Bounded accuracy would work better if weapon attack and spell casting bonus worked like skill dice…

Weapon attack and spellcasting bonus should become weapon attack die and spellcasting die bonus. Fighter's, rogues, and monks should get a weapon attack die progression that works at the exact same rate as the current skill die progression. Wizards and clerics should get a spellcasting bonus die progression that works at the exact same rate as the current skill die progression. Clerics would get a 1d4 weapon attack die at level 6. They would get a 1d6 weapon attack die at level 12. All armor (and monster AC) should get a +1 bonus accross the board. Monks should get an AC of 11 + their Dex mod + their Wis mod. 

This would work much better with the bounded accuracy system. This way, from level 1-20, you would have the same minimum attack roll or casting check. Your maximum would go up as you gained more skill, as would your statistical probability of hitting. You would still, however, have a real (not 5%) chance of missing any creature at any level. Monsters really would be usable at pretty much any level of play.

The 5e of D&D: its like a more balanced version of 2e, but with the character customization frills of 3e and 4e. I love it!

The d20 roll is already swingy enough. I'm not so sure that making attack/spell accuracy modifiers almost as swingy is at all desireable.

The d20 roll is already swingy enough. I'm not so sure that making attack/spell accuracy modifiers almost as swingy is at all desireable.


Except it doesn't necessarily make it more swingy.  It makes it more swingy on the positive side, not the negative side.  As dice increase in size, the top end increases - but the minimum roll doesn't change at all.

You can't just go "it's a die, therefore it's swingy."  You have to take into account the total system math.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I agree with Cyber-Dave and Mand12 here.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

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A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

The d20 roll is already swingy enough. I'm not so sure that making attack/spell accuracy modifiers almost as swingy is at all desireable.

 

Because AC is bounded, it does not get more swingy. See what Mand12 wrote to you. 

Though, I will say, given a system like this a 1 should not be an automatic miss. Being able to roll low on your martial attack die or spellcasting die covers that function (in a much more mathematically elegant model, given the bounded math system) already.  
This is a great, innovative idea.

It'd make the game better and push it firmly into the arms of modern design.

So it will never happen.

... still,

Great idea though. 

Sounds a lot like Earthdawn (published in 1993 - "modern game system" fans can put that in their pipes and smoke it), which is one of my favourite systems ever.


This could totally work. I know because I've used systems like it extensively and they're awesome fun.

I love this a little bit too.
While I do like the idea (it is after all almost exactly what I suggested earlier today) I do think some modifications might help.

Being proficient in a weapon (or implement) allows you to add your skill dice to your attack rolls.

This will help Gish and hybrid classes keep up. It will also make it easier to multiclass and create unique character concepts.

Remember, due to bounded accuracy it is ok if everyone has about the same hit chance because the damage makes the difference. Nobody will complain that the wizard trained to use the staff is as accurate as the fighter because his damage is going to be 6d6+20 less per hit.
Remember, due to bounded accuracy it is ok if everyone has about the same hit chance because the damage makes the difference. Nobody will complain that the wizard trained to use the staff is as accurate as the fighter because his damage is going to be 6d6+20 less per hit.



Be that as it may, I will complain that the wizard trained to use the staff is as accurate as the fighter.


But it's easy to make the discrepency happen without messing anything up.

I don't know. A wizard will have a crap Str, and will probably not have a very high Dex either. So, he would not actually be as accurate as the fighter. Honestly, I don't really care either way. I would be happy with a feature in spellcasting that allowed you to add your Skill Die to spellcasting attacks, and allowing all characters to add their Skill Die to attack rolls with any weapon with which they are proficient. The martial damage bonuses already take the place of an increased attack bonus based on class. But, I think my proposal here would jar fewer D&D players...

^ You mean the wizard with a 20 strength and trained in weapons is as accurate as the fighter.

But wait, due to bounded accuracy your damage represents your "accuracy" now. So in effect your oddball 20 strength wizard is as accurate as the fighter but this is only illusory accuracy. In reality he is still less accurate.

Also, why shouldn't a wizard trained in weapons be just as accurate as a fighter? Did you ever watch any of the LotR movies. Gandalf lays down the sword smacking all over the place.

Course then we get embroiled in whether a hit that does damage is actually a hit that does damage. I think we should agree to disagree on that point and move on.


