Nothing extra for the fighter not even an extra attack.

At this point I still can't play a simple fighter in 5e.   Is anyone is happy with the fighter class?   Those who want more complex build options get nothing and those who want a more simple fighter are cut off.   

I'm very disappointed that the extra attack at 6th level was taken away.     It's not even an option at any level nor is it a maneuver.     
 
Maybe I'm just overreacting.  Perhaps they spent most of their time designing the cleric (good job btw), but I'm still not excited with the 5e fighter at all.   I shouldn't be siting here wanting to play my 2e fighter over the version we now have.    


Is anyone is happy with the fighter class?


Generally.  I like the parry mechanic, the MDD, and the ability to trade MDD for using maneuvers.  It could be better, but it's been a lot worse.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Is anyone is happy with the fighter class?


Generally.  I like the parry mechanic, the MDD, and the ability to trade MDD for using maneuvers.  It could be better, but it's been a lot worse.




Why do the designers insist on taking basic combat options and turning them into contrived options?

I'm reading these so called options and I just don't get it.  Why is parry built into the class build?

Anyone with a weapon should be able to parry.   In fact, I already have a house rule that allows anyone to parry an attack.  All you need do is hit the same AC as the attacker did.     In 2e, you could simply use one of your extra attacks to parry.     So as far as I'm concerned they have provided nothing new here.  

The parry option in the play test doesn't even say if it can be used to defend another.      Worse the parry option only reduces damage which is stupid.    The primary function of a parry is to prevent an opponent's attack from landing not absorb damage.  

Imagine this...

You are protecting the king tonight.   You hear a noice in his chamber and rush in just as an assassin's blade is about to plunge into his heart.    You rush in to parry the blow and you perform the parry expertly, but the king still dies.  The reason, is that no about of damage reduction from your pathetic dice will suffice.   





I too think the fighter is neat. Al the basic options (trip, push, disarm, grab) and the like are still in the how to play document. The fighter's maneuvers give him the ability to do that plus a little more. And, in this edition, only fighters parry effectively (just like only rogues are great at quick, on the fly manipulation). So. I see no reason that should not be the case. It can be, but it does not have to be. And your parry house rule can exist side by side with the current fighter parry. Anyone can parry by readying an action, and then making an attack against an AC of his foes attack roll (as a reaction) to block the attack. A fighter can also parry by just using his parry dice (to do what anyone can do, but a little bit better, just like he can with all his other maneuvers). Also, nobody has access to the fighter specific maneuvers but the fighter, so he does seem unique. 

I could see the ability to parry reducing damage- the intent is to either block harm or reduce it. You can parry an incoming blow by deflecting it but still be nicked by the blade or smashed by a bludgeon weapon attack.

I think one of the intent of D&D Next is to mesh in feats with character builds. The Rogue can learn how to parry but it will him options- or something like that.



I too think the fighter is neat. Al the basic options (trip, push, disarm, grab) and the like are still in the how to play document. The fighter's maneuvers give him the ability to do that plus a little more. And, in this edition, only fighters parry effectively (just like only rogues are great at quick, on the fly manipulation). So. I see no reason that should not be the case. It can be, but it does not have to be. And your parry house rule can exist side by side with the current fighter parry. Anyone can parry by readying an action, and then making an attack against an AC of his foes attack roll (as a reaction) to block the attack. A fighter can also parry by just using his parry dice (to do what anyone can do, but a little bit better, just like he can with all his other maneuvers). Also, nobody has access to the fighter specific maneuvers but the fighter, so he does seem unique. 




I like the rolling eye emoticon- not demeaning, dismissive or rude in any way at all. Nope- not one bit.

Fighters shouldn't be the only ones who parry effectively. Swashbuckling rogues should be great at it and monks should be just as effective at parrying with their hands. 



Fighters shouldn't be the only ones who parry effectively. Swashbuckling rogues should be great at it and monks should be just as effective at parrying with their hands. 




Not every class can have everything. I see no reason why the fighter should not be the best at parry. And, as for those swashbuckling rogues, they have a number of defensive schemes as is. Monks gain a number of defensive bonuses as well. 
I could see the ability to parry reducing damage- the intent is to either block harm or reduce it. You can parry an incoming blow by deflecting it but still be nicked by the blade or smashed by a bludgeon weapon attack.

I think one of the intent of D&D Next is to mesh in feats with character builds. The Rogue can learn how to parry but it will him options- or something like that.



