What about Gnomes and Bards?

I haven't seen anything about them yet, and honestly I love that tiny, bearded, curious things. Also the bard, that class is awesome; if you want to have fun, and has a creative mind it could give the session a lot of colour. So, anyone know about them?
If they're to be anything like previous editions (ie, not earth elementals), I can honestly say I hope gnomes don't exist in this one. Yell
Don't listen to my friend Ritter; he's got a bias against Gnomes-as-Pucks/Tinkers/Leprauchauns. 

Gnomes will certainly exist, though whether they return to the more earthy, dwarf-like elemental-like form we saw them as Svirfneblin are in 4e or Rock Gnomes in 3e (which I've gathered over the years is still not good enough for Ritter above), or whether they're the playful tricksters of 4e MM and PH2, or whether they're the Tinkers/Scholars of Eberron… that remains to be seen.

But Gnomes will certainly return.  And not be just A Monster, RAWR!!!!!


Bards also will make a comeback, as soon as they've got the 5 current classes nailed down good, they'll take a look at the gishy classes (Paladin, Ranger, Bard), the other spellcasters (Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock), and the Barbarian.  For now, I find it easy to make something like a Bard by taking the Trickster Domain Cleric, adding Hedge Wizard specialty, and the Minstrel Background, and calling it a day.  That's for more Cunning Bards, of course – Skalds/Valorous Bards might choose the Warbringer Domain Cleric, while Prescients might choose the Arcanist Domain. 

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

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A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

Don't listen to my friend Ritter; he's got a bias against Gnomes-as-Pucks/Tinkers/Leprauchauns. 

Gnomes will certainly exist, though whether they return to the more earthy, dwarf-like elemental-like form we saw them as Svirfneblin are in 4e or Rock Gnomes in 3e (which I've gathered over the years is still not good enough for Ritter above), or whether they're the playful tricksters of 4e MM and PH2, or whether they're the Tinkers/Scholars of Eberron… that remains to be seen.

But Gnomes will certainly return.  And not be just A Monster, RAWR!!!!!



The idea of gnomes-as-fey is entirely D&D's doing and I'd like to see it corrected.  The only creature that has any claim to the name is an earth elemental; earth genasi are acceptable but pushing it.


Bards also will make a comeback, as soon as they've got the 5 current classes nailed down good, they'll take a look at the gishy classes (Paladin, Ranger, Bard), the other spellcasters (Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock), and the Barbarian.  For now, I find it easy to make something like a Bard by taking the Trickster Domain Cleric, adding Hedge Wizard specialty, and the Minstrel Background, and calling it a day.  That's for more Cunning Bards, of course – Skalds/Valorous Bards might choose the Warbringer Domain Cleric, while Prescients might choose the Arcanist Domain. 



You'll note I made no argument against bards.  Though I would rather they went back to being a prestige thing. Wink
I did notice, and didn't contest you on them, Ritter!  I agree, the nomenclature for Gnomes is quite different from how we understand them, but remember, Noldorin and Garden Gnomes (and by extension, Tompte, Leprauchauns, Brownies, Pucks, etc) have a distinct influence on the D&D Gnome too. 

The great thing about D&D is that in home campaigns, these races can exist with different names and origins – fluff is mutable!  But there really is a place for this sort of faerie spirit, just as there is a place for an earth elemental mining type Gnome (though that seems to be similar in many ways in my opinion to Dwarves).

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

Ok, that are good news. Because the system has some things that i really love; but if there are no bards it's gonna be hard to embrace it haha
I must have my tinkering gnomes!
If they're to be anything like previous editions (ie, not earth elementals), I can honestly say I hope gnomes don't exist in this one. 



Prepare yourself for disappointment. I can virtually guarantee two things. One, that gnomes will be included in 5e. Two, that they will not be earth elementals. No one will begrudge you the right to houserule whatever you like for your own game.
Not this again....

We did this in 4E.  Just because it's not in the first book doesn't mean it's banned from the game forever.  Relax.  Drink a beer.  Play a dwarve or a rogue.  Your pet classes and races will be there  eventually.  This is a beta... not even PHB1.
If they're to be anything like previous editions (ie, not earth elementals), I can honestly say I hope gnomes don't exist in this one. 