Whatever anyone's personal views on what HP represents (and please let's just agree to disagree), the fact that you're rolling to figure out whether you hit or not means that the roll needs to be significant. The nice thing about more dice is it allows the ACs to remain relatively low in the face of climbing bonuses without destroying the uncertainty of the attack roll.


This is totally going in my survey feedback 'cause it's a brilliant idea. If we can accept a skill die, why not an attack die?


I'm begianning to think WOTC has saw my homebrew game and is copying it.

The Thief class in my game lks like this.

Accuracy Dice: 1d6
Weapon Dice: 1d6 one handed 1d8 two handed
Combat Dice: 1d6
Skill Dice: 1d6
Trickery Dice: 1d6

---

Anyway, This sounds like a good module rather than core rules.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

The d20 roll is already swingy enough. I'm not so sure that making attack/spell accuracy modifiers almost as swingy is at all desireable.


Except it doesn't necessarily make it more swingy.  It makes it more swingy on the positive side, not the negative side.  As dice increase in size, the top end increases - but the minimum roll doesn't change at all.

You can't just go "it's a die, therefore it's swingy."  You have to take into account the total system math.



Because AC is bounded, it does not get more swingy. See what Mand12 wrote to you. 


Though, I will say, given a system like this a 1 should not be an automatic miss. Being able to roll low on your martial attack die or spellcasting die covers that function (in a much more mathematically elegant model, given the bounded math system) already.  




Perhaps there's some context of "swingy" that I've unwittingly used. So I'll just use "variable". And I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that some of us, as a matter of preference, do not want to see variability of important task resolution systems (such as to-hit) increased any further.


Sounds a lot like Earthdawn (published in 1993 - "modern game system" fans can put that in their pipes and smoke it), which is one of my favourite systems ever. 




Well you see it only takes something from the 90s to be modern for a game that barely gets out of the 70s
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

This looks familar... 

But yes..  For both skills and attacks.

Not proficent/trained = no bonus.
Novice proficency/training = 1d4.
Adept proficency/training = 1d6.
Expert proficency/training = 1d8.
Master proficency/training = 1d10.
Grand Master proficency/training = 1d12.


We could add 2d6, and 3d4.  But that only really works up to AC/DC 30.  It actually reduces chances of getting 35.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.


Sounds a lot like Earthdawn (published in 1993 - "modern game system" fans can put that in their pipes and smoke it), which is one of my favourite systems ever.


Well you see it only takes something from the 90s to be modern for a game that barely gets out of the 70s

So 2e AD&D is mostly modern then? Seems most of its revision history falls in the 90's.
I am not a fan of the idea. 

While the minimum is the same (1) the maximum is not nor are the in-between, making it a variable bonus everytime you attack. While the average may be similar, the low and high ends are not and i don't see this as good for Bounded Accuracy, especially since the highest Weapon/Spell Attack Bonus is 5. Its makes it bad for Bounded Accuracy when the modifier is higher and bad for the PC when its lower than it would have been if static. Training should not be determined by luck and i prefer Weapon/Spell Attack bonus to be scaling as a static modifier instead of a random modifier generated by a die. 

I think the randomness should be in the task reslution alone and not in the modifier as well as it is too swingy and require more rolling uneccessarily.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I disagree with your premise that BA requires low level creatures to be missable by high level characters.  What it requires is for high level characters to be hittable by low level characters, the two are quite distinct and thoroughly unrelated.  
I am not a fan of the idea. 

While the minimum is the same (1) the maximum is not nor are the in-between, making it a variable bonus everytime you attack. While the average may be similar, the low and high ends are not and i don't see this as good for Bounded Accuracy, especially since the highest Weapon/Spell Attack Bonus is 5. Training should not be determined by luck and i prefer Weapon/Spell Attack bonus to be scaling as a static modifier instead of a random modifier generated by a die. 

I think the randomness should be in the task reslution alone and not in the modifier as well as it is too swingy and require more rolling uneccessarily.

You have the exact same chance (5%) of rolling a middle DC as you do rolling a straight d20 + mod.

So long as your AC is between 5 and 23.  There is no change* in math between 1d20+1d4, and 1d20+2.

*ok, there is a .5 (2.5%) shift since 1d4 -> 2.5, and not 2.  But each point of AC is still 5%.