Yeah I'm not a fan of a system that takes common actions like Parry and Trip and tries to repackage them into shiney new toys.      

What they should do is create a bunch of common actions for everyone (including  monsters) and then give the martial classes ways to improve those actions.    

As per my example, the Parry power in the playtest is flawed because the king still dies.  This version of parry only caters to those who salivate over mechanical details, and it does so regardless of how counterintuitive the mechanics might be in play.    







Fighters shouldn't be the only ones who parry effectively. Swashbuckling rogues should be great at it and monks should be just as effective at parrying with their hands. 




Not every class can have everything. I see no reason why the fighter should not be the best at parry. And, as for those swashbuckling rogues, they have a number of defensive schemes as is. Monks gain a number of defensive bonuses as well. 



But the problem is that in this version the fighter sucks at parrying.    He can't even parry a strike from a longsword with a d6.  So unless he uses enough martial damage dice to parry the entire amount ( i.e. he is high enough level) it just doesn't work.    I also wonder if the fighter must declare all the dice he is going to use before he uses them, or can he keep rolling until all the damage is absorbed?      On top of that, if your fighter is using a bow or crossbow you can't parry either because it only works if you have a melee weapon, which seems rather strange.          
 


At this point I still can't play a simple fighter in 5e.   Is anyone is happy with the fighter class?

How is this not a simple fighter?  
You hit stuff, and do lot's of damage.  
1/round you can roll your skill dice to reduce the damage of a melee attack.
Optional:  You can trade damage for other effects.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Yeah, I've been complaining non-stop that the Fighter in every playtest so far has been too simple, boring, and mundane.
...whatever
But the problem is that in this version the fighter sucks at parrying.    He can't even parry a strike from a longsword with a d6.  So unless he uses enough martial damage dice to parry the entire amount ( i.e. he is high enough level) it just doesn't work.    I also wonder if the fighter must declare all the dice he is going to use before he uses them, or can he keep rolling until all the damage is absorbed?      On top of that, if your fighter is using a bow or crossbow you can't parry either because it only works if you have a melee weapon, which seems rather strange. 

The fighter can't put out a strong defense and a strong offense at the same time, no.

And even if you do parry, your likely to take some damage from the shock of the blades.

Dice declaration could use some clarification.

Weapon swaping is free, so shoot and swap.  Though i don't think it strange that you couldn't parry with a bow or x-bow.  If you did, they weapon would be destroyed.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

At this point I still can't play a simple fighter in 5e.   Is anyone is happy with the fighter class?

How is this not a simple fighter?  
You hit stuff, and do lot's of damage.  
1/round you can roll your skill dice to reduce the damage of a melee attack.
Optional:  You can trade damage for other effects.



I'd rather have extra attacks than any of the maneuvers.   I get only one action per round and I can't do anything else unless I use a maneuver.    At this point I can't play a simple fighter that makes use of improvised actions.

IMO, Parry is contrived and so are a few of the other maneuvers.       Parry, trip, charge, blind, called shot, etc are just things I tell the DM I'm doing with one of my attacks.     

In 2e, I didn't need any contrived options, I told the DM,  "I'm going trip that guy, stab him with my sword, and then disarm the guy attacking the wizard.     

This is why I was very happy when I saw the extra attack at 6th level in the last playtest.  It ment that I could return to a style of play that I enjoyed.




 


I dont like the fighter, I dont like the cleric, I dont like the rogue and I dont like the wizard. community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758....
Wotc hit a Grand Slam for the SF Giants and Im a Dodger fan.

I looked for that extra attack too. 

So its official just one attack? Wow


Maybe I have it backwards and the fighter is just a lazy abstract simulation. Surely an experienced warrior can attack more than once in six seconds. It seems like, maybe that the multiple attacks however realistic and sensible they might be gets in the way of damage scale math. The fighter just comes off as an hp draining algorithm.


 
I get only one action per round and I can't do anything else unless I use a maneuver.    At this point I can't play a simple fighter that makes use of improvised actions.

Which is the same as any other class...

Thats said...  i'm all for improv.

Improvise Maneuver (free to all martial classes):  When you take another action, and at your DM's discretion, you can spend one or more martial damage die to pull a stunt, such as flipping a table over for cover, or pulling a rug out from beneath enemies, or cutting a rope that holds the chandler.  The more complex, time consuming, or vigorus the stunt, the more dice it takes.  You still need to make the appropriate DC check if applicable.