Prepare yourself for disappointment. I can virtually guarantee two things. One, that gnomes will be included in 5e. Two, that they will not be earth elementals. No one will begrudge you the right to houserule whatever you like for your own game.



And there goes any hope I might have had left for this game.  No blue ring for you!
I think Gnomes should be in the game.  I think Bards should be in the game as well, but could easily be added as a type of rogue if they brought back intersting specialities and backgrounds (not the watered down versions of the last few playtests).
I think Gnomes should be in the game.  I think Bards should be in the game as well, but could easily be added as a type of rogue if they brought back intersting specialities and backgrounds (not the watered down versions of the last few playtests).



THeres a gnome in my game! Only because the PC's thought he was cute, so now he is a party member from Blingdenstone.

My mind is a deal-breaker.

I like gnomes and hope they return. I never had fun with the Bard though but perhaps that's because my party is small and we only have 3 of us as players. But really, I never felt like I was doing anything useful. I play a gnome when I want to play something close to a fey because its tiny and has pointed ears. 
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I did notice, and didn't contest you on them, Ritter!  I agree, the nomenclature for Gnomes is quite different from how we understand them, but remember, Noldorin and Garden Gnomes (and by extension, Tompte, Leprauchauns, Brownies, Pucks, etc) have a distinct influence on the D&D Gnome too. 

The great thing about D&D is that in home campaigns, these races can exist with different names and origins – fluff is mutable!  But there really is a place for this sort of faerie spirit, just as there is a place for an earth elemental mining type Gnome (though that seems to be similar in many ways in my opinion to Dwarves).




Interesting you should mention that, Tolkien called the Noldor (Elves) Gnomes, originally.

There's room for all:

-Rock (standard, garden variety).

-Forest (fey, extra small).

-Svirfneblin (earth type).

-Tinker (Dragonlance/Spelljammer).
I do think they could have thrown us a new race or two by now.
If they're to be anything like previous editions (ie, not earth elementals), I can honestly say I hope gnomes don't exist in this one. 



Prepare yourself for disappointment. I can virtually guarantee two things. One, that gnomes will be included in 5e. Two, that they will not be earth elementals. No one will begrudge you the right to houserule whatever you like for your own game.



And there goes any hope I might have had left for this game.  No blue ring for you!



No offence but the races aren't going to be structured around your demands. ;) Maybe traditional gnome lore has more of an earth elemental feel to it but D&D gnomes are horses of a different colour so feel free to base them on whatever you want in your own game. I can't see a reason why you shouldn't. It's not like this is the first context in which gnomes are not earth elementals. I'm assuming (and hoping) you are using hyperbole though?
If they're to be anything like previous editions (ie, not earth elementals), I can honestly say I hope gnomes don't exist in this one. 



Prepare yourself for disappointment. I can virtually guarantee two things. One, that gnomes will be included in 5e. Two, that they will not be earth elementals. No one will begrudge you the right to houserule whatever you like for your own game.



And there goes any hope I might have had left for this game.  No blue ring for you!



No offence but the races aren't going to be structured around your demands. ;) Maybe traditional gnome lore has more of an earth elemental feel to it but D&D gnomes are horses of a different colour so feel free to base them on whatever you want in your own game. I can't see a reason why you shouldn't. It's not like this is the first context in which gnomes are not earth elementals. I'm assuming (and hoping) you are using hyperbole though?



Oh, no.  Next has, in all honesty, been one long string of disappointments for me.  This would be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back, as 'twere.


THeres a gnome in my game! Only because the PC's thought he was cute, so now he is a party member from Blingdenstone.

