An idea to kill martial math bloat, add old-school extra attacks/actions, and give fighter’s a shiny

So, a lot of people don’t like the +20 flat martial damage bonus. It seems to put some people off. Another group of old-school gamers really misses the ability to use multiple attacks and do neat things with multiple attacks. And finally, right now, weapon damage really doesn’t seem to matter much right now. I have a proposed fix which would keep things balanced…


Replace the first +5 increment of the flat martial damage bonus with Martial Combatant: You are so skilled in weapon combat that you can follow up on your primary attack with a secondary blow. You gain one extra attack. You may not add any damage bonuses (other than what you gain from a critical hit) to this attack. It deals only its weapon's damage die/dice. You may give up this extra attack in order to perform an action that does not deal damage.


Replace every +5 increment of the flat martial damage bonus after that with Improved Martial Combatant: The damage for your secondary attack increases by +1 die of whatever size your base weapon deals. If your base weapon deals 2d6 damage, you instead gain +2d6 damage. You may give up each die (or pair of dice) gained by Improved Martial Combatant in order to perform an action that does not deal damage.

The 5e of D&D: its like a more balanced version of 2e, but with the character customization frills of 3e and 4e. I love it!

Not a bad option, not a bad option at all. Only issue I see is slowdown, but that might not bother some people.
My two copper.
Not a bad option, not a bad option at all. Only issue I see is slowdown, but that might not bother some people.



I don't think it will cause a lot of slowdown. Mostly it will just add one attack roll worth of time dump. Of course, when people start using extra actions that will slow things down a little... but with combats lasting so few rounds, I don't think it would be a big deal. 
It does solve the weapon scaling problem...

But it also makes magic weapons much more powerful. 

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my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

It causes significant slowdown for the fighter, but that's plenty acceptable.  Not a bad option, though the math could probably stand to be fine tuned.

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Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

Currently, you can get both multiple attacks AND do a number of fancy things.

Volley and Whirlwind Attack both give you multiple attacks (1 extra per die spent).  You just can't stack them up all on one guy.  That said, putting all your dice to damage is effectively like hitting one guy a bunch of times; you just roll one attack roll.

Now, for fancy things.  A fighter can: disarm the target (1 die, assuming 1-handed weapon), knock the target down (1 die, assuming medium creature), and shove the target 5 feet (1 die, assuming medium creature), all from an extra 5 feet away (lunge, 1 die).  And you still have 2 dice to spare to add to damage (or disarm a 2-handed weapon, knock down a bigger creature, and/or shove a bigger creature).

To me, that seems seriously awesome.  If your only issue is that fact that you don't actually make multiple d20 attack rolls...just give the new system a chance.
It does solve the weapon scaling problem...

But it also makes magic weapons much more powerful. 



No it doesn't. Read the way it's worded. You can't add your magical damage bonus to the second attack. So, at the levels where you would get a +20 damage bonus in this packet, someone with a +3 magic weapon and a 1d8 longsword would deal 4d8 with his second attack--not 4d8+12. (Though, I guess the attack bonus does help you land that bonus damage with a higher statistical probability... but is that such a bad thing? I mean, if you are dealing 4d8 damage, that +3 adds +2.7 damage to your DPR. Not that big of a deal...)
I don't like extra attacks because it bogs things down with a bunch of extra rolling.

So, a lot of people don’t like the +20 flat martial damage bonus. It seems to put some people off. Another group of old-school gamers really misses the ability to use multiple attacks and do neat things with multiple attacks. And finally, right now, weapon damage really doesn’t seem to matter much right now. I have a proposed fix which would keep things balanced…


Replace the first +5 increment of the flat martial damage bonus with Martial Combatant: You are so skilled in weapon combat that you can follow up on your primary attack with a secondary blow. You gain one extra attack. You may not add any damage bonuses (other than what you gain from a critical hit) to this attack. It deals only its weapon's damage die/dice. You may give up this extra attack in order to perform an action that does not deal damage.


Replace every +5 increment of the flat martial damage bonus after that with Improved Martial Combatant: The damage for your secondary attack increases by +1 die of whatever size your base weapon deals. If your base weapon deals 2d6 damage, you instead gain +2d6 damage. You may give up each die (or pair of dice) gained by Improved Martial Combatant in order to perform an action that does not deal damage.




damage does not matter that much but action economy does.  Can we replace attack with action?

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

Currently, you can get both multiple attacks AND do a number of fancy things.

Volley and Whirlwind Attack both give you multiple attacks (1 extra per die spent).  You just can't stack them up all on one guy.  That said, putting all your dice to damage is effectively like hitting one guy a bunch of times; you just roll one attack roll.

Now, for fancy things.  A fighter can: disarm the target (1 die, assuming 1-handed weapon), knock the target down (1 die, assuming medium creature), and shove the target 5 feet (1 die, assuming medium creature), all from an extra 5 feet away (lunge, 1 die).  And you still have 2 dice to spare to add to damage (or disarm a 2-handed weapon, knock down a bigger creature, and/or shove a bigger creature).

To me, that seems seriously awesome.  If your only issue is that fact that you don't actually make multiple d20 attack rolls...just give the new system a chance.



Arithzoo, you have just made comments without actually reading the OP very carefully and ended up talking about something completely unrelated. I am not proposing that any of the things the fighter can do now be taken away. You still get martial damage dice. By level 11 you still get +6d6 martial damage dice. You still add those as a bonus to your primary attack or spend them on maneuvers. 