Examples:

1 die:
Flip a small table over for cover.
Break a delicate object (glass, paper).
Cut a light rope.
Operate a large switch or lever.

2 die:
Flip a medium table over.
Pull a small carpet out from under someone.
Cut a heavy rope.
Operate a small switch or lever.

3 die:
Flip a large table over.
Cut a light chain.
Break an average object (chair, light wooden door).
Operate an intricate switch or lever.

4 die:
Cut a medium chain.
Flip a banquet table over.

5 die:
Cut a heavy chain.
Break a tough object (heavy wooded door).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Surely an experienced warrior can attack more than once in six seconds. It seems like, maybe that the multiple attacks however realistic and sensible they might be gets in the way of damage scale math. The fighter just comes off as an hp draining algorithm. 

Multiple attacks take too long.  That's the biggest reason.

And muliple attacks is still an HP draining algorithm.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I get only one action per round and I can't do anything else unless I use a maneuver.    At this point I can't play a simple fighter that makes use of improvised actions.

Which is the same as any other class...

Thats said...  i'm all for improv.

Improvise Maneuver (free to all martial classes):  When you take another action, and at your DM's discretion, you can spend one or more martial damage die to pull a stunt, such as flipping a table over for cover, or pulling a rug out from beneath enemies, or cutting a rope that holds the chandler.  The more complex, time consuming, or vigorus the stunt, the more dice it takes.  You still need to make the appropriate DC check if applicable.

Examples:

1 die:
Flip a small table over for cover.
Break a delicate object (glass, paper).
Cut a light rope.
Operate a large switch or lever.

2 die:
Flip a medium table over.
Pull a small carpet out from under someone.
Cut a heavy rope.
Operate a small switch or lever.

3 die:
Flip a large table over.
Cut a light chain.
Break an average object (chair, light wooden door).
Operate an intricate switch or lever.

4 die:
Cut a medium chain.
Flip a banquet table over.

5 die:
Cut a heavy chain.
Break a tough object (heavy wooded door).



I don't have anything to add to this, but I wanted to say I like it, and to thank you for at least posting an idea, rather than just saying some other idea sucks. 

Personally, I like the fighter, I think it's an impressive mix of simple with options.  I think it's fairly ridiculous to complain that the fighter seems to just be designed to make the math work . . . when the math doesn't work there are ten times the complaints. 

I like parry a lot.  Mathematically you are trading PC hitpoints for monster hitpoints.  PC hitpoints are a more valuable commodity in combat (generally speaking there will be more total enemy hitpoints), but removing monster hitpoints eventually removes monsters.  It looks like an elegant mechanic to me.
I actually am pleased with what I've read. I have yet to see one in play. As such, I can't really speak to it in detail.
I will say it seems far less simple. That's good in my book. I guess the easiest way to dial it down is don't use maneuvers, and put all martial dice into damage.

Do OAs get MD? I think so...
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning." -Mike Mearls
Do OAs get MD? I think so...

I think it's 1/round.

So if you use it on an OA, you don't use it on parry or your basic attack.

But it might be 1/turn... 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Surely an experienced warrior can attack more than once in six seconds. It seems like, maybe that the multiple attacks however realistic and sensible they might be gets in the way of damage scale math. The fighter just comes off as an hp draining algorithm. 

Multiple attacks take too long.  That's the biggest reason.



Roll dice apply damage.   why does that take so long?

Multi-attacks don't take long at all.  I never had that problem in 2e.  

Even as a DM I run through die rolls like a mad man.    What slows things down is when you have dozens of options to chose from each turn.


I get only one action per round and I can't do anything else unless I use a maneuver.    At this point I can't play a simple fighter that makes use of improvised actions.

Which is the same as any other class...

Thats said...  i'm all for improv.

Improvise Maneuver (free to all martial classes):  When you take another action, and at your DM's discretion, you can spend one or more martial damage die to pull a stunt, such as flipping a table over for cover, or pulling a rug out from beneath enemies, or cutting a rope that holds the chandler.  The more complex, time consuming, or vigorus the stunt, the more dice it takes.  You still need to make the appropriate DC check if applicable.

Examples:

1 die:
Flip a small table over for cover.
Break a delicate object (glass, paper).
Cut a light rope.
Operate a large switch or lever.

2 die:
Flip a medium table over.
Pull a small carpet out from under someone.
Cut a heavy rope.
Operate a small switch or lever.