At max level (d12 vs +6), the variance increases a bit to 13 to 21.  Which just means a level 20 +1d12 fighter would have a slightly harder (1.25%) time killing a AC 11 minion.  And a slightly easier time (1.25%) hitting a AC 25 super tank.



So yea.  Swinginess is not really changed.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Weapon attack and spellcasting bonus should become weapon attack die and spellcasting die bonus. Fighter's, rogues, and monks should get a weapon attack die progression that works at the exact same rate as the current skill die progression. Wizards and clerics should get a spellcasting bonus die progression that works at the exact same rate as the current skill die progression. Clerics would get a 1d4 weapon attack die at level 6. They would get a 1d6 weapon attack die at level 12. All armor (and monster AC) should get a +1 bonus across the board. Monks should get an AC of 11 + their Dex mod + their Wis mod. 

This would work much better with the bounded accuracy system. This way, from level 1-20, you would have the same minimum attack roll or casting check. Your maximum would go up as you gained more skill, as would your statistical probability of hitting. You would still, however, have a real (not 5%) chance of missing any creature at any level. Monsters really would be usable at pretty much any level of play.

[wrings hands deviously]

Yesss. Yessss! Finally, our conspiratorial efforts are beginning to take root, Dave. Soon, we will have the Alternity system back and lovingly in our arms once again.

Oh, Alternity. How I missed thee.
The swingyness also apply for numbers lower than what it should have been. Anything not hitting the static number previously established as the Weapon/Spell Attack Bonus is what makes it swingy.

There is no change* in math between 1d20+1d4, and 1d20+2.

1d20+1d4 can get 1d20+1, 1d20+2, 1d20+3 and 1d20+4 giving chances to be lower or higher than +2. 

1d20+1d12 can get 1d20+1, 1d20+2, 1d20+3, 1d20+, 1d20+5, 1d20+6, 1d20+7, 1d20+8, 1d20+9, 1d20+10, 1d20+11 and 1d20+12 giving even more chances to be lower or higher +6.

Lower is bad for the PC and higher is bad for Bounded Accuracy. Wink 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

But it's entirely irrelevent whether it becomes 1d20+1 or 1d20+4.  What matters is whether the sum is more or less than any given AC, and the odds of that are more or less unchanged.  The odds of hitting an AC of over 35 have increased, but seeing as how the highest AC in the packet is a 17 that hardly seems relevant.  Maybe the full MM will have some super-hard AC of 25 or something, but even there the odds are pretty similar.  Oh, and swing isn't actually bad for BA, even if it were substantially swingier on any definition of the term that mattered to the game.  BA is indifferent to swing.  

Sounds a lot like Earthdawn (published in 1993 - "modern game system" fans can put that in their pipes and smoke it), which is one of my favourite systems ever.


Well you see it only takes something from the 90s to be modern for a game that barely gets out of the 70s

So 2e AD&D is mostly modern then? Seems most of its revision history falls in the 90's.


BZT Not really D&D may have creeped in to the 80s of game design with the d20 engine.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

The swingyness also apply for numbers lower than what it should have been. Anything not hitting the static number previously established as the Weapon/Spell Attack Bonus is what makes it swingy.

There is no change* in math between 1d20+1d4, and 1d20+2.

1d20+1d4 can get 1d20+1, 1d20+2, 1d20+3 and 1d20+4 giving chances to be lower or higher than +2. 

1d20+1d12 can get 1d20+1, 1d20+2, 1d20+3, 1d20+, 1d20+5, 1d20+6, 1d20+7, 1d20+8, 1d20+9, 1d20+10, 1d20+11 and 1d20+12 giving even more chances to be lower or higher +6.

Lower is bad for the PC and higher is bad for Bounded Accuracy.  

Nope.

Here's the numbers for 1d20+1d12.

#,%
2,0.416666666667
3,0.833333333333
4,1.25
5,1.66666666667
6,2.08333333333
7,2.5
8,2.91666666667
9,3.33333333333
10,3.75
11,4.16666666667
12,4.58333333333
13,5
14,5
15,5
16,5
17,5
18,5
19,5
20,5
21,5
22,4.58333333333
23,4.16666666667
24,3.75
25,3.33333333333
26,2.91666666667
27,2.5
28,2.08333333333
29,1.66666666667
30,1.25
31,0.833333333333
32,0.416666666667

Unless your AC is less then 13, or greater then 21, it's a flat 5%.  Same as a d20 + 6.