This proposal replaced your martial damage bonus not your martial damage dice. It gives you more neat combinations from round to round, not less.  It just takes that flat +20 damage bonus you get by level 20 and turns it into one extra attack that does 4[w] damage e(to borrow 4e nomenclature), each [w] of which can be traded for an action that does not deal damage.

A fighter, thus, gains a benefit to his DPR in the form of his weapon proficiency. By using higher damage dice weapons he will have a slight bonus to his DPR potential.


A rogue, meanwhile, also gets a slight bonus; while its potential DPR goes down, its ability to use skill tricks in the same round that it deals damage goes up. 

I thought of simply replacing each +5 with a single weapon die (or pair of die).  I do agree that weapon choice needs to be more significant.

 

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So, a lot of people don’t like the +20 flat martial damage bonus. It seems to put some people off. Another group of old-school gamers really misses the ability to use multiple attacks and do neat things with multiple attacks. And finally, right now, weapon damage really doesn’t seem to matter much right now. I have a proposed fix which would keep things balanced…


Replace the first +5 increment of the flat martial damage bonus with Martial Combatant: You are so skilled in weapon combat that you can follow up on your primary attack with a secondary blow. You gain one extra attack. You may not add any damage bonuses (other than what you gain from a critical hit) to this attack. It deals only its weapon's damage die/dice. You may give up this extra attack in order to perform an action that does not deal damage.


Replace every +5 increment of the flat martial damage bonus after that with Improved Martial Combatant: The damage for your secondary attack increases by +1 die of whatever size your base weapon deals. If your base weapon deals 2d6 damage, you instead gain +2d6 damage. You may give up each die (or pair of dice) gained by Improved Martial Combatant in order to perform an action that does not deal damage.




damage does not matter that much but action economy does.  Can we replace attack with action?



Reread your quote. Specifically the part I just emphasized. In short, yes... but not an action that deals damage.

Thats the problem.  I can't read!

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

I had a different idea also, to solve this 6D6 + 20 weirdness.

How about at high level you can start swapping dice for 6 points of damage instead.

so instead of 6D6 + 20 you just get 6d6, but if you just doing damage you can make it 32 damage? 

thoughts?

 

My mind is a deal-breaker.

Currently, you can get both multiple attacks AND do a number of fancy things.

Volley and Whirlwind Attack both give you multiple attacks (1 extra per die spent).  You just can't stack them up all on one guy.  That said, putting all your dice to damage is effectively like hitting one guy a bunch of times; you just roll one attack roll.

Now, for fancy things.  A fighter can: disarm the target (1 die, assuming 1-handed weapon), knock the target down (1 die, assuming medium creature), and shove the target 5 feet (1 die, assuming medium creature), all from an extra 5 feet away (lunge, 1 die).  And you still have 2 dice to spare to add to damage (or disarm a 2-handed weapon, knock down a bigger creature, and/or shove a bigger creature).

To me, that seems seriously awesome.  If your only issue is that fact that you don't actually make multiple d20 attack rolls...just give the new system a chance.



but you need that power to perform those multiple attacks.   I think all fighters should have multiple attacks without the need of a build process or powers.   For that reason,  the simple fighter has yet to be realized in Next.  

I'd give up all the contrived options in Next for multiple attacks and an open combat action list. 


I thought of simply replacing each +5 with a single weapon die (or pair of die).  I do agree that weapon choice needs to be more significant.


Weapon choice should be more significant, but damage is not the place to do it.  Damage doesn't give character to a weapon, and thus to the fighting style of the user, it just changes its effectiveness as a weapon.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

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I'd give up all the contrived options in Next for multiple attacks and an open combat action list.


I think there's a way to handle that.  Drop the martial damage bonus completely.  Then, replace every 2d6 Martial Damage Dice with +1 Attack.  So that would be no MDB, no MDD, and extra attacks at levels 3, 7, and 11.  Of course, you'd have to figure out something to do with combat surge, or else you could end up with 8 attacks in a round (which may not be so bad since it's only 4 times a day at lvl 20).

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I'd give up all the contrived options in Next for multiple attacks and an open combat action list.


I think there's a way to handle that.  Drop the martial damage bonus completely.  Then, replace every 2d6 Martial Damage Dice with +1 Attack.  So that would be no MDB, no MDD, and extra attacks at levels 3, 7, and 11.  Of course, you'd have to figure out something to do with combat surge, or else you could end up with 8 attacks in a round (which may not be so bad since it's only 4 times a day at lvl 20).

No MDB? No MDD? Extra Attacks? Music to my ears.

Danny

I'd give up all the contrived options in Next for multiple attacks and an open combat action list.


I think there's a way to handle that.  Drop the martial damage bonus completely.  Then, replace every 2d6 Martial Damage Dice with +1 Attack.  So that would be no MDB, no MDD, and extra attacks at levels 3, 7, and 11.  Of course, you'd have to figure out something to do with combat surge, or else you could end up with 8 attacks in a round (which may not be so bad since it's only 4 times a day at lvl 20).

No MDB? No MDD? Extra Attacks? Music to my ears.


Well, it's not my preference, but there's no reason that people who want simple classes shouldn't have options for them.  And since this option is so simple (although the math needs testing) it's be easy enough to put it in at launch as a sidebar.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

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