3 die:
Flip a large table over.
Cut a light chain.
Break an average object (chair, light wooden door).
Operate an intricate switch or lever.

4 die:
Cut a medium chain.
Flip a banquet table over.

5 die:
Cut a heavy chain.
Break a tough object (heavy wooded door).



I appreciate the attempt to provide a solution.

but using combat dice to break an object or cut a rope?   Why is a class mechanic required for that?   Just let the player do it.   Why make the game more complicated?



Multiple attacks take too long.  That's the biggest reason.

And muliple attacks is still an HP draining algorithm.




Even with my ADD I read dumping an attack for damage scale as efficiency overkill.  

I appreciate the attempt to provide a solution.

but using combat dice to break an object or cut a rope?   Why is a class mechanic required for that?   Just let the player do it.   Why make the game more complicated?

It requires a class mechanic to do it while doing something else.  Like attacking.

If you just want to cut a rope, then simply use your action to do so.

If you want to cut a rope while stabbing an orc, then you can't stab him quite as hard.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Look at Combat Surge. Fighter gets more than one attack at 11nth level. Well kinda. It is now once per day with every other level giving you a chance ot do it more times per day.

But the problem is that in this version the fighter sucks at parrying.    He can't even parry a strike from a longsword with a d6.  So unless he uses enough martial damage dice to parry the entire amount ( i.e. he is high enough level) it just doesn't work.    I also wonder if the fighter must declare all the dice he is going to use before he uses them, or can he keep rolling until all the damage is absorbed?      On top of that, if your fighter is using a bow or crossbow you can't parry either because it only works if you have a melee weapon, which seems rather strange.

    

Are not the Fighter's Feests (sic) made of Steel?

Translation: There's nothing stopping the Fighter from parrying unarmed, even just one hand.

Look at Combat Surge. Fighter gets more than one attack at 11nth level. Well kinda. It is now once per day with every other level giving you a chance ot do it more times per day.



I'm surprised there isn't a greater uproar to that and the Rogue's Ace in the Hole ability...

Mellored, it's 1/turn. I think that makes OAs pretty crazy, right? I know mmearls mentioned something to give fighters the deadly strike equivalent frequently. Hrm... does this all mean a fighter has the option of MD+SD each turn when parrying? It makes multiple attacks from one enemy kinda interesting.
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning." -Mike Mearls
I get only one action per round and I can't do anything else unless I use a maneuver.    At this point I can't play a simple fighter that makes use of improvised actions.

Which is the same as any other class...

Thats said...  i'm all for improv.

Improvise Maneuver (free to all martial classes):  When you take another action, and at your DM's discretion, you can spend one or more martial damage die to pull a stunt, such as flipping a table over for cover, or pulling a rug out from beneath enemies, or cutting a rope that holds the chandler.  The more complex, time consuming, or vigorus the stunt, the more dice it takes.  You still need to make the appropriate DC check if applicable.

Examples:

1 die:
Flip a small table over for cover.
Break a delicate object (glass, paper).
Cut a light rope.
Operate a large switch or lever.

2 die:
Flip a medium table over.
Pull a small carpet out from under someone.
Cut a heavy rope.
Operate a small switch or lever.

3 die:
Flip a large table over.
Cut a light chain.
Break an average object (chair, light wooden door).
Operate an intricate switch or lever.

4 die:
Cut a medium chain.
Flip a banquet table over.

5 die:
Cut a heavy chain.
Break a tough object (heavy wooded door).



I like that idea a lot...


What they should do is create a bunch of common actions for everyone (including  monsters) and then give the martial classes ways to improve those actions.    




That's exactly, identically, what they have done.  Knock down, disarm, push are there for everyone.  Bull rush, trip, and the fighter maneuver disarm are ways to improve those actions.  But thanks for insulting everyone else while you were demonstrating that you were criticising something you hadn't read and feeling superior about it.  As for "can't save the king," there are in fact several ways you can, not least of which is the fact that protect has enough DR to actually turn most hits into misses.  There are so many very good reasons to not like the fighter, do you have to make up stuff?


What they should do is create a bunch of common actions for everyone (including  monsters) and then give the martial classes ways to improve those actions.    