Highest AC is 17.  Lowest might be 12?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I've realized that the skill dice (and this proposed attack bonus dice) was something I was advocating as the advantage mechanic (multiple advantages means dice size goes up as a bonus, multiple disadvantages means you subtract the dice).

Now that I see it as a straight attack bonus the more I like it.

If AC ranges go from 1 to 35. Average AC is 18 without modifiers.

A level 1 character with an average ability bonus (+2) has the following chances to hit (note: average between -1 and +5)

no bonus : 25%
1d4: 37.5%
1d6: 42.5%
1d8: 47.5%
1d10: 52.5%
1d12: 57.5%

The median hit chance to hit the median AC at the median attack dice bonus with the median ability bonus is 45%

This might be slightly lower than wanted. However, if the median AC is 17 (which it seems to currently be) the median chance to hit the median AC with the Median ability bonus is 50% (47.5 and 52.5).

This means our highest end AC would be 33 (1-33 average AC 17) which has the following hit chances using the highest ability bonus.

no bonus: 0%
1d4: 0%
1d6: 0%
1d8: 0.63%
1d10: 3%
1d12: 6.25%

So on the extreme end the percentages are much lower. However, something in the 30 range of AC's are more than likely elder gods, on their home plane. Something that in my opinion should be very hard to damage without magical weapons, armor, and a whole lot of luck. With a +3 magic weapon and +5 ability bonus the 1d12 bonus jumps to 15% hit chance against a 33 so still pretty difficult to kill a god on his own turf.

The majority of all AC would fall between the 9 and 23 range.

Quick edit, this means you could also make some fun interesting magic items. For example Asmodeus has a 33 AC on his home plane. However, the blade of Asmodeus slaying (artifact weapon), created by Pelor (or whoever) works like a regular +3 weapon except against Asmodeus, which allows you to treat his AC as if it was 23 instead of 33. So the real quest is to find the blade so you can go and kill him on his own turf.
I see mellorred how the 1d20 help compensate i was leaving it out.

While its good for the system, something in me doesn't like the like the idea of having to roll  to determine my attack bonus. Wink

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I see mellorred how the 1d20 help compensate i was leaving it out.

While its good for the system, something in me doesn't like the like the idea of having to roll  to determine my attack bonus. 

Since the math is the same, and it's basicly down to a personal preference, we just need to make it a mod.

I mean, we have mods for Max HP, Monster Damage, why not attack/skill bonus?

Not Proficent = No Bonus
Novice Proficency Bonus  1d4 (2)
Adept Proficency Bonus 1d6 (3)
Expert Proficency Bonus 1d8 (4)
Master Proficency Bonus 1d10 (5)
Grand Master Proficency Bonus 1d12 (6)


The only change is in the outliers.  You can never reach a DC 35 (or fail a DC10) knowlage check with 1d20+5 int+6 training.  Not that you have much of a chance rolling either (2.5%).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Nice, I came back to have the math behind why it is not more swingy/why it works better with bounded accuracy all explained for me! Thanks guys. 
So we hate the idea of using [W] because its too much algebra, and instead want to do probabilities of rolling two dice to hit something?
Welcome to ZomboniLand - My D&D Blog http://zomboniland.blogspot.com/
So we hate the idea of using [W] because its too much algebra, and instead want to do probabilities of rolling two dice to hit something?




I'm not sure where you are getting this from. We are only doing the probabilities to show it works. Once that is proved we can ignore the probability because we know it works, then it simply becomes 1d20+1dX.
Oh, Alternity. How I missed thee.



That was my first thought when reading the thread. And, honestly, the idea is really starting to grow on me. The math is solid, it unifies the combat and skill task systems, and it plays well with the stated goal of building a system for bonded accuracy. I don't really care if it doesn't match up with how older editions did things (that is why I own older editions or find a good retro-cloone). It is better that D&DN forge a unique identity.
Just a few onions short of a patch.
I'd make the top end 2d6 instead of 1d12. Other than that, I absolutely love this idea, and will blatantly borrow it for my other efforts

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If we added things like weapon proficiency, or a player during combat has to decide if they use their d4 combat die vs d6 they may stop to determine best course of action.

I'm just not seeing any pros other than roll more dice
Welcome to ZomboniLand - My D&D Blog http://zomboniland.blogspot.com/
I'd make the top end 2d6 instead of 1d12. Other than that, I absolutely love this idea, and will blatantly borrow it for my other efforts



Sharing is awesome!

