other).

However it might be possible to update the rules to handle such abilities in a way that won't prove too disruptive to the way the rules currently work.  One solution might be to have the controlling player break ties in a similar way to how the active player breaks ties when one or more objects would gain a timestamp at the same time.  Something like: '613.6h If an object would gain a static ability that would have the same time as a one or more existing static abilities it gains a time stamp immediately after those abilities.  613.6j If an object would gain two or more static abilities at the same time and those effects would have the same time stamp the player who controls that object determines their timestamp order at that time.'

Relevant Rules

613.6. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is usually done using a timestamp system. An effect with an earlier timestamp is applied before an effect with a later timestamp.

613.6a A continuous effect generated by a static ability has the same timestamp as the object the static ability is on, or the timestamp of the effect that created the ability, whichever is later.

613.6b A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability receives a timestamp at the time it's created.

613.6c An object's timestamp is the time it entered the zone it's currently in, unless it's an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that's attached to another object or player, or it's a face-up plane card, phenomenon card, or scheme card.

613.6d If an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification becomes attached to an object or player, the Aura, Equipment, or Fortification receives a new timestamp at that time.

613.6e A face-up plane card, phenomenon card, or scheme card receives a timestamp at the time it's turned face up.

613.6f A face-up vanguard card receives a timestamp at the beginning of the game.

613.6g If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, the active player determines their timestamp order at that time.

alextfish
Joined Mar 2004
1832 Posts

Somebody on Tumblr replied with this claim:

alsadius said: To give an actual answer, a creature with multiple P/T has each of them independently. It basically works out to having the sum of its powers(because it deals each of them) and the lowest of its toughnesses(because damage>any toughness = death).

It's amusing to have someone tell me this, because this is basically the same as a theory I advanced quite a few years ago on ToothyWiki

Consider a Volrath's Shapeshifter (or Unstable Shapeshifter ), taking the form of a Death-Mask Duplicant, imprinting at least two creature cards, and then turning into a Duplicant... The creature ends up with multiple values for its power/toughness. :D This is handled like the way split cards' characteristics are: Anything that asks for the value of its power or toughness gets multiple answers; anything that asks if its power or toughness gets a yes answer if any of them do. So if I end up with a Duplicant imprinted with both Grizzly Bears and Visara the Dreadful, then its P/T is "2/2 and 5/5". So in combat it will deal "2 and 5" damage, for a total of 7. But if its dealt 2 damage, the state-based effects will ask "Does this creature have damage greater than or equal to its toughness on it", be told "yes" since that's true for one of its P/T values, and the creature will die.

Note that this was before the Linked Abilities rules. You can't do this in black-bordered Magic at the moment, as far as I'm aware. I think playing with copy effects and S.N.O.T. is the best you can do.
KyCygni
Joined Dec 2010
895 Posts

Somebody on Tumblr replied with this claim:

alsadius said: To give an actual answer, a creature with multiple P/T has each of them independently. It basically works out to having the sum of its powers(because it deals each of them) and the lowest of its toughnesses(because damage>any toughness = death).

It's amusing to have someone tell me this, because this is basically the same as a theory I advanced quite a few years ago on ToothyWiki

Consider a Volrath's Shapeshifter (or Unstable Shapeshifter ), taking the form of a Death-Mask Duplicant, imprinting at least two creature cards, and then turning into a Duplicant... The creature ends up with multiple values for its power/toughness. :D This is handled like the way split cards' characteristics are: Anything that asks for the value of its power or toughness gets multiple answers; anything that asks if its power or toughness gets a yes answer if any of them do. So if I end up with a Duplicant imprinted with both Grizzly Bears and Visara the Dreadful, then its P/T is "2/2 and 5/5". So in combat it will deal "2 and 5" damage, for a total of 7. But if its dealt 2 damage, the state-based effects will ask "Does this creature have damage greater than or equal to its toughness on it", be told "yes" since that's true for one of its P/T values, and the creature will die.

Note that this was before the Linked Abilities rules. You can't do this in black-bordered Magic at the moment, as far as I'm aware. I think playing with copy effects and S.N.O.T. is the best you can do.

Thank you, this is great stuff.