Mana web interrumped?

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While there's the Mana Web on the battlefield, if the opponent taps a land, the other lands (which produce same mana) must be tapped, but those others produce mana?
if the opponent so chooses, yes
he can activate the mana abilities in response to Mana Web's trigger

if he doesn't do anything they simply tap
proud member of the 2011 community team
if the opponent so chooses, yes
he can activate the mana abilities in response to Mana Web's trigger

if he doesn't do anything they simply tap




So Mana Web is simply useless. It just forces opponents to gain the mana in an unique phase.
basically, yes

it annoys control, but that's about it
proud member of the 2011 community team
So Mana Web is simply useless. It just forces opponents to gain the mana in an unique phase.

Preferably during Upkeep.

Tax evasion is nothing but legitimate self-defense against the theft that is tax collection.

As Chaikov said, if you can get them to tap mana during their upkeep, you can shuit them down pretty well, also , this card comboes up with Winter Orb I would think.
Howdy, y'all!


I have no choice but to accept what you've been saying here and elsewhere about mana Web but having a very hard time seeing any rationale for it.

Perhaps it is because I (think I) was told land tapping for mana was (a) not a spell casting and (b) used no stack.

But when my Mana Web on the board triggers its ability goes on the stack and these rulings in effect say that the subsequent non-spell mana tapping in effect acts as it is a spell casting that resolves before the Web's triggered ability can resolve.    


After writing that - after months of agony about the situatiion - I now see that one could rationalize it as land tapping being an activated abilty - which would mean a stack was involved.

So, please, what in blazes is going on here?  lol

Somewhat as a PS, Mana Short just came to mind with the possibility that it too couldn't prevent the mana usage, but the rulings there are explicitly stack-wise, with instants and abilities being able to counter it. 

But that also implies that the tapping of mana for casting the instant counter has already violated the Short's ability.  

Please show me how those rulings are rules-wise rational.

Thanks!
tapping something as an effect is just that - an effect

it's quite different than tapping something as a cost of an ability

if I Twiddle to tap someone's land, that doesn't do anything except tap that land, there's no mana generated. If the land's controller wants he could tap the land for its ability to generate mana in response to the ability on the stack, but the effect of Mana Web tapping it won't generate mana.

Mana Web's singular purpose is to make the player tap all his mana now and use it in the same phase/step.

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Howdy, y'all!


I have no choice but to accept what you've been saying here and elsewhere about mana Web but having a very hard time seeing any rationale for it.

Perhaps it is because I (think I) was told land tapping for mana was (a) not a spell casting and (b) used no stack.

But when my Mana Web on the board triggers its ability goes on the stack and these rulings in effect say that the subsequent non-spell mana tapping in effect acts as it is a spell casting that resolves before the Web's triggered ability can resolve.    


After writing that - after months of agony about the situatiion - I now see that one could rationalize it as land tapping being an activated abilty - which would mean a stack was involved.

So, please, what in blazes is going on here?  lol


Something like ": Add to your mana pool." IS an activated ability that doesn't use the stack.
602. Activating Activated Abilities

602.1. Activated abilities have a cost and an effect. They are written as "[Cost]: [Effect.] [Activation instructions (if any).]"

605. Mana Abilities

605.1. Some activated abilities and some triggered abilities are mana abilities, which are subject to special rules. Only abilities that meet either of the following two sets of criteria are mana abilities, regardless of what other effects they may generate or what timing restrictions (such as "Activate this ability only any time you could cast an instant") they may have.

605.1a An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets three criteria: it doesn't have a target, it could put mana into a player's mana pool when it resolves, and it's not a loyalty ability. (See rule 606, "Loyalty Abilities.")

605.1b A triggered ability without a target that triggers from activating a mana ability and could put mana into a player's mana pool when it resolves is a mana ability.

605.3. Activating an activated mana ability follows the rules for activating any other activated ability (see rule 602.2), with the following exceptions:

605.3a A player may activate an activated mana ability whenever he or she has priority, whenever he or she is casting a spell or activating an ability that requires a mana payment, or whenever a rule or effect asks for a mana payment, even if it's in the middle of casting or resolving a spell or activating or resolving an ability.

605.3b An activated mana ability doesn't go on the stack, so it can't be targeted, countered, or otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after it is activated. (See rule 405.6c.)


As an example, let's suppose the active player (referred to as AP) has three untapped Mountains, the other player referred to as NAP) has Mana Web, and a main phase is just starting.  For the sake of definiteness, I will refer to the Mountains as Blanc, Denali, and Everest.

  1. AP's main phase begins.

  2. AP gets priority and activates the ": Add to your mana pool." ability of Blanc.  AP pays the cost by tapping Blanc.  This triggers the ability of NAP's Mana Web.  AP adds to his mana pool.
    AP's mana pool:

  3. AP would get priority, but there is a triggered ability to put on the stack.  NAP puts "Whenever a land an opponent controls is tapped for mana, tap all lands that player controls that could produce any type of mana that land could produce." on the stack.

  4. AP gets priority and activates the ": Add to your mana pool." ability of Denali.  AP pays the cost by tapping Denali.  This triggers the ability of NAP's Mana Web.  AP adds to his mana pool.
    AP's mana pool:

  5. AP would get priority, but there is a triggered ability to put on the stack.  NAP puts "Whenever a land an opponent controls is tapped for mana, tap all lands that player controls that could produce any type of mana that land could produce." on the stack.