I'm curious as to what abilities you gave the svirfneblin NPCs. I plan to give the guides full, PC-like stats. I'm leaning towards +1 Wis or Con, stonecunning, and a +5 to hide in underground areas. And maybe picks as a racial weapon.
I honesly prefer the 4E gnomes myself.  I mean, granted, they are less traditional in their appearance, but, to me, they never stood out as . . . special before.  Previously they seemed to either be shorter, more magical dwarves, or bearded, subteranian halflings.  Turning them into fey creatures like the Eladrin race at least gave them a more unique appearence and design, even if it felt like some artistic license was taken there.
I'm with you, SonicTheHedgedawg. The 4E gnomes stole my heart. Though, I'd like to see that approach squared with the 3.5 subraces. The eladrin continued to account for high/grey/sun/moon elves, but the gnome subraces seemed to pretty much disappear. The idea of rock gnomes done in that style lathers me up.
I hope in the next playtest packet they put out some gnomes! :D 
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I'm with you, SonicTheHedgedawg. The 4E gnomes stole my heart. Though, I'd like to see that approach squared with the 3.5 subraces. The eladrin continued to account for high/grey/sun/moon elves, but the gnome subraces seemed to pretty much disappear. The idea of rock gnomes done in that style lathers me up.



A really easy way to deal with that is, if keeping gnomes fey in origin, to merely tie them closely to the earth, as the fey are want to do, and then merely make the gnomes as we saw them in 4e be the "normal" or "wooded lands" version of a gnome with allowances for gnomes from rocky or coastal lands, for example.
We have been doing Blingdenstone, and one of my players really loves gnomes so we ginned up a Gnome race for him.  Who cares about balance, it's a playtest.  I suspect Ritter will hate it, but here's what we came up with:

Gnome
Size: Small
Vision: Low Light
Speed: 25 feet
Languages: Common & Elven

Racial Features:
Trickster' Cunning - You gain a +5 bonus to defeat illusions
Gnomish Weapon Trainng - When wielding a pick, dart, or whip, increase the damage dice by one.
Fey Gadgeteer - Advantage on checks to create or diable gadgets and traps.  Advantage on sneak checks to hide from larger creatures.

Subraces:
Rock Gnomes
+1 Intelligence
Master Trickster - you know the cantrip Minor Illusion and may cast it for free twice per day.

Deep Gnome
+1 Dexterity
Keen Sense - Gain Darkvision.  You have training in Dungeoneering, and your party may not be surprised while you are underground.
Caralon, I would say that's starting to be good, but I would make Rock Gnomes a bit different and add a third subrace, Wood Gnome, that's more like your Rock Gnome, only +1 Charisma.  Rock Gnome can be +1 Intelligence, and perhaps have something to do with lorecraft (like the Gnomes of Eberron which tend to be very learned).  Or wrap Gadgeteer into Rock Gnome – the Tinker Gnome isn't something all Gnome players want; give Master Trickster to Wood Gnome, and then and give all gnomes something else, like Lorecraft. 

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

All good points, Marandahir.  I really struggled with it because 4th was my first edition and nobody played a gnome - so the 4th rules were my starting point and then I started looking further back.
I have much the same problem Caralon. I tried to get into AD&D when I was a kid but my friends weren't up for it and then I tried 3.0 when it came out but had the same problem. I finally was able to get into it up at the Grand Canyon because it turns out there is NOTHING to do up here after you've hiked the Canyon.

My trick for trying to adjust stuff to make it a bit more versatile is to check out the PDFs that are online from previous editions or from Wiki articles. Then I try to throw in my own perspective of how it would make sense for a class to work (though I do tend to miss a bit).

Keep it up!

Also, I am loving your Gnome so far. You should do a full write-up and get it online so people can play your Gnomes more fully, I know a few people are already using my Bard in their next playtest. You can put in some racial notes, Cultural Details (Align, religeon, languages, common names, etc) and then iron out all of your types of Adventuring Gnomes (mostly what you have above).

Stuff like that is what these playtests are all about! 
Do you guys think the Minor Illusion cantrip is too powerful?

How about this for a Wood Gnome:

Wood Gnome

+1 Charisma
Forest Spirit: When moving in outdoor areas, wood gnomes may pass through earth and dirt structures.  Wood gnomes may move through the ground, but must count the distance for moving down into and up out of the ground.
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