That's exactly, identically, what they have done.  Knock down, disarm, push are there for everyone.  Bull rush, trip, and the fighter maneuver disarm are ways to improve those actions.  But thanks for insulting everyone else while you were demonstrating that you were criticising something you hadn't read and feeling superior about it.  As for "can't save the king," there are in fact several ways you can, not least of which is the fact that protect has enough DR to actually turn most hits into misses.  There are so many very good reasons to not like the fighter, do you have to make up stuff?



No it is not the same thing.     Everyone can't parry, only the fighter can.   What about bull rush?  Why can't everyone charge like they could in AD&D?   Why do you need to spend dice to perform simple combat maneuvers?    Do you really think that knock down is the same thing as trip?  Perhaps you should read the rules.   If that is the case then the naming conventions are terrible. I think that if the base ability is called knockdown, then fighter should simply have an improvied knockdown ability/feat.    

As for saving the king, sure there are several ways to save him, but not with a parry, therefore my point still stands regardless of how many straws you try to graps at.   The parry maneuver is counterintuitive to what people normally consider a Parry to be.   IMO, Parry has nothing to do with damage reduction.   

Regardless, my main point is that with AD&D the fighter was very simple and wasn't restricted to options granted by a contrived character build.    You had several attacks per round and a huge list of options to pick from for each attack and if that wasn't enough you just used an improvised action.    The problem with the playtest is that basic actions that were common to all fighters are now part of the character build process.     Contrived options are not the way to make old school gamers happy.     




 

I'm surprised there isn't a greater uproar to that and the Rogue's Ace in the Hole ability...


There is so much wrong we havent got to that yet


What they should do is create a bunch of common actions for everyone (including  monsters) and then give the martial classes ways to improve those actions.    




That's exactly, identically, what they have done.  Knock down, disarm, push are there for everyone.  Bull rush, trip, and the fighter maneuver disarm are ways to improve those actions.  But thanks for insulting everyone else while you were demonstrating that you were criticising something you hadn't read and feeling superior about it.  As for "can't save the king," there are in fact several ways you can, not least of which is the fact that protect has enough DR to actually turn most hits into misses.  There are so many very good reasons to not like the fighter, do you have to make up stuff?



No it is not the same thing.     Everyone can't parry, only the fighter can.   What about bull rush?  Why can't everyone charge like they could in AD&D?   Why do you need to spend dice to perform simple combat maneuvers?    Do you really think that knock down is the same thing as trip?  Perhaps you should read the rules.   If that is the case then the naming conventions are terrible. I think that if the base ability is called knockdown, then fighter should simply have an improvied knockdown ability/feat.    

As for saving the king, sure there are several ways to save him, but not with a parry, therefore my point still stands regardless of how many straws you try to graps at.   The parry maneuver is counterintuitive to what people normally consider a Parry to be.   IMO, Parry has nothing to do with damage reduction.   

Regardless, my main point is that with AD&D the fighter was very simple and wasn't restricted to options granted by a contrived character build.    You had several attacks per round and a huge list of options to pick from for each attack and if that wasn't enough you just used an improvised action.    The problem with the playtest is that basic actions that were common to all fighters are now part of the character build process.     Contrived options are not the way to make old school gamers happy.     







1) everyone can parry, it's just not called parry.  It's called having HP.  

2) Yes, actually, trip and knock down are the same thing.  Maybe you should read the rules:

Knock Down
You knock a creature prone, provided it is no
more than one size category larger than you, by
making a successful Strength check against that
creature’s Strength or Dexterity check (the
creature chooses the ability).


Trip
You use your attack to drive your enemy to the
ground.
Effect: When you hit a creature that is your
size or smaller with a melee weapon attack, you can spend one martial damage die to knock that creature prone.  If you instead spend two dice, you can use this maneuver when attacking a creature that is one size larger than you.

As to bull rush, it's just an improved version of Push.  Charge? It's called using your move, and then making a melee attack.  

4) Actually, you very much can save the king with protect, which is the version of parry that works on other people.  If you roll high enough on your MDD to negate all damage, which isn't hard given how much MDD you get and how little damage they get.  And then there's the fact that the existence of a maneuver called "protect" doesn't preclude you making an opposed strength check to block the attack.  You could even call that opposed strength check "parry."

Really, most of your complaints boil down to "they named it wrong" (except for the ones that boil down to "I haven't read the rules").  Why not complain about the legitimately bad design calls?  I don't even disagree that this effort to codify everything into maneuvers that you have to choose a limited number of is a bad call, but it's being drowned out by the ridiculousness and the insults.