  6. AP gets priority and passes.

  7. NAP gets priority and passes.

  8. The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 5) resolves.  NAP taps all lands AP controls that could produce .  This is Blanc, Denali, and Everest, but Blanc and Denali are already tapped.  Everest is tapped.

  9. AP gets priority and passes.

  10. NAP gets priority and passes.

  11. The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 5) resolves.  NAP taps all lands AP controls that could produce .  This is Blanc, Denali, and Everest, but they're already tapped, so nothing actually happens.

  12. AP gets priority and casts Ash Zealot.  AP pays the cost using the which has been in his mana pool since step 4.
    AP's mana pool: empty

  13. AP gets priority and passes.

  14. NAP gets priority and passes.

  15. The top object on the stack (the spell cast in step 12) resolves.  AP puts Ash Zealot onto the battlefield.

  16. AP gets priority and ....


Alternately, mana abilities can be activated while casting a spell or activating an ability:



  1. AP's main phase begins.

  2. AP gets priority and casts Ash Zealot.  AP activates the abilities of Blanc and Denali (triggering Mana Web each time) to get  and spends it on the spell.

  3. AP would get priority, but there are triggered abilities to put on the stack.  NAP puts two abilities on the stack.  A) NAP puts "Whenever a land an opponent controls is tapped for mana, tap all lands that player controls that could produce any type of mana that land could produce." (triggered by Blanc) on the stack.  B) NAP puts "Whenever a land an opponent controls is tapped for mana, tap all lands that player controls that could produce any type of mana that land could produce." (triggered by Denali) on the stack.

  4. AP gets priority and passes.

  5. NAP gets priority and passes.

  6. The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 3B) resolves.  NAP taps all lands AP controls that could produce .  This is Blanc, Denali, and Everest, but Blanc and Denali are already tapped.  Everest is tapped.

  7. AP gets priority and passes.

  8. NAP gets priority and passes.

  9. The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 3A) resolves.  NAP taps all lands AP controls that could produce .  This is Blanc, Denali, and Everest, but they're already tapped, so nothing actually happens.

  10. AP gets priority and passes.

  11. NAP gets priority and passes.

  12. The top object on the stack (the spell cast in step 2) resolves.  AP puts Ash Zealot onto the battlefield.

  13. AP gets priority and ....

Somewhat as a PS, Mana Short just came to mind with the possibility that it too couldn't prevent the mana usage, but the rulings there are explicitly stack-wise, with instants and abilities being able to counter it. 

But that also implies that the tapping of mana for casting the instant counter has already violated the Short's ability.  

Please show me how those rulings are rules-wise rational.

Thanks!


"violated the Short's ability"?  What?

Let's try another example, with both players having plenty of untapped lands.  Tell us which part you have trouble with.

  1. AP gets priority and casts Shock.  AP chooses NAP as the target, and pays the cost using from a Mountain.

  2. AP gets priority and passes.

  3. NAP gets priority and casts Mana Short.  NAP chooses AP as the target, and pays the using using from three Islands.

  4. NAP gets priority and passes.

  5. AP gets priority and casts Geistflame  AP chooses NAP as the target, and pays the cost using from a mountain.

  6. AP gets priority and passes.

  7. NAP gets priority and passes.

  8. The top object on the stack (the spell cast in step 5) resolves.  Geistflame deals 1 damage to NAP.  Geistflame is put in AP's graveyard.

  9. AP gets priority and casts Cancel.  AP chooses the spell cast in step 3 as the target and pays the cost using from three Islands.

  10. AP gets priority and passes.

  11. NAP gets priority and passes.

  12. The top object on the stack (the spell cast in step 9) resolves.  The spell cast in step 3 is countered and is put in NAP's graveyard.  Cancel is put in AP's graveyard.

  13. AP gets priority and passes.

  14. NAP gets priority and passes.

  15. The top object on the stack (the spell cast in step 1) resolves.  Shock deals 2 damage to NAP.  Shock is put in AP's graveyard.

  16. AP gets priority and ....

No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.

Perhaps it is because I was told land tapping for mana was (a) not a spell casting and (b) used no stack.

You are correct: when a player chooses to tap his/her lands, it is not casting a spell and it does not use the stack.

But when my Mana Web on the board triggers its ability goes on the stack and these rulings in effect say that the subsequent non-spell mana tapping in effect acts as it is a spell casting that resolves before the Web's triggered ability can resolve.

It's still is not spell casting but yes, they resolve before Mana Web's ability.
Mana Web gives them a choice: either tap your lands to get mana right now OR get your lands tapped for no mana.

I now see that one could rationalize it as land tapping being an activated abilty

It's no rationale, it's the rule. (rules 305, 602 & 605, to name a few)

which would mean a stack was involved.

Nobody said that, because it is not true: mana abilities are activated (or triggered) but do not use the stack.

Somewhat as a PS, Mana Short just came to mind with the possibility that it too couldn't prevent the mana usage, but the rulings there are explicitly stack-wise, with instants and abilities being able to counter it.
But that also implies that the tapping of mana for casting the instant counter has already violated the Short's ability.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Tax evasion is nothing but legitimate self-defense against the theft that is tax collection.

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