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

If we added things like weapon proficiency, or a player during combat has to decide if they use their d4 combat die vs d6 they may stop to determine best course of action. I'm just not seeing any pros other than roll more dice



Weapon profiency is you have it or don't. If you don't know how to use the weapon you have disadvantage.

You don't choose if you use a d4 or a d6. That is determined by your level and class. This replaces the class based attack bonus.
The one change I would make is to let all classes proficient in a weapon to use their attack die (same a skill die).   Then I would differentiate fighter by giving them a version of the rouge ability which lets them roll 2 dice and keep higher, but for their attack die instead.

So a fighter would roll d20 + 2dx (keep higher), on all attacks, giving them a distinctive edge above all other combat classes and without having to come up with a different die progression for semi-combat classes.

Or, you could achieve the same effect by making a feat (Combat Training?)  which allows an attacker to use their skill die with any weapon they are trained in and give that feat for free to semi-combat classes (like Cleric).
Keep the Superior Combat Training (roll 2 skill keep higher on attacks) as a Fighter only class feature (perhaps Ranger, Palladin, and other full combat classes as well).  Then non-combat classes simply can't use their skill die to attack unless they take a feat to do so, and no one can use it for a weapon they aren't proficient in.

On the whole, I'm not sure how I feel about skill die yet.  But if they're going to use them for skills, I agree that it makes sense to use them for attacks as well (including spellcasting).  BA math is a lot easier if you use the same formulas for all aspects of the game.

<$0.02 deposited>
I love this idea!!

I hope that WotC have been secretly coming upon this idea all along (and it just isn't evident because they're 2 packets ahead of us) and are throwing us skill dice to see if the very idea of replacing bonuses with dice can catch on to begin with.  If that's the case, survey says, emphatically, YES!

(minus the very notable plague – I would suggest to you, though, plague, that it's very very very easy to create a module either way, for replacing static bonuses with dice or replacing dice with static bonuses.  But since a lot of people like throwing dice around, I personally hope that static bonuses are the optional trade-in module for Alternity-style dice bonuses).

Personally, I think that dice for these things makes sense, because even when you're proficient with a weapon, or masterful with a skill, or learned with magic, there's a chance that you learned something wrong in your training, or that something that you thought would work to your advantage doesn't because of the peculiarities of this situation.  It's not a mess-up in the d20 roll, because you didn't screw up, you did everything right, but your special training just didn't serve you well this particular time and make it even more effective than it normally would be.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

Although it sounded a bit odd to me at first glance, I kind of like the idea of a straight up "proficiency" bonus.

Wizards, for example, would have Grand Mastery (as mello describes) with implement/magical attacks; but none for weapon attacks (without a feat or multiclassing--either that or the racial weapon bonus could tweak your prof die up a notch, provide the bonus if you lacked it before, or allow certain weapons to channel magical attacks).

We couple extrapolate a similar system for MDD as well, replacing them with scaling the number of [W] by level and class. So a level 20 fighter does 6d8 damage with a longsword, unless he trades some of that "edge" for maneuvers or effects. This would also make weapon choice relevant at higher levels.

Parry would need reworking, naturally (otherwise the great sword becomes the new heavy shield).

Hmm...
The Penitent Brothers of the Burnishing Sun - A Collection of Paladin builds The Goode Friends of Johnny - A Mischievous Rabble of Murderers and Scoundrels (soon to come)
If we added things like weapon proficiency, or a player during combat has to decide if they use their d4 combat die vs d6 they may stop to determine best course of action. I'm just not seeing any pros other than roll more dice

Not really.  It just replaced the basic attack bonus with a die.

For instance.

Wizard: Basic proficency in simple weapons.

Fighters: Basic proficency in all weapons.
Level 3: Novice Proficency in all weapons.
Level 6: Adept Proficency in all weapons.
Level 9: Expert Proficency in all weapons.
Level 12: Master Proficency in all weapons.
Level 15: Grand Master Proficency in all weapons.

Cleric: Basic Proficencies in X weapons.
Level 6: Novice Proficencies in X weapons.
Level 12: Adept Proficency in X weapons.
Level 18: Expert Proficency in all weapons.

(or whatever you want to scale them at